From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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Tyrion hears the crowd shouting Joff’s name and reflects that in three years the boy will be King in his own right and that Tyrion had best be far away. e thinks about Oldtown or Braavos.

Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

They passed the rest of the journey in silence. After a while, Tyrion found himself hoping that Sansa would say something, anything, the merest word, but she never spoke.

Tyrion finally manages to get to a loo, and then meets Pod outside his chamber, who tells him his new doublet is in there. He reflects that Shae and Sansa will be in there as well. He reflects on the wedding between Highgarden and Casterly Rock and thinks after what happened to Stannis and Robb, who would be mad enough to contest Joff’s reign now. He thinks that the Riverlands will soon all have yielded and that Paxter Redwyne’s fleet will sail up and crush Stannis’s pirates. The war is almost over.

When he enters the bed chamber he sees Shae helping Sansa to dress.

Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears.

He looks at Sansa and thinks

Tyrion had never seen her look more lovely, yet she wore sorrow on those long satin sleeves.

Tyrion tells Sansa she will be the most beautiful woman in the hall. Shae asks if she can attend and Sansa uncertain, tells her that the Queen has choosen all the servers.

When they are ready Tyrion takes Sansa by the arm to go to the feast. Outside the main hall he takes her around the yard to perform the necessary courtesies.

She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he'd left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel's hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he'd had the sense to love her.

Lady Olenna Tyrell, in a gown of gold, stops to talk to them and tells Sansa she looks exquisite, but the wind has been playing with her hair. She tucks in the loose strands. She tells her she is sorry to hear about her losses, and although he was a terrible traitor, we can’t have men murdered at Wedding Feasts. She then invites Sansa to go to Highgarden with her the day after next.

"You are too kind, my lady," said Sansa, "but my place is with my lord husband."

Lady Tyrell then turns to Tyrion and says she didn’t mean to steal his lovely wife, but assumed he would be off leading a host to battle. Tyrion says it will be a host of Dragons and Lady Tyrell makes a joke about collecting Dwarf’s pennies. As they depart to go into the feast Lady Tyrell says to Sansa

"Well, off with you, child, and try to be merrier.

As they walk into the hall,

Tyrion clutched Sansa's arm and made the walk with a heavy waddling stride. … Tyrion wondered which of them looked more absurd, him with Sansa or the wizened little woman between her seven-foot-tall twin guardsmen.

Joff and Margaery ride into the hall on white chargers. He and Sansa have been seated at the far right of the table beside Ser Garlan and his wife. There are toasts and the first of the 77 courses are served. Sansa has one mouthful and pushes her spoon away. He asks if it is not to her liking.

She fiddled nervously with her hair and looked down the table to where Joffrey sat with his Tyrell queen.

Does she wish it were her in Margaery's place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense. He turned away, wanting distraction, but everywhere he looked were women, fair fine beautiful happy women who belonged to other men.

He looks at other couples around the room and after seeing a man kiss his wife, wonders

what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now. Flinch away, most likely. Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine. If he told her that he wished to have her maidenhead tonight, she would suffer that dutifully as well, and weep no more than she had to.

There are more courses and entertainment and several singers. Tyrion asks Sansa which she prefers.

'I ... I'm sorry, my lord. I was not listening." She was not eating, either. "Sansa, is aught amiss?" He spoke without thinking, and instantly felt the fool. All her kin are slaughtered and she's wed to me, and I wonder what's amiss.

"No, my lord." She looked away from him, and feigned an unconvincing interest in Moon Boy pelting Ser Dontos with dates.

An other singer comes forward to sing about the BBW. Tyrion makes jests about the song with Ser Garlan and his wife. When Tyrion is left out of the song, Ser Garlan tells his wife about Tyrion’s chain across the river and how helpful it was. Tyrion feels very grateful for this. During the song, there are verses about the bravery of Queen Cersei

"She never did that," Sansa blurted out suddenly.

Tyrion tells her not to believe anything she hears in a song.

There are more courses until Joff calls forth the royal jesters. Then two dwarfs come in on a pig and a dog with the colours of House Stark and House Baratheon on them and joust to much amusement. Tyrion notes that of

Of all those at the high table, only Sansa Stark was not smiling. He could have loved her for that, but if truth be told the Stark girl's eyes were far away, as if she had not even seen the ludicrous riders loping toward her.

Joff then challenges Tyrion to be the champion and Tyrion says only if he faces Joff as that’s the only man he has a chance of beating. Everyone laughs, but Joff is furious. The jousters leave the hall and Joff pours wine over Tyrion’s head. Ser Garlan tells the King it was ill done and Joff and Tyrion publically argue. Queen Margaery defuses the situation and Tywin announces the Pie has been brought in and Margaery and Joff go to cut the Pidgeon pie. Tyrion is made Joff’s cupbearer.

They use Ser Ilyn’s sword.

Sansa stirred in her seat. "What sword is that?" Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?"

I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.

They cut the pie and pigeons fly out. Slices of pie are served, but Tyrion doesn’t want his.

Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said. "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."

Before they can leave Joff makes Tyrion his cupbearer again. Joff drinks and eats some pie, which he says is dry. He drinks some more and then begins to choke. There is a frantic scene and Joff is dying. Tyrion looks round to see how Sansa is taking this and can’t see her. He sees the chalice on the floor and pours out its contents. Guests are fleeing the hall, and he thinks he should leave too. Instead he goes to comfort Cersei, but she demands his and Sansa’s arrest for poisoning Joff.

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Analysis

There is a lot in this chapter of how Sansa is viewed by Tyrion and how others interact with her, and knowing what we know about her escape plans, how her behaviour is misinterpreted.

While Tyrion appreciates her beauty and wants to comfort her, he seems completely vexed by who or what would please her as a person.

His descriptions of her all seem to echo coldness and armour and grief and weeping, like the Wall in the North.

“Her own eyes were big and blue and empty.”

“She looked sad”

“Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look;”

“met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.”

“ grief,”

“tears. “

“Tyrion had never seen her look more lovely, yet she wore sorrow on those long satin sleeves. “

"deathly pale”

Everything in this chapter highlights how miserable and depressed Sansa is.

He does however see what she does well and that is courtly courtesy. Indeed we see as Sansa interacts with people how well they respond to her. She maybe shunned at other times, but that does not mean people do not pity her or not know about the awful things that have happened to her. Tyrion observes this:

She is good at this,”

“She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he'd had the sense to love her. “

Again this could be foreshadowing of Sansa marrying (F)Aegon, as he has very similar thoughts about (F)Aegon when he meets him and how any girl in Westeros would fall for him. Indeed both of those characters have been trained for a role King and High Lady from birth. While all noble girls are trained to be as such, we know from AGOT onwards that Sansa excels in this.

We also see that Tyrion completely has no idea about her true character:

She fiddled nervously with her hair and looked down the table to where Joffrey sat with his Tyrell queen.

Does she wish it were her in Margaery's place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense. “

Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine. If he told her that he wished to have her maidenhead tonight, she would suffer that dutifully as well, and weep no more than she had to.

Obviously we know she is nervous about the escape and it has been a trying and humiliating day already. Tyrion thinking she wants to be in Margaery’s place shows how little he knows her. Also the line, She is nothing if not dutiful, is also ironic as she has been playing a part in order to get out of captivity. While he is imagining a life together, she is plotting to escape. It never crosses his mind that she may do this.

The last part about taking her maidenhead, sent a slight shiver down my spine as it could be read that Tyrion was already beginning to think about requesting such a thing and breaking yet another vow to her. It could however just be a reflection on what he assumes is her dutiful nature.

We again see that she avoids interacting with him as much as possible:

“She took it dutifully, but he could feel her stiffness as they walked up the aisle together. She never once looked down at him.”

“Sansa had no choice but to look at him then. “

“They passed the rest of the journey in silence. After a while, Tyrion found himself hoping that Sansa would say something, anything, the merest word, but she never spoke.”

Also in this and the previous chapter it is noticeable that several times she starts to say something but changes it from her true statement to a polite courtesy answer: "I ... yes, my lord. As you say." “, 'I ... I'm sorry” etc. There are two occasions in the feast that do make her speak her mind

"She never did that," Sansa blurted out suddenly.”

“Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?"

Even Tyrion seems aghast when he realizes that Tywin has had Ice melted down. This is yet another humiliation for Sansa. It also brings up another problem with the proposed plan that Tyrion should rule Winterfell and that is he cannot act like a Northman and perform things such as executions himself. The difference between Southron and Northern culture is quite large.

Again we have a slightly bitter view of Sansa in terms of Tyrion’s remembering that she wouldn’t kneel for him.

He made certain not to look at Sansa, lest his bitterness show in his eyes. You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

Given the wedding was forced, she was sobbing and was facing him raping her later that evening (although thankfully that didn’t happen), I am amazed he can’t understand why she wouldn’t have been concerned about his dignity. His selfishness in this case is quite ridiculous. The fact he is still bitter about it also highlights the danger of showing any defiance to the Lannisters and that had she resisted further the day may have turned even more unpleasant for her.

We also see that although Tyrion was horrified that Joff had tried to kill Bran, he obviously had previously thought it was his sister or Jaime, which again begs the question, when he knew the Lannisters were guilty and that he was coveringup for them, why would he be so cross when taken prisoner by Cat. He never seems to see that his tacit role in covering up other’s crimes or depending or the crimes of others (Robb’s murder, Sansa’s forced marriage) to benefit him, are things he should take partial responsibility for.

Also despite knowing this, he offers to take her to the Rock (where there will be more Lannisters) and show her where Jaime (who tried to kill her brother) and he played as children. This highlights the gulf between them: even Tyrion’s happy childhood memories and places he loves will be ones where she does not wish to go or see. Although the line about “Only a Lannister could love the Rock” could be foreshadowing that she will like it there, as she is a Lannister. Although again this only works if the “opposite” trope is being used and the forced bride / unwilling girl who eventually comes to love her captor / abductor is a rather tired one in fiction and one we have already had with Khal Drogo and Dany and that marriage came without the baggage of her husband being part of the family that had slaughtered hers and kept her prisoner.

We also see a brief glimpse of how Olenna Tyrell sees her

"Well, off with you, child, and try to be merrier.

This would seem to indicate, along with Tyrion’s views on her misery, that it was very obvious to everyone that she was deeply unhappy.

We also get one glimpse that Sansa was slightly more astute than Tyrion in regards to the Loras, Marg and Joff situation.

Tyrion thinks:

But who will protect her from Joff? Tyrion glanced at the Knight of Flowers, standing with the other Kingsguard. You had best keep your sword well honed, Ser Loras.

But he doesn’t see or reflect on the implications of the statement: that this mix of people is a disaster waiting to happen.

Sansa in two chapers previous to this had already been thinking:

Joff might restrain himself for a few turns, perhaps aslong as a year, but soon or late he will show his claws, and when he does ... The realm might have a second Kingslayer, and there would be war inside the city, as the men of the lion and the men of the rose made the gutters run red.

We see from this chapter that no one has a clue that Sansa is capable of being part of an escape plan and that generally she is incredibly unhappy. We also see that she and Tyrion's marriage is a disaster. He does not really want to face who she is and is still longing for Tysha 2.0, while she is maintaining a safe distance and not letting him see any of her true self at all.

Also apologies for the lateness…..concert last night….didn’t get home until gone 1...or 2. Damn real life!

Also there is some new thing about too many quotes in a post, so I have had to split this one up into three!!

[Lyanna Stark]

Great summary Rapsie!

Poor Sansa. These chapters really are her low point. :(

It's amusing in an odd sort of way that Tyrion can tell she's deflecting everything with a sullen wall of courtesy, but that he so badly fails to understand what lies beneath. Overall, Tyrion in these chapters seems a worse judge of character than Sansa, who saw Kingslayer stew version 2.0 a mile off. Perhaps it's easier for her to spot since she has herself been a victim of Joffrey and know better what he is like. Tyrion has seen it, but has never been on the receiving end of it. He does think Loras needs to keep his sword close, but Tyrion fails to reflect on something his brother Jaime could have told him: the KG protects the king, they don't protect people *from* the king (unless maybe you count the Hound who did what he could). Sansa knows this only too well.

I had missed this on the last read through, but Tyrion asks Sansa if anything is amiss and she looks at bloody Dontos. 0.o But Tyrion finds it unconvincing. Oh dear. Sansa is very likely "far away" since she's thinking about the escape, but nobody understands that, and here she even slips a bit in front of Tyrion but he has no clue. She can't eat due to nervousness about the escape, but everyone assumes she's depressed or even envious.

Another thing that stands out in this chapter is that Tyrion finds Sansa at least as beautiful as Margaery Tyrell, if not more so. Sansa is still very young here, and has a bit of growing to do, meaning if she continues as she has, she ought to be a real stunner in a few years. This also helps highlight that Tyrion is still rather hung up on surface deep things, like prettiness, while Sansa has already started looking beyond the surface and beneath. Tyrion again gets stuck on that Sansa must be shallow and just fancy pretty things since he thinks she envies Margaery the pretty wedding and thinks that maybe she'd like to be Margaery, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Again Tyrion's wish to be loved shines through. He resents Sansa for not bending her "stiff Stark knees" although it's a forced wedding, and he seems to be in a mood because she hides behind her courtesy. This weakness keeps on being hammered home during ASOS, up to and including how his father also doesn't love him. His thoughts on what Sansa would say if he demanded her maidenhead seems to fall into this category, as he seems rather bitter about it. Not to the point of putting all the blame on her (although he does seem to feel quite a bit of annoyance regarding her behaviour), but more a raging against life, the universe, everything, who saddled him with a very pretty wife who doesn't want anything to do with him.

EDIT: spelling

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@ Lyanna Stark

Great post! Excellent point about her looking at Ser Dontos! I missed that completely.

Edit: Also in terms of foreshadowing and Cersei's Prophecy, I notice Olenna Tyrell was wearing a gold gown, which may equal the golden shroud idea. Rather than Cersei's idea that they will wear golden shrouds, perhaps those that will cause their deaths are shrouded in gold.

I think it was in the first or second thread, where it was highlighted that there are only 3 instances of completely gold gowns: 1. Is Sansa in her dream in AGOT where everyone comes to pay her homage, 2. Cersei at the triumphal entrance of Tywin to court after the BBW and 3. Olenna Tyrell.

Again this could be another foreshadowing that Sansa maybe the younger queen.

[Queen of Winter]

Wow, that was a long post Rapsie!

I'll be back later on, but I wanted to touch on this first:

He made certain not to look at Sansa, lest his bitterness show in his eyes. You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

I, for one, have always loved the fact that she outright refused to kneel. :D (I think I even cheered aloud when I read it in the book). Sansa's not been able to do too much to protest against her captivity (considering when she's spoken out of turn', she's been beaten) or her treatment, and I feel this was a brave move on her part. This marriage was something she definitely didn't want, and even though it was a small action in choosing not to kneel, it made a big impact. It made me literally think "I will not bend, I will not break". B)

She is good at this,” “She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he'd had the sense to love her. “

I think no matter where Sansa is, or who/what she becomes, that she will always retain those qualities. It's just something that's part of her personality. And you're right, many of the people who were at the wedding don't know what she's endured. It's not their fault she is where she is, so I can't see her being anything but courteous to them. :)

[brashcandy]

Tyrion's absolute indulgence in self pity and the need for self-validation are what stood out for me in this chapter, especially as it contrasts with the lack of such "weaknesses" in Sansa's character. Yes, Sansa might have been miserable and depressed for a long time due to her circumstances, but she never wallows in pitying herself, and tends to concentrate a lot more on how she can help others, and on simply being brave until she can escape. She's also no longer the idealistic young girl, desiring flattery and compliments from others. As a matter of fact, she is now the one who gives out such things to others, no longer requiring such comments to make her feel special. It really reflects the remarkable growth of her character up to this point. The idealistic, dreamy girl has been replaced with the more mature, pragmatic young lady.

She was the one who was forced to be married, but she can still appreciate the beauty of the ceremony between Joff and Marg. Tyrion, however, is unable to get past his bitterness with Joff, Sansa and the world at large, and this skews his outlook on his wife and her motivations. His constant need to be validated also prevents him from discerning what may have been Garlan Tyrell's true agenda in distracting him with flattery and poisoning the wine. Indeed, in this chapter, Tyrion and Sansa reverse roles, and she becomes the player while he is the pawn. She is plotting her escape, while he is idly thinking that she is dutiful. She is putting people at ease and hiding her true intent while he is continuing to annoy others, most notably, Lady Olenna. She is the one wearing the hairnet, but Tyrion remains blithely unaware of any plot even though he knows of Joff's depravity. Even though Sansa didn't know of the role the hairnet played at this particular time, she is still involved in the scheme. When she deserts the wedding feast, and he remains to console his family, I thought it was fitting irony. Tyrion has always known what his family is capable of, but has nonetheless gone ahead with their cunning and crimes. It's therefore poetic justice that he should end up feeling the sting their bite after refusing to spare others from it.

When Tyrion states that only a Lannister can love the rock, I saw it as a definitive statement that Sansa will never reside there or be happy as Lady Lannister. She has simply never embraced this identity, and has always rejected and resented her marriage to this House. I think this statement foreshadows the eventual power struggle that will occur between the Lannisters for control of Casterly Rock, effectively closing the idea of Tyrion as Lord of Winterfell.

Tyrion's admission that he was foolish to let Joff know that he suspected him in the attempted murder of Bran also confirms how his lack of self control can be damaging- both politically and personally. With Joff growing increasingly unstable, Tyrion's days at court, not to mention his life would have been in jeopardy. Later on, after the jousting dwarf scene, Tyrion again makes the mistake of being goaded by Joffrey's jibes and his own sense of humiliation, getting into an ugly scene with Joff that would have made his guilt more certain in the eyes of many. Tyrion doesn't remember rising, or hopping on the table to confront Joff, but he does so and is then pleased when he is able to make people laugh. Interestingly, when Sansa acts instinctively, or doesn't remember doing something, it's normally in the service of others, as when she calmed the room after Cersei left, or saved Dontos' life.

Sansa's beauty is now becoming a talking point, noticed not just by her husband, and again perhaps another hint of her being the Younger Queen. We also get additional foreshadowing that Tyrion may be the savage giant, or at least suggesting a future confrontation with Littlefinger.

In three years that cruel boy will be a man, ruling in his own right ... and every with half his wits will be a long way from King's Landing. Oldtown, perhaps. Or even the Free Cities. He had always had a yen to see the Titan of Braavos.

[brashcandy]

A couple more points I wanted to make in support of the "Sansa does show political astuteness" side of the debate:

1. Notice what Tyrion states when he sees how Sansa engages with the other nobles around her:

She is good at this

Tyrion realises that what Sansa is doing here isn't simply mere courtesy, but rather a skill that requires thought and application to be successful. He goes on to think that she would have made a good Queen, i.e. she would have been successful in this kind of political environment where one must know how to deal with one's friends and enemies.

2. Sansa's masterful deflection of Lady Olenna's request by making herself appear to be the obedient wife:

"You are too kind, my lady," said Sansa, "but my place is with my lord husband."

Sansa manages here to kill two birds with one stone. We know that she doesn't think Lady Olenna is very kind - given the desertion after the motley wedding, and we know that she firmly doesn't believe that her place is beside Tyrion, but she manages to fool Tyrion into thinking that she has accepted her lot, and also to get out of offending or revealing her true feelings to Lady Olenna. After all, what Lady Olenna was rehashing here was the same old plot that had gotten Sansa in this mess in the first place, and had she gotten flustered or bungled her response in any other way she might have raised Tyrion's suspicions. I think this bold faced request by Olenna might also suggest that the Tyrells were looking to frame Tyrion all along for the murder of Joffrey, but perhaps not Sansa. I am reminded of the old saying, "kill them with kindness" when analysing Sansa's behaviour here. :)

[childofsummer]

Do you think Olenna meant to resurrect the plan to wed Sansa to Willas after Tyrion was executed (presumably) for Joff's murder? If Sansa hadn't disappeared, I wonder whether one or more Tyrells would have surfaced to vouch for Sansa never having been near Joff's cup?

[brashcandy]

Do you think Olenna meant to resurrect the plan to wed Sansa to Willas after Tyrion was executed (presumably) for Joff's murder? If Sansa hadn't disappeared, I wonder whether one or more Tyrells would have surfaced to vouch for Sansa never having been near Joff's cup?

It does seem like this is what was intended. To my mind, it was much too risky, but the Tyrells haven't exactly shown themselves to be considerate people.

And just where have you been hiding, COS! :)

[Summerqueen]

Something that struck me here is how well GRRM shows Tyrion's observation of Sansa's behavior being in keeping with his later suspicion that she actually was the one to poison Joff. Tyrion notices that she doesn't eat or drink much, that she fiddles with her hair, that she seems distracted or nervous. Her remark that her place is with Tyrion may indicate their bargain: if you pin this assassination on him and see him dead, I'll go wherever you want. Looking back, it is easy to think why Tyrion imagines her to be complicit in the assassination attempt.

Do you think Olenna meant to resurrect the plan to wed Sansa to Willas after Tyrion was executed (presumably) for Joff's murder? If Sansa hadn't disappeared, I wonder whether one or more Tyrells would have surfaced to vouch for Sansa never having been near Joff's cup?

I like the idea that Olenna wants to keep Sansa on her string more than I actually believe it. What is the point of sending Sansa to Olenna with the poison hairnet if it isn't part of Olenna and LF's plan that suspicion fall on Sansa? But maybe the idea is that while LF works to remove her from KL, Olenna may hope to closet her away and work on her (threatening to reveal the source of the poison at the opportune moment if she resists). IDK.

[1234567]

Or Olenna and co might have been told Sansa was in on the plan. It is interesting that the only accusation at the Trial leveled at Sansa was from Shae. All the other witnesses, Varys, Kettlebacks etc put the suspicion squarely on Tyrion.

However Loras does later think it was Sansa, and I do wonder given Marg and co ditching her, if it was meant to incriminate her too and a big FU to Tywin, so who knows! Either way it is best to keep away from the Tyrells.

Also Sansa seemed to be at the end of the table with no one but Tyrion next to her. Apart from him no one spoke to her. It really must have been awful.

[Queen Cersei I]

Or Olenna and co might have been told Sansa was in on the plan. It is interesting that the only accusation at the Trial leveled at Sansa was from Shae. All the other witnesses, Varys, Kettlebacks etc put the suspicion squarely on Tyrion.

However Loras does later think it was Sansa, and I do wonder given Marg and co ditching her, if it was meant to incriminate her too and a big FU to Tywin, so who knows! Either way it is best to keep away from the Tyrells.

Also Sansa seemed to be at the end of the table with no one but Tyrion next to her. Apart from him no one spoke to her. It really must have been awful.

You know reading these chapters in review along with Margary's parts in AFFC, I think that the Queen of Thorns and Margary are, in terms of shamelessness and ruthlessness, pretty damn near Cersei.

[childofsummer]

@brash (come back, quote function!):

Risky, certainly, but if you look at the Tyrell MO so far, they're incredibly reckless. First they plot to have Robert set aside Cersei in favor of Margaery, regardless of whether that would have been a good thing for Margaery(but that's a different matter). Then they send Loras in to the tourney with an underhanded trick sure to enrage Gregor, whose lack of self-control and capacity for violence are legendary. Then they support Renly, whose claim iis shaky at best. Then they plot with Sansa and probably LF to marry Sansa to Willas. Then or at the same time, they plot, again with LF, to murder the king and marry off Margaery to his kid brother. So it seems like maybe they wouldn't think it especially risky to count on Tyrion being framed and executed and then spiiriting Sansa away to Highgarden. I guess I'm still holding out hope for a more sympathetic cast to the Tyrells in that I think they (Margaery, Garlan, Olenna?) might actually really liike Sansa and want her for Willas's wife. Their tactics, though... sheesh.

Crazy busy work, houseguests, life... I'm sneaking in time to read for fun! :ninja:

Edited to fix my faulty html.

[1234567]

You know reading these chapters in review along with Margary's parts in AFFC, I think that the Queen of Thorns and Margary are, in terms of shamelessness and ruthlessness, pretty damn near Cersei.

I would agree there. I really think that pre-AFFC and the Qyburn incidents, they are very similar. The only difference is the way they exercise their manipulative power. The Tyrells hide their thorns behind their Roses, while the Lannisters bare their claws as it were. <_<

[Elba the Intoner]

You know reading these chapters in review along with Margary's parts in AFFC, I think that the Queen of Thorns and Margary are, in terms of shamelessness and ruthlessness, pretty damn near Cersei.

Maybe so, but the QOT is much more hilarious than Cersei for sure. When she made the comment about another singer is coming out to play The Reynes of Castamere, and it's been 15 minutes so she's forgotten how it goes, I laughed out loud! OMG that was funny. I still love the QOT for those kinds of comments even if she is otherwise ruthless.

[Elba the Intoner]

It does seem like this is what was intended. To my mind, it was much too risky, but the Tyrells haven't exactly shown themselves to be considerate people.

And just where have you been hiding, COS! :)

I have been wondering about the riskiness of incriminating Sansa as it relates to LF for a long time. It was so risky to make her look like she was in on the plot to murder Joff. I know he wants to create a situation in which he looks like he is rescuing her and also where she is completely dependent on him, but what if she had not gotten out of the throne room before they arrested her.? He wants Sansa so badly yet when I first realized all of what he did here I just couldn't believe he would take that risk given how much he wants her. I suppose he has back up plan, after back up plan, and so on but IDK.

Also, the comment that Tyrion was much more of a pawn here than player as compared to Sansa becomes all the more obvious when we find out later that LF was behind bringing in the jousting dwarfs at the wedding. LF knew that would piss off Tyrion no end and Tyrion played right into that. I really feel like this is being set up for a big show down between Tyrion and LF and that Tyrion could be involved in LF's downfall in some way. I just would love for Sansa to be involved with that somehow but it could just as easily be Tryrion (assuming he gets back to the Vale).

[Maroucia]

Quote:

Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful.]

Has anyone else noticed that Sansa’s hairs are described as autumn auburn? Autumn yellow is the color of house Clegane… I know that’s freakish on my part because that’s probably just a coincidence, but still! Autumn should be their season, is it winter yet?

[Caro99]

Tyrion says in this chapter that he feels weary after he tries to engage Sansa in some conversation. Well, that’s exactly how I would describe their relationship as being for them both: weary… I find it a little bit ironic that back in GOT Tyrion asks Jon why whenever a man builds a wall another immediately wants to know what’s on the other side… Well Tyrion, you may answer your own question here. he says sansa has bulid a fortress surrounding her as strong as the wall he once visited, and he wants to break through it. Yes, it may not have been easy for him being in this marriage- every time you ask you wife something she seems to be wishing she was far away, and not really paying you any attention- but he has to remember that she is the one who was forced into this marriage, not him, so…

Another moment I think that he misunderstood her is of course when he says that even a child should have a better sense when he wonders if Sansa is wishing she were the one marrying the queen. He just assumes this about her, instead of what she is truly wishing for: to have this day over and done with so she can be as far away from the Lannisters as possible. One of the only positive things he says about her character without adding the plus of her looks is when he says he could have loved sansa for not laughing at the dwarves. He could have loved her for that, meaning he is fooling himself day after day with notions of Braavos and Casterley Rock.

One point is that I like how Tyrion- who knows how to judge most characters- immediately assumes Sandor wouldn’t have gone and killed bran just cause the prince asked him to. The mycah accident was cause of cersei and joff’s cruelness, not the Hound’s.

And I love the part where Tyrion says that Sansa would’ve made joff a good queen and a better wife if he’d had the sense to love her. He contradicts himself here a little bit since he himself isn’t in love with her, but another confirmation of what a good person sansa is- a rare thing in Westeros, specially after everything she’s suffered. Maybe Sansa will be a queen one day, but maybe she could just be called a queen as the nickname Olenna has..? and also, since everyone at the red keep knows sansa is still a maiden, I don’t think it’s that wrong to assume she may have thought about marrying her off to willas. And when she wishes sansa to be merrier, well, it sort of came true after this chapter.

And to finish up, when Tyrion is saying how margaery is pretty but sansa can easily compete in looks with her, I recalled cersei’s chapter in AFFC when tommen is marrying margaery and states that though she is very pretty, most peasant girls have her sort of beauty when their young. Whereas we have had sansa described as anything but peasant looking. So IMO sansa may be far prettier than margaery. Of course, cersei isn’t the best person to trust in judgments but others have described Sansa as really beautiful, so who knows…

[brashcandy]

Also, the comment that Tyrion was much more of a pawn here than player as compared to Sansa becomes all the more obvious when we find out later that LF was behind bringing in the jousting dwarfs at the wedding. LF knew that would piss off Tyrion no end and Tyrion played right into that. I really feel like this is being set up for a big show down between Tyrion and LF and that Tyrion could be involved in LF's downfall in some way. I just would love for Sansa to be involved with that somehow but it could just as easily be Tryrion (assuming he gets back to the Vale).

Yup, LF was always playing 2 levels ahead of everyone else. Not only did he set up the jousting dwarves, but he also arranged for the Kettlebacks to journey to KL in the first place. (this is revealed in upcoming chapters). I think Tyrion will have that confrontation with LF. His statement about always wanting to see the Titan of Braavos was very suggestive, and we know he wants to bring the Eyrie down in revenge against Lysa Arryn. His mountain clans are also situated in that region and he might source them again when he returns to claim Casterly Rock.

So it seems like maybe they wouldn't think it especially risky to count on Tyrion being framed and executed and then spiiriting Sansa away to Highgarden. I guess I'm still holding out hope for a more sympathetic cast to the Tyrells in that I think they (Margaery, Garlan, Olenna?) might actually really liike Sansa and want her for Willas's wife. Their tactics, though... sheesh.

What I love all the more about Sansa's escape is that she basically gave a big FU to the Tyrells as well, who were shamelessly seeking to use her once more. They had provided no comfort to her during the marriage to Tyrion, but as soon as they saw an opening, wanted to make her their pawn again. Major props to Sansa for telling the QOT her place was beside her lord husband, and then leaving all of them behind.

[Queen of Winter]

A couple more points I wanted to make in support of the "Sansa does show political astuteness" side of the debate:

2. Sansa's masterful deflection of Lady Olenna's request by making herself appear to be the obedient wife:

Sansa manages here to kill two birds with one stone. We know that she doesn't think Lady Olenna is very kind - given the desertion after the motley wedding, and we know that she firmly doesn't believe that her place is beside Tyrion, but she manages to fool Tyrion into thinking that she has accepted her lot, and also to get out of offending or revealing her true feelings to Lady Olenna. After all, what Lady Olenna was rehashing here was the same old plot that had gotten Sansa in this mess in the first place, and had she gotten flustered or bungled her response in any other way she might have raised Tyrion's suspicions. I think this bold faced request by Olenna might also suggest that the Tyrells were looking to frame Tyrion all along for the murder of Joffrey, but perhaps not Sansa. I am reminded of the old saying, "kill them with kindness" when analysing Sansa's behaviour here. :)

You've raised some valid points here, brashcandy. And I have to say we must've been on the same wavelength today, because I almost put that bit about "killing with kindness" in my post. :)

(Personally I say, when it comes to enemies, either kill them with kindness or make them think you're daft (thus confusing them), so they don't know your true motives!) :laugh: