From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

[Greybeard]

Darn it, can't figure out how to multi-quote. :angry:

I think that Dontos did have some sort of idea what was going to happen, but probably not everything. He did say this about the hairnet back in ACOK:

“You’ve waited so long, be patient awhile longer. Here, I have something for you.” Ser Dontos fumbled in his pouch and drew out a silvery spiderweb, dangling it between his thick fingers. It was a hair net of fine-spun silver, the strands so thin and delicate the net seemed to weigh no more than a breath of air when Sansa took it in her fingers. Small gems were set wherever two strands crossed, so dark they drank the moonlight.

“What stones are these?”

“Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight.”

“It’s very lovely,” Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

“Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It’s magic, you see. It’s justice you hold. It’s vengeance for your father.” Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. “It’s home.”

Did he know what the stones really were? I tend to think so. He probably didn't know that she was going to the Vale though.

I'm inclined to agree that Dontos had to have some inkling of the hairnet's ulterior purpose. If all the stones were just amethysts, there would have been no need for him to use words such as "magic", "justice" and "vengeance". At the very least, LF must have impressed upon Dontos that it was vitally important* that Sansa wear this particular hairnet to the wedding feast. Dontos may well have asked LF why so, or he had worked out for himself what its ulterior purpose was.

Having had a quick skim through the ASOS Sansa chapters preceding the wedding, the hairnet is barely mentioned at all, which I find interesting, as Dontos was all but screaming out to Sansa (and by extension, us the omniscient readership) that there was something afoot - especially if anyone reading that chapter thought back to the prologue of ACOK and made the connection to Maester Cressen's Strangler crystals. When Sansa confides in him about the Tyrell's plan to set her up with Willas is, as far as I can tell, the first time he specifically says that she must wear the hairnet to the wedding. After that, there's nary a mention until she's getting changed after the service, and then when Olenna makes a show of adjusting Sansa's hair prior to entering the Red Keep.

Given the words Dontos used, you'd have to wonder if Sansa hadn't speculated to herself on what he meant, but it appears that she doesn't give it any thought until she's getting changed during her escape. It would have been interesting to have had Sansa's perspective on the wedding feast as well as/or instead of Tyrion's - was her nervousness due to more than just the upcoming escape attempt? As such, we don't get Sansa's thoughts regarding the hairnet until the following chapter when she puts two and two together. But I'm jumping the gun a little, so I'll leave it there...

* Given that the plot would have been derailed had Sansa worn a different hairnet, you have to wonder if there were any contingency plans to deal with Joff before the Bedding. It seems a bit too seat-of-the-pants to rely on Sansa wearing a specific item of jewellery in order to facilitate Joff's demise.

[Queen of Winter]

Having had a quick skim through the ASOS Sansa chapters preceding the wedding, the hairnet is barely mentioned at all, which I find interesting, as Dontos was all but screaming out to Sansa (and by extension, us the omniscient readership) that there was something afoot - especially if anyone reading that chapter thought back to the prologue of ACOK and made the connection to Maester Cressen's Strangler crystals.

Yeah, that comparison had crossed my mind a few times! :thumbsup:

And I do have some other thoughts about the hairnet, etc, but those comments need to be left for later chapters, as I would be getting ahead of everything right now.

[Maroucia]

@ Queen of Winter

The quote you have given us really makes me question my original thoughts on how long did Dontos knew about the upcoming Joffrey murder. He definitely knew about the poison, that’s something almost sure for me now.

I have to admit it surprises me though that Littlefinger would reveal such an important secret to a drunk as Dontos. We don’t know for sure, but the fact that Dontos talks about justice and vengeance for Ned certainly gives us a hint that he not only was in on the poison, but also knew who it was meant for.

Did Littlefinger really have to be that open to Dontos regarding his plan? I don’t see the need, Sansa didn’t realise she was carrying poison in her hair until after the murder, but she still wore the hairnet, so I would think that Dontos would have given it to Sansa and asked her to put it on for the wedding day all the same, even if he didn’t knew anything. Littlefinger didn’t act that carefully, I would say, if Dontos did knew about the plot.

@ Greabeard

I didn’t realise until now that Maester Cressen had been killed by the exact same poison then Joffery. It’s interesting since it gave a clue about the real purpose of the hairnet, that the really attentive and perceptive readers could have caught and then have been able to predict what was going to happen, but I was not one of those of course.

I’m sure the reason the hairnet is not mention a lot before the wedding is not to get us too suspicious about it. GRRM likes to give us hints here and there, but they are never too obvious.

[Yvonesan]

A Queen of Winter

Took me a while to clue in, but it's easy. Go to Reply to this topic and click. Go up to the first quote and click MultiQuote. Type in your response, or if you want to list the quotes, go to the next post you want to quote and click MultiQuote again.

Or...another way... just click the MultiQuote button on any number of posts you wish to respond to and then click on reply when you're ready to respond to the quotes!

Beginning to catch up since I've last been here, need to read another couple of pages before responding.

[brashcandy]

@ Queen of Winter

The quote you have given us really makes me question my original thoughts on how long did Dontos knew about the upcoming Joffrey murder. He definitely knew about the poison, that’s something almost sure for me now.

I have to admit it surprises me though that Littlefinger would reveal such an important secret to a drunk as Dontos. We don’t know for sure, but the fact that Dontos talks about justice and vengeance for Ned certainly gives us a hint that he not only was in on the poison, but also knew who it was meant for.

Did Littlefinger really have to be that open to Dontos regarding his plan? I don’t see the need, Sansa didn’t realise she was carrying poison in her hair until after the murder, but she still wore the hairnet, so I would think that Dontos would have given it to Sansa and asked her to put it on for the wedding day all the same, even if he didn’t knew anything. Littlefinger didn’t act that carefully, I would say, if Dontos did knew about the plot.

I think this may show that LF's attempt to paint Dontos as wholly untrustworthy and mercenary wasn't true. Yes, he probably would have bungled an attempt to kill Joffrey had he been intimately involved in the plot, but otherwise it seems as though he could be trusted to keep his mouth closed even whilst drunk. This of course undermines LF's whole reasoning for killing him, which we can surmise was all about making Sansa feel she could trust no one but him. Whenever we've seen Dontos in the past, he's tried to help Sansa: when she beaten at court, and later during the battle of Blackwater when he told her to go back to her room. He's also been a useful friend to her when she had no one else to talk to in KL. So I really think he was a lot more trustworthy and stable than his frequent drunken state would imply.

[Maroucia]

I think this may show that LF's attempt to paint Dontos as wholly untrustworthy and mercenary wasn't true. Yes, he probably would have bungled an attempt to kill Joffrey had he been intimately involved in the plot, but otherwise it seems as though he could be trusted to keep his mouth closed even whilst drunk. This of course undermines LF's whole reasoning for killing him, which we can surmise was all about making Sansa feel she could trust no one but him. Whenever we've seen Dontos in the past, he's tried to help Sansa: when she beaten at court, and later during the battle of Blackwater when he told her to go back to her room. He's also been a useful friend to her when she had no one else to talk to in KL. So I really think he was a lot more trustworthy and stable than his frequent drunken state would imply.

If what you are saying is true and that Dontos is more trust worthy then I thought, it would really show how Littlefinger can be convincing since he even convinced me that Dontos was just an old drunkard, in who no one could count on, and I’m not a fan of Littlefinger.

It’s true that in that case, there would be a big contradiction in Petyr’s actions.

First, he tells Dontos about his plans to kill the King; those plans, if discovered could mean the life of everyone involved in their progress, so it’s crucial that all those who know, even the smallest bit of information, be trust worthy.

If Dontos is THAT trust worthy, then why kill him after he helped Sansa out of the Red Keep? Petyr even goes as far as to say he could not be trusted, so had to be killed.

As you said, that would really prove (like if we really needed more proofs) that Littlefinger is this creepy, CREEPY, controlling freak, and that Sansa HAS to find a way to get the farthest she can from him!!!

[brashcandy]

If what you are saying is true and that Dontos is more trust worthy then I thought, it would really show how Littlefinger can be convincing since he even convinced me that Dontos was just an old drunkard, in who no one could count on, and I’m not a fan of Littlefinger.

It’s true that in that case, there would be a big contradiction in Petyr’s actions.

First, he tells Dontos about his plans to kill the King; those plans, if discovered could mean the life of everyone involved in their progress, so it’s crucial that all those who know, even the smallest bit of information, be trust worthy.

If Dontos is THAT trust worthy, then why kill him after he helped Sansa out of the Red Keep? Petyr even goes as far as to say he could not be trusted, so had to be killed.

As you said, that would really prove (like if we really needed more proofs) that Littlefinger is this creepy, CREEPY, controlling freak, and that Sansa HAS to find a way to get the farthest she can from him!!!

Oh yes to that bolded part a thousand times :) We can't be sure that he did tell Dontos that the specific target was going to be Joffrey, but we do know that Dontos knew the hairnet was poisonous and that he knew it would mean vengeance for Sansa one way or another. And it all comes down to Dontos really wanting to be trustworthy for Sansa. He may have been a sloppy drunk, but after she saved his life at the tourney, he wasn't reckless anymore.

-----

So anyways my friends, I've been thinking of how Sansa is portrayed in this chapter as a medieval Medusa (and in the GHH's prophecy about the maiden with purple serpents in her hair, which we assume is referring to Sansa) So, I'm no expert in Greek mythology, but going to google helped to tease out some interesting strands which someone else could work to piece together :) or we could all explore how GRRM might be reworking this myth/legend:

The Medusa was the daughter of Phorkys and Keto, the children of Gaia (Earth) and Okeanos (Ocean). She was one of the three sisters known as the Gorgons. The other two sisters were Sthenno and Euryale. Medusa was the only mortal out of the three. She was once very beautiful and lived far in the north were the sun didn't visit. Being very curious, she wanted to see the sun, and asked the Goddess Athena for permission to visit the south. Athena refused to allow her to visit. The medusa got angry and dared to say that Athena hadn't given her permission because she was jealous of her beauty. that was it! Athena was angered and punished her by turning her hair into snakes and cursing her by making her so ugly that who ever lookes at her eyes would turn into stone.

Death

In most versions of the story, she was beheaded by the hero Perseus, who was sent to fetch her head by King Polydectes of Seriphus. In his conquest, he received a mirrored shield from Athena, gold, winged sandals from Hermes, a sword from Hephaestus and Hades' helm of invisibility. Medusa was the only one of the three Gorgons who was mortal, so Perseus was able to slay her while looking at the reflection from the mirrored shield he received from Athena. During that time, Medusa was pregnant by Poseidon. When Perseus beheaded her, Pegasus, a winged horse, and Chrysaor, a golden-sword-ed giant, sprang from her body.

Hmmm, so we have a reference to Perseus and the mirrored shield; remember Serwyn of the mirror shield? The whole thing about beheading, savage giants, stone giants.....

See also: this link for some interesting academic exploration of Medusa.

[Elba the Intoner]

About Garlan Tyrell being part of the plot to murder Joffrey, I think it’s very likely he also knew that Tyrion would be framed. I even think he tried to add oil to the fire by acting empathic and shocked every time Joffrey was being an ass to Tyrion.

Examples:

After Joffrey destroyed the book about the Kings of Westeros that Tyrion offered him, Garlan immediately says:

“Your Grace … Perhaps you did not know. In all of Westeros there were but four copies of that book illuminated in Kaeth’s own hand.”

This is officially addressed to Joffrey, but it could really be meant to highlight Joffrey’s insolence and contempt of everything that is related to Tyrion; it’s possible that Garlan just wanted to make sure Tyrion would not let that go unnoticed.

Later, at the wedding feast, after Joffrey emptied his wine glass on Tyrion, Garlan tells Joffrey that it was ill done, he is again the only one to seem to be sympathetic to Tyrion, but that could be another way to make sure Tyrion gets even madder at Joffrey.

To me, he is not being nice to Tyrion, he is provoking him.

NOOOOOOO!! So now you are making me doubt my like of Garlan! It's not fair. What about when he danced with Sansa after her wedding to Tyrion? That was nice of him and he didn't have to do it and it made Sansa happy for a brief moment. Well I refuse to dislike him, so there!

[voodooqueen126]

Indeed. The Bride's beloved brother Sitting at the far end of the table beside the Groom's hated uncle and Sansa Stark, his ex-betrothed.

Maybe we are reading too much into this, but the whole scene now looks really suspicious....especially Marg, Garlan and Olenna. Also Garlan is the first to push Tyrion out of his way to go and help Joff....or make sure none of the evidence points to Marg or the Tyrells.

I would still say that Garlan didn't poison Joffrey himself, only Margaery could do that without the risk of being poisoned.

[Fire Eater]

I would still say that Garlan didn't poison Joffrey himself, only Margaery could do that without the risk of being poisoned.

Littlefinger clearly states it was Olenna who poisoned Joffrey. She was the only one who touched Sansa's hairnet.

[Maroucia]

Littlefinger clearly states it was Olenna who poisoned Joffrey. She was the only one who touched Sansa's hairnet.

You should never trust Littlefinger...

[Winter's Knight]

Yes, actually Tyrion had other choices. His father told him that he would find him someother girl if he wouldn't take Sansa:

Tyrion himself offers Lancel in his place, albeit ten minutes before the wedding.

[1234567]

Edit: Sorry. Going off topic!

Everyone please remember we are discussing Sansa.

[Grail King]

I'm inclined to agree that Dontos had to have some inkling of the hairnet's ulterior purpose. If all the stones were just amethysts, there would have been no need for him to use words such as "magic", "justice" and "vengeance". At the very least, LF must have impressed upon Dontos that it was vitally important* that Sansa wear this particular hairnet to the wedding feast. Dontos may well have asked LF why so, or he had worked out for himself what its ulterior purpose was.

Having had a quick skim through the ASOS Sansa chapters preceding the wedding, the hairnet is barely mentioned at all, which I find interesting, as Dontos was all but screaming out to Sansa (and by extension, us the omniscient readership) that there was something afoot - especially if anyone reading that chapter thought back to the prologue of ACOK and made the connection to Maester Cressen's Strangler crystals. When Sansa confides in him about the Tyrell's plan to set her up with Willas is, as far as I can tell, the first time he specifically says that she must wear the hairnet to the wedding. After that, there's nary a mention until she's getting changed after the service, and then when Olenna makes a show of adjusting Sansa's hair prior to entering the Red Keep.

Given the words Dontos used, you'd have to wonder if Sansa hadn't speculated to herself on what he meant, but it appears that she doesn't give it any thought until she's getting changed during her escape. It would have been interesting to have had Sansa's perspective on the wedding feast as well as/or instead of Tyrion's - was her nervousness due to more than just the upcoming escape attempt? As such, we don't get Sansa's thoughts regarding the hairnet until the following chapter when she puts two and two together. But I'm jumping the gun a little, so I'll leave it there...

* Given that the plot would have been derailed had Sansa worn a different hairnet, you have to wonder if there were any contingency plans to deal with Joff before the Bedding. It seems a bit too seat-of-the-pants to rely on Sansa wearing a specific item of jewellery in order to facilitate Joff's demise.

I believe that Dontos did know what was a foot, he's a drunk but he isn't stupid, plus I 'm pretty sure that LF gave him all the info to make sure Sansa could figure it out, since LF planned from the start to kill Dontos. As far as when to leave either Dontos signaled Sansa or Sansa also figured that the best time to run was during the diversion ( Joff's death), and it was in the Godswood when Sansa realized she was used to kill Joff and hence kept the hairnet instead of putting it in the tree.

As far as what LF said of who did the killing-- always keep your hands clean Sansa should be burned into the red wolf's brain since he can't be trusted.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Medusa, one of the three Gorgons, daughter of Phorcys and Ceto. She was the only one of the Gorgons who was subject to mortality. She is celebrated for her personal charms and the beauty of her locks. Neptune became enamoured of her, and obtained her favours in the temple of Minerva. This violation of the sanctity of the temple provoked Minerva, and she changed the beautiful locks of Medusa, which had inspired Neptune’s love to serpents.

So depends on which version of Medusa you read. There are versions that indicate she was actually an innocent who was punished because of Neptune's lust and Minerva's jealousy.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Tyrion/Joffrey's lust.......and Cersei's jealousy...........

[brashcandy]

So depends on which version of Medusa you read. There are versions that indicate she was actually an innocent who was punished because of Neptune's lust and Minerva's jealousy.

Yeah, I read some other versions today :) Very interesting.

[Fire Eater]

So depends on which version of Medusa you read. There are versions that indicate she was actually an innocent who was punished because of Neptune's lust and Minerva's jealousy.

I can see the resemblance, only I think Littlefinger assumes the role of Neptune and Lysa the role of Minerva. Neptune is portrayed holding a trident while Littlfinger is made Lord Paramount of the Trident. Minerva changed Medusa's locks into snakes out of jealousy and the incident at the temple, whereas Lysa had Sansa's auburn hair dyed a dark brown and tried to kill her due to jealousy over Petyr's move on Sansa in the godswood, a place of supposed sanctity.

[Queen of Winter]

Or...another way... just click the MultiQuote button on any number of posts you wish to respond to and then click on reply when you're ready to respond to the quotes!

Beginning to catch up since I've last been here, need to read another couple of pages before responding.

Thanks for the tip Yvonesan. Much appreciated!

[bgona]

If Bronn really had been acting as a double agent, spying on Tyrion for Tywin, and chose Shae on Tywin's demand so that she could be a second spy in Tyrion's household, that would bring many new elements on the table.

1) A prostitute would be a perfect spy for Tywin since he's always complaining about his son whoring. He knew that by forbidding Tyrion to bring his whore with him at the red keep, he would be tempting him to do it, since Tyrion loves defying authority.

2) It would give more credibility to my crackpot theory about Tywin being a part of the plot to murder Joffrey. That could mean that Shae was since the beginning supposed to help frame Tyrion for the trial.

One of the problems with that crazy theory is that it would make it hard to understand why Tywin wanted to marry Tyrion to Sansa if he was to frame him just after. I guess I'm just taking my desire for reality on that matter, since it would be such an incredible twist to learn that Tywin was the mastermind behind his grandson's murder and framed his own son as the killer.

I can´t see Bronn as a plant of Tywin, due how Tyrion knew him. That after he could sell some information maybe to the highest bidder, that can be possible. But I don´t know why but I keep a kind of feeling that Bronn was in deed Tyrion true friend.