From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

[Raksha the Demon]

Well, this post was a very nice surprise, brashcandy!

Agreed. The Lannisters paid him to do a job. That was the extent of his relationship with them.

The poor man, he really is hurting. If Arya only knew! :bawl:

He's going to have to dry out on the QI, I think.

"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head, and flew off. "

I do love the "shit on the Imp's head" part. :lol:

But how's he going to feel when he finds out the Mockingbird's got his little bird? :angry2:

That zinger :fencing: to Arya was great. :P

Concerning the remarks being made about Sansa, I think Sandor was exerting an iron control over his actions at that point. :angry:

Sansa was probably the only one who tried to treat him with courtesy. Like anything but a dog.

The man is nothing but succinct. And I love it! :D

Good Lord, that man would never intentionally harm Sansa. I do believe he loves her (of course he won't willingly admit that aloud), and it's plain as day (well, to us).

I think she was always a mirror of himself from when he was a child, because I'm willing to bet money that when he was small, before Gregor burned him, he believed in the same songs that she loved. He wanted to be that brave knight, and rescue the princess in the castle tower. Another parallel is that he left home at 12 when Gregor was knighted, Sansa lost her home when she was 12 too.

Sandors words are more a punishment against himself, (i.e. deriding himself) thinking he should have done more to make sure that she was seen safely away from King's Landing and that he failed to keep her safe. Because you know, he was supposed to be the faire maiden's knight.

That Sansa was just given to Tyrion, rubs salt in the wound for him, because he believes Tyrion's going to mistreat her and I believe he probably feels Tyrion didn't deserve her.

I definitely think there's unfinished business between them too. As to what happens.....it could go a few ways for sure and of course I have my own theories.

Of course I hope for :love: , ( :blush: ) but unfortunately we'll have to wait (and wait, and wait!) and see! :D

Though I wonder what Sandor would think, if Sansa does Littlefinger in herself? Would his opinion of her change? How would he view his little bird then?

I am not so sure that the Hound would not intentionally harm Sansa; just as I am not sure that their reunion - which I am pretty sure will happen before the series ends - won't be violent. I have no doubt that Sandor loves Sansa, as much as he is capable of love, but he is a very mixed-up and physically volatile man. He might have no intention of harming her to begin with, but Sandor seems to be an alcoholic, and we have seen drunken Sandor threaten the 12-year-old helpless Sansa with a knife. If something, the wrong word or attitude from Sansa, the revelation that she has been 'lying' by presenting herself as Littlefinger's daughter, sets off Sandor's rage, I could see him hurting her in the heat of the moment. This is not written in stone; Sandor is not his brother; and he has exerted self-control, but that self-control was occasionally rather thin. I would like to see whether Sandor has at least stopped drinking. Sandor, in my opinion, is a broken-hearted man was horribly hurt as a child by those who should have protected him and saw more evidence, as he matured, that the world not only did not care but encouraged such villainy; and so became tough and cruel to survive. He has a good side, and a very violent side. And neither Sandor nor Sansa are very experienced in handling the combination of love and sexuality.

So, while I might hope for a long-term relationship and happy ending for the Hound and his Little Bird, I am not sure that it will happen. But I do think they will reunite.

What's interesting is that by now, three very different men have laid claim to Sansa in different ways - Sandor, Tyrion, and Petyr - and all three have put their cloaks on her - for different reasons. Sansa has chosen only one cloak herself; as I have said elsewhere - Sandor's. Foreshadowing? I think so, at least of Sandor's being a significant romantic influence on Sansa as well as a significant mentor.

Most thirteen-year-old girls, even noble-born girls of Westeros, find their romantic and adult lives beginning at this age; with dancing and laughter and tournaments. Sansa has already been through a betrothal gone horribly wrong, a forced and false (unwanted and never consummated) marriage, and now has been claimed by a self-proclaimed would-be father who begins Sansa's fosterage by murdering the man who brought her out of danger. Sansa has lost her family, her friends (false friends - the Tyrells - and true friends Sandor and Dontos). She has hoped for love and marriage twice, only to have her hopes dashed. And now she is sailing off into the darkness, in the arms of a man she barely knows, because she cannot go back, implicated as she is in Joffrey's murder.

Just as well that Sansa does not know what lies ahead!

[Grail King]

As much as I don't ship S&S I also don't think he's Gregor, as rough as he is he still did do the best he could with both Stark girls, I'm also sure he knows Sansa was forced into that marriage so if the Giant turns out to be Tyrion, Sandor may kill him as there seems to be some sort of animosity between the two.

At this point I still think he may die saving her just not sure if it's from Gregor, LF ( though I want Sansa to do this herself ) or Tyrion ( as he has to pay his debt to the Eyrie).

[Queen of Winter]

I am not so sure that the Hound would not intentionally harm Sansa; just as I am not sure that their reunion - which I am pretty sure will happen before the series ends - won't be violent. I have no doubt that Sandor loves Sansa, as much as he is capable of love, but he is a very mixed-up and physically volatile man. He might have no intention of harming her to begin with, but Sandor seems to be an alcoholic, and we have seen drunken Sandor threaten the 12-year-old helpless Sansa with a knife. If something, the wrong word or attitude from Sansa, the revelation that she has been 'lying' by presenting herself as Littlefinger's daughter, sets off Sandor's rage, I could see him hurting her in the heat of the moment. This is not written in stone; Sandor is not his brother; and he has exerted self-control, but that self-control was occasionally rather thin. I would like to see whether Sandor has at least stopped drinking. Sandor, in my opinion, is a broken-hearted man was horribly hurt as a child by those who should have protected him and saw more evidence, as he matured, that the world not only did not care but encouraged such villainy; and so became tough and cruel to survive. He has a good side, and a very violent side. And neither Sandor nor Sansa are very experienced in handling the combination of love and sexuality.

You definitely bring up some very valid points here, Raksha. Sandor absolutely has quite a few issues that he needs to work on or that need to be resolved. The violence that surrounded him as a child certainly had a role in molding his persona and how he relates to people. I guess we have to wait and see what exactly happens to him while he's recuperating, assuming that he is that gravedigger on the QI. I for one, am very curious as to what's going through his head, being surrounded by all those monks! And I agree with you that Sansa and Sandor's ending might not be happy indeed.

What's interesting is that by now, three very different men have laid claim to Sansa in different ways - Sandor, Tyrion, and Petyr - and all three have put their cloaks on her - for different reasons. Sansa has chosen only one cloak herself; as I have said elsewhere - Sandor's. Foreshadowing? I think so, at least of Sandor's being a significant romantic influence on Sansa as well as a significant mentor.

I wonder if that white Kingsguard cloak will ever show up?

Most thirteen-year-old girls, even noble-born girls of Westeros, find their romantic and adult lives beginning at this age; with dancing and laughter and tournaments. Sansa has already been through a betrothal gone horribly wrong, a forced and false (unwanted and never consummated) marriage, and now has been claimed by a self-proclaimed would-be father who begins Sansa's fosterage by murdering the man who brought her out of danger. Sansa has lost her family, her friends (false friends - the Tyrells - and true friends Sandor and Dontos). She has hoped for love and marriage twice, only to have her hopes dashed. And now she is sailing off into the darkness, in the arms of a man she barely knows, because she cannot go back, implicated as she is in Joffrey's murder.

Just as well that Sansa does not know what lies ahead!

Very true!

[brashcandy]

It really was telling to see just how emotionally affected Sandor was by the news of Sansa's marriage. Compare this to LF's calculated design of the entire thing, risking Sansa's innocence and her life, all in the effort to entrap her, and I think it's clear which man she has more to fear from. Sandor might be harsh, but his love or whatever you prefer to call it for her affects him on a deep level.

[Fire Eater]

It really was telling to see just how emotionally affected Sandor was by the news of Sansa's marriage. Compare this to LF's calculated design of the entire thing, risking Sansa's innocence and her life, all in the effort to entrap her, and I think it's clear which man she has more to fear from. Sandor might be harsh, but his love or whatever you prefer to call it for her affects him on a deep level.

Well Sandor does have a special place in his heart for Sansa while Littlefinger's "love" is basically an infatuated obsession where he doesn't want her heart, but rather her body. Sandor never touched her inappropriately while Littlefinger is forcing himself on her.

In Sandor's statement "I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her," he pretty much expresses his shame in that he stood by and let her be beaten when he wanted to do something to stop it. Littlefinger doesn't feel any shame whatsoever in anything including Sansa's treatment by Joffrey.

[Raksha the Demon]

Well Sandor does have a special place in his heart for Sansa while Littlefinger's "love" is basically an infatuated obsession where he doesn't want her heart, but rather her body. Sandor never touched her inappropriately while Littlefinger is forcing himself on her.

I haven't commented too deeply on LF's agenda for Sansa yet on the reread threads, because he has not yet revealed his full scuzziness where Sansa is concerned, but I'll just agree that LF is Walking Pond Slime.

[brashcandy]

I haven't commented too deeply on LF's agenda for Sansa yet on the reread threads, because he has not yet revealed his full scuzziness where Sansa is concerned, but I'll just agree that LF is Walking Pond Slime.

With LF it feels like the more you know, the less you know. It's even hard to say if at this point the man is capable of feeling genuine emotion. But the reason I like this moment with Sandor is because he's completely naked - he's just laying it out there in the most raw form possible, and it's ugly and bitter, but also very very compelling.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think the posters above me have touched on most of the relevant things with how Sandor reacts to hearing that Sansa's been carted off to the Imp. What I would like to add though is that just as Littlefinger, he's probably heard the stories of Tyrion's first marriage. With that story in mind, no wonder he feels like he should have rolled Sansa up in a rug or put her in a box or something and taken her with him regardless, since anywhere would be better than what happened to Tysha. Sandor didn't even try to plead with Sansa or reason or anything, he just felt rejected and left, basically. Of course, he didn't have a real plan or anything structured in mind, but I bet in this chapter he wishes that he had, or that he'd done any number of things differently, since not only is Tyrion in his mind a twisted, vile creature of wrongness, he's also the guy who let his previous wife be gangraped by 200 guards when he got fed up with her (according to LF's tale). Lovely.

@ Raksha:

I am not so sure that the Hound would not intentionally harm Sansa; just as I am not sure that their reunion - which I am pretty sure will happen before the series ends - won't be violent. I have no doubt that Sandor loves Sansa, as much as he is capable of love, but he is a very mixed-up and physically volatile man. He might have no intention of harming her to begin with, but Sandor seems to be an alcoholic, and we have seen drunken Sandor threaten the 12-year-old helpless Sansa with a knife. If something, the wrong word or attitude from Sansa, the revelation that she has been 'lying' by presenting herself as Littlefinger's daughter, sets off Sandor's rage, I could see him hurting her in the heat of the moment.

I think it's important to remember when he did threaten her at knifepoint too. It was at the Battle of the Blackwater when he's been put through the grinder all day and night with warfare, mortal peril and worst of all, wildfire everywhere. He's drunk himself into oblivion almost, yet he seems to have somehow in the middle of this hatched a Cunning Plan to leave KL and offer Sansa to come with him since he somehow felt he couldn't leave her to Joffrey's dickitude.

Of course, then Sansa is frightened by his not-so-suave social skills and he feels rejected. I'm sure the worse part of him had some less than honourable intentions in this situation, and those tend to come out sometimes when we're dead drunk. However, I don't think that was what he had in mind when he went there, nor what he actually wanted to do or say. It also seems that unlike Tyrion, he's more clear on the fact that Sansa is too young and that it would be Wrong.

It's also clear from the conversation with Polliver and the Tickler that he agrees that Sansa is very pretty and lovely and I think this is in part why he felt rejected since not only was he frightened, from his POV, why would someone as pretty, lovely and highborn as Sansa ever look at someone like him twice? He is not good looking, he has no money and is not of particularly high birth. He's got nothing to offer her apart from maybe scaring people off. I think this is one of the reasons he brags to Arya about Sansa singing to him, since I think he would have loved if she did do that voluntarily, like in the courtly love stories. It would lend him a certain amount of importance and recognition. Of course, we then see him confessing to Arya in the end that Sansa had to be forced to sing to him. It's also interesting to note that despite Sansa not really giving him the recognition he's after, or only partly managing to do so, he still really loathes himself for not doing more for her. Perhaps the Elder Brother is wrong, perhaps he's already found a more worthwhile cause, but it slipper through his fingers?

The deadpan lines in this chapter always make me snicker, especially the "she shat on the imp's head and flew off" since the mental images of Sansa actually doing that are hilarious. :lol: Not to mention the "If I wanted you to know, I'd told you". I always took the zinger at Arya to be not affectionate, but at least more like teasing than actual complaint, which in itself is odd. It's like he's got used to having her around, and to look after her. I actually think he'd be more sad if Arya was dead than he would be for Joffrey. He seems to respect Arya, while I am sure he saw Joffrey for the sadistic little monster he was.

Another general point which ties into the being proud to serve comment that we get later from the EB, it's again interesting to see the difference in how the retainers, liege lords etc of House Lannister and House Stark see their leaders. The people the Stark family employed seem to take pride in their service (not counting the Boltons) and feel it was worthwhile on its own, while the Lannisters often buy things with money, but beneath the gold, there isn't much of value. Sandor has done more for Arya and Sansa for free and feels more for Sansa than he ever did for Joffrey or the Lannisters whom he's served his entire adult life. We don't see Tyrion or Cersei*** thinking of people in service to House Lannister that they'd miss or would think twice about when dead, but Arya and Sansa think about various people from Winterfell. Jeyne Poole, Jory Cassel, etc. It also ties in with how Sansa thinks she would rule with love, not with fear and how Ned tells them the pack survives but the lone wolf dies. There is a point in taking care of your own and in sticking together, not only for convenience or money, but for other, less tangible reasons as well.

Sansa is probably the one who is most keen on leaving Winterfell to start with, but at the end of AFFC, she is the one who longs for it the most, and who really misses her family more than even Arya (although we see it a lot from Arya as well).

Lastly, regarding Sansa and Sandor meeting up again, I really hope they will since there is definitely a connection between them and they spend time thinking about the other. They do seem to have different views on what that relationship constitutes though, since Sandor post Battle of the Blackwater is pretty set in that it's only in a position as (currently failed) guardian/protector and possibly in the platonic courtly love context, while Sansa is taking it down a quite different route in her head (which we'll see more of in the later ASOS and AFFC chapters).

***one of the reasons Jaime is my favourite Lannister. He spends a lot of time musing on relatives, retainers, other lords and knight, who he likes having around, who he doesn't and he really appreciates people like Addam Marbrand. Jaime =Joanna's son, Tyrion = Tywin's, tbh.

EDIT: grammar and coherence.

[Raksha the Demon]

With LF it feels like the more you know, the less you know. It's even hard to say if at this point the man is capable of feeling genuine emotion. But the reason I like this moment with Sandor is because he's completely naked - he's just laying it out there in the most raw form possible, and it's ugly and bitter, but also very very compelling.

I think LF is definitely capable of feeling genuine emotion; and much of what he feels is pretty ugly; I think he wants revenge for the wrongs he imagines were done to him and sufficient power so that nothing he values can be snatched from him again as was his imagined future with Cat. Littlefinger will sacrifice anything and everyone to gain power, including Sansa. I think he feels tremendous hate/anger for the Stark and Tully families - possibly including Cat herself, since he does not seem to have felt much grief at her death (or done anything to help her).

I think that Sansa was a revelation to LF; a younger and even prettier version of Cat, a new slate upon which he can write The Lives of Petyr Baelish and Catelyn Stark the way he thinks they should have happened in his youth, only now, when he is so much stronger and more respected. Remember how LF put his hands on Sansa in AGOT when they'd first met, touching her cheek, fingering her hair - that's not the conduct of careful/controlled/machiavellian schemer Littlefinger, that's the approach of a smitten would-be lover. Sansa is both a huge opportunity for Littlefinger, to rewrite his past, to amass more power by using her as a pawn in the Game, and a huge potential witness because he does have strong feelings for the girl - as we will see more of in later chapters.

[Queen of Winter]

I think the posters above me have touched on most of the relevant things with how Sandor reacts to hearing that Sansa's been carted off to the Imp. What I would like to add though is that just as Littlefinger, he's probably heard the stories of Tyrion's first marriage. With that story in mind, no wonder he feels like he should have rolled Sansa up in a rug or put her in a box or something and taken her with him regardless, since anywhere would be better than what happened to Tysha. Sandor didn't even try to plead with Sansa or reason or anything, he just felt rejected and left, basically. Of course, he didn't have a real plan or anything structured in mind, but I bet in this chapter he wishes that he had, or that he'd done any number of things differently, since not only is Tyrion in his mind a twisted, vile creature of wrongness, he's also the guy who let his previous wife be gangraped by 200 guards when he got fed up with her (according to LF's tale). Lovely.

Exactly. Sandor thinks he's resigned her to the same fate, and that she would be better off going with him. At least he could protect her, as he said everyone's afraid of him and he would see that no one would ever hurt her again. So he's definitely deep in despair over everything.

It's also clear from the conversation with Polliver and the Tickler that he agrees that Sansa is very pretty and lovely and I think this is in part why he felt rejected since not only was he frightened, from his POV, why would someone as pretty, lovely and highborn as Sansa ever look at someone like him twice? He is not good looking, he has no money and is not of particularly high birth. He's got nothing to offer her apart from maybe scaring people off. I think this is one of the reasons he brags to Arya about Sansa singing to him, since I think he would have loved if she did do that voluntarily, like in the courtly love stories. It would lend him a certain amount of importance and recognition.

Wholeheartedly agree with you there . (Regarding Sandor having no money: I do find it ironic that he won all that gold @ the Hand's Tourney and then lost it to the BWB.)

Of course, we then see him confessing to Arya in the end that Sansa had to be forced to sing to him. It's also interesting to note that despite Sansa not really giving him the recognition he's after, or only partly managing to do so, he still really loathes himself for not doing more for her. Perhaps the Elder Brother is wrong, perhaps he's already found a more worthwhile cause, but it slipper through his fingers?

Sandor is definitely a man who needs a purpose for existing. First he was fueled by thoughts of killing Gregor, but now that he's "dead", what is he going to do now? He needs to find another reason to live, a good one this time. ;)

The deadpan lines in this chapter always make me snicker, especially the "she shat on the imp's head and flew off" since the mental images of Sansa actually doing that are hilarious. Not to mention the "If I wanted you to know, I'd told you". I always took the zinger at Arya to be not affectionate, but at least more like teasing than actual complaint, which in itself is odd. It's like he's got used to having her around, and to look after her. I actually think he'd be more sad if Arya was dead than he would be for Joffrey. He seems to respect Arya, while I am sure he saw Joffrey for the sadistic little monster he was.

I think Sandor and Arya's interactions are some of the best in the series. They play off one another very well! Don't forget that Sandor also had a younger sister who died, killed by Gregor I believe. (We don't know much about her, but I hope we get an opportunity to learn more).

Lastly, regarding Sansa and Sandor meeting up again, I really hope they will since there is definitely a connection between them and they spend time thinking about the other. They do seem to have different views on what that relationship constitutes though, since Sandor post Battle of the Blackwater is pretty set in that it's only in a position as (currently failed) guardian/protector and possibly in the platonic courtly love context, while Sansa is taking it down a quite different route in her head (which we'll see more of in the later ASOS and AFFC chapters).

This should be a most interesting meeting to say the least, considering the UnKiss (or whatever you want to call it) and the way he's feeling about how things went after Blackwater, then finding out Sansa was wed to the Imp. I just wonder how the meeting is going to come about.

[Caro99]

Agree that arya & sandor’s scenes are some of the best in the series. Every time I read them I laugh a lot and I also always get to see something new in sandor’s character. The crossroads inn scene is of course very sad. To see sandor reacting to sansa being married to Tyrion is so sad. And when he acknowledges that she is indeed a very courteous lady, well he says this as a compliment and something he longed to have in his life despite all him mocking her for it (this compliment is sincere and from the heart, unlike tyrion’s previous compliment when he is wondering if he ought to claim sansa’s maidenhead after the purple wedding and says something like, “my wife is nothing if not dutiful”. So we see who is the man who admires sansa for what she is… I like that he is still able to fight and kill the tickler even after he is quite drunk (reminds me of when he said to sansa he could keep her safe). He is now keeping arya safe as well, so that’s nice & in league with the previous comment about how he is now more loyal to the stark girls in a way he never was with the Lannisters.

His deathbed confession… well, I don’t think he meant to rape her when he went to her rooms back in ACOK, and neither does he really mean it when he says he ought to have raped her and ripped her heart out. That’s just literal talk. His words are filled with pain that is coming from the heart. He is opening up to arya and while it is of course a little scary for a girl so young, we know that is has a deeper, truer meaning. Sandor views himself in the worst possible light, and for him to say that sansa would’ve been better of with him than with Tyrion despite he being scum or whatever he thought of himself, means to me that he knows he was at least better for sansa than Tyrion- if that makes sense! J

It may very well be a possibility, but I don’t think that (if San/san ever meet again) sandor will hurt sansa. GRRM gave us that scenario back during the BBW and in the end sandor didn’t physically hurt sansa. Yes, the knife-point threat was bad, but if sansa can still think of him with longing as we will later on see then I think it’s cause she herself knows sandor is one person who would never hurt her. I am sure they’ll meet again, and just have to pray that their ending will be a sweet one. The tragic ending would work, but I would rather that they live happily ever after…

And back to the current chapter: I think LF was lucky that Sansa is so lady like. meaning that I don’t think he would have had such an easy time with sansa if she had her aunt lyanna’s temper…

[brashcandy]

Hey folks, had a very busy and tiring day, will try to get the chapter up tonight, or first thing in the morning. xxxx

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

He only used the knife because, basically, a blade is the only way he truly knows how to communicate with others

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

dbl post

[Lyanna Stark]

I think LF is definitely capable of feeling genuine emotion; and much of what he feels is pretty ugly; I think he wants revenge for the wrongs he imagines were done to him and sufficient power so that nothing he values can be snatched from him again as was his imagined future with Cat. Littlefinger will sacrifice anything and everyone to gain power, including Sansa. I think he feels tremendous hate/anger for the Stark and Tully families - possibly including Cat herself, since he does not seem to have felt much grief at her death (or done anything to help her).

:agree:

Littlefinger is definitely the worst of the three men surrounding Sansa. Sandor clearly feels ashamed he could not do more for her, which we see in the death scene. Even Tyrion who took Sansa on for her claim and her looks still decides to doggedly not blame her in his trial, despite being pretty bitter about their marriage not working. Yet Littlefinger...does he ever feel remorse?

His feelings seem to be 100% self centred and centred only on advancing himself through others and to get what he wants. He has no family he cares for, and if he ever saw Sansa as potential family, it's in a twisted, all wrong way.

He tells her himself to be more afraid of the dagger in the dark than someone waving a sword in your face. Both Tyrion and Sandor acted (or at least could act) as more direct threats to her in that way, but LF himself is really the dagger in the dark sort of dangerous. His warning to her here paralells what he told Ned in AGOT, only Ned didn't take him seriously. I think Sansa eventually will.

Back to Sandor's feeling for Tyrion and whether they are only related to the Blackwater and the Imp's marriage to Sansa, I wonder if Sandor as Cersei's bodyguard hasn't got a big helping of Cersei's one sided hate for Tyrion, which means they've already been at odds for years. I can't see Tyrion be particularly nice to Cersei's guards, so it makes sense that he'd snarked and been rude, which probably has raised the Hound's ire for him. Despite that, Sandor does warn him of sorts about Joffrey, but Tyrion waves it away.

It makes you wonder just how much he knew about the inner workings of the Lannister family. It's pretty clear he thinks Joffrey is a monster, but may view Myrcella and Tommen differently. He clearly thinks Tyrion is vile, and he seems to think he got "kicked" enough by the Lannisters that he needed to take his leave, but was that from Lannisters in general? Mostly Tyrion at the BotB? Or Cersei? Was tBotB just the final nail in the coffin of something he'd thought about for a long time? I wonder if he knew about the incest. He must have heard rumours of Stannis' letters if nothing else and he doesn't seem stupid at all so might have figured it out. No wonder he felt he could be useful to Robb Stark if he had played the silent bodyguard dude in the corner nobody cares about for years, what with Cersei spilling the beans all over the place. I wonder if he tried to warn Sansa not only about Joffrey in all this speeches about liars, but about Cersei as well. He would have known what she was like.

Also, random thought: Tyrion got ugly guards for Shae, did Tywin pick an ugly (but competent) guard for Cersei and her offspring in the same way? We all know Cersei likes her pretty boys, so she wouldn't look twice at Sandor in a million years (which makes it even more LOL that Sansa does/did).

[voodooqueen126]

I am not so sure that the Hound would not intentionally harm Sansa; just as I am not sure that their reunion - which I am pretty sure will happen before the series ends - won't be violent. I have no doubt that Sandor loves Sansa, as much as he is capable of love, but he is a very mixed-up and physically volatile man. He might have no intention of harming her to begin with, but Sandor seems to be an alcoholic, and we have seen drunken Sandor threaten the 12-year-old helpless Sansa with a knife. If something, the wrong word or attitude from Sansa, the revelation that she has been 'lying' by presenting herself as Littlefinger's daughter, sets off Sandor's rage, I could see him hurting her in the heat of the moment. This is not written in stone; Sandor is not his brother; and he has exerted self-control, but that self-control was occasionally rather thin. I would like to see whether Sandor has at least stopped drinking. Sandor, in my opinion, is a broken-hearted man was horribly hurt as a child by those who should have protected him and saw more evidence, as he matured, that the world not only did not care but encouraged such villainy; and so became tough and cruel to survive. He has a good side, and a very violent side. And neither Sandor nor Sansa are very experienced in handling the combination of love and sexuality. So, while I might hope for a long-term relationship and happy ending for the Hound and his Little Bird, I am not sure that it will happen. But I do think they will reunite.

You definitely bring up some very valid points here, Raksha. Sandor absolutely has quite a few issues that he needs to work on or that need to be resolved. The violence that surrounded him as a child certainly had a role in molding his persona and how he relates to people. I guess we have to wait and see what exactly happens to him while he's recuperating, assuming that he is that gravedigger on the QI. I for one, am very curious as to what's going through his head, being surrounded by all those monks! And I agree with you that Sansa and Sandor's ending might not be happy indeed. I wonder if that white Kingsguard cloak will ever show up? Very true!

It really was telling to see just how emotionally affected Sandor was by the news of Sansa's marriage. Compare this to LF's calculated design of the entire thing, risking Sansa's innocence and her life, all in the effort to entrap her, and I think it's clear which man she has more to fear from. Sandor might be harsh, but his love or whatever you prefer to call it for her affects him on a deep level.

Reading these posts...

Well, I think it's fortunate in terms of the potential Sandor and Sansa relationship, that Sandor's childhood is mostly blank.

Since if it was as terrible as some fanfic writers portray it, then Sandor would have the personality of Reek, or something not dissimilar to his brothers.

For Sandor to be able to have a fulfilling relationship with Sansa, I would assume that he would've received a certain amount of love from both of his parents, sister, Septas, Maesters, and pets.

So GRRM by not revealing whether this was so, keeps the possibility of emotional fulfilment open.

Sure we know that Sandor suffered terribly, when Gregor burnt his face, but this seems sufficient to have merely given Sandor a degree of empathy (ie he sees Sansa's suffering at Joffrey's hands and is reminded of his own suffering at Gregor's hands), a certain amount of contempt for the Lannister regime (since their corruption allows Gregor to thrive) and a degree of contempt for knighthood in general (since the system of knight-hood allows people like Gregor to thrive).

If these first two characteristics are good, since for 6"8 warrior to empathise with a little girl is remarkable, especially in comparison to tiny Tyrion's inability to do so (basically if you think about it, Tyrion is like a woman or child in that he is basically physically vulnerable to larger people and is also excluded from inheritance/control of property and thus lacks control over his own life) and whilst Tyrion can empathise with Bran Stark and Jon Snow(who despite being strong and handsome he is still excluded from property ownership).

Tyrion cannot bring himself to empathise with Sansa, perhaps because of his history of rejection with women (since he views beautiful women as rejecting), so he cannot empathise with girl-problems -which is forced marriage/rape.

Arguably, it is not in Tyrion's self-interest to do so: Tyrion was both disinherited by Tywin and hated by Joffrey, which meant marital prostitution was not an option, as father's tend to arrange their daughter's marriage on the basis of whether the groom has the ability to support their daughter financially, and in societies like Westeros, the political clout to protect their daughter from harm. A father by arranging his daughter's marriage to a financially well off groom, ensures that she and her children (his grand children) are provided for. A father in Westeros (or in any feudal society) by arranging his daughters marriage to a man with political status he both protects her and her children from arbitrary cruelty, whilst also giving his grandson a voice in government, and if his daughter is clever and manipulative she also gains a voice in government (via influencing her husband).

It can basically be said that even if Tyrion had not been a dwarf, but Jaime had not joined the Kingsguard, Tyrion would have had less than high status bride. This can be seen, for instance in the fact that heirs like Brandon Stark, Rhaegar Targaryen, Robert Baratheon, even Jaime before he joined the KG, expected to marry high status brides, whilst younger sons like Kevan Lannister and Garlan Tyrell married brides of lesser rank, whilst Benjen Stark become a Night's Watchmen/monk.

Now since Tyrion was a dwarf, and fathers, whilst they do want their daughters to marry high status, also care about their daughter’s happiness (and the health of their grandchildren), so a father would only forgo his daughter’s happiness under the expectation that his daughter end up as Lady of Casterly Rock, and his grandson as Lord of Casterly Rock. So far the only offer Tyrion received was from Lollys, obviously Tyrion, despite the fact that he has nothing to offer a wife, still desires beautiful woman. Furthermore, Tyrion was not just ‘not the heir’ to Casterly Rock, but he was disinherited from the place and clearly hated by his powerful father and royal nephew. This lack of property and bad relationships with those in power, meant that Tyrion had not only nothing to offer a wife, but nothing to offer himself, since if Joffrey’s hatred put him at risk, then his lack of great-lordship put him at Joffrey’s mercy.

Therefore the only way for Tyrion to gain property (and thus be freed from Joffrey’s tyranny) is to marry an heiress, but because Tyrion has nothing to offer such a bride, since a woman in control over her own destiny, even a very plain woman like Brienne, can always do better than Tyrion. Thus the only woman who fulfilled Tyrion’s criteria (physical beauty and great lordship), whom Tyrion could ever hope to marry would be a woman with even less political clout than himself, which is to say a prisoner. So for Tyrion to empathise with Sansa, he would have to see that his desires are in fundamental conflict to her needs and that their marriage is inherently abusive to her, and since Tyrion wants to fulfil his desires more than he wants to meet her needs, that is not something that Tyrion can afford to do.

Fortunately he paid some of the price in misery, a little bit more of the price in his being framed for murder, and he can pay the rest of the price with an annulment or by swimming at the bottom of the Last River.

In contrast, Sandor, who is also ugly, is able to empathise with this tiny beautiful little girl. Now one could argue that it is in Sandor's self-interest to do so, since Sandor, unlike Tyrion, lacks the political capital to force a woman to marry him. Indeed given the tendency of fathers to arrange their daughter's marriages on the basis of what the groom has to offer financially (tempering in happiness) Sandor to, would also have to marry an heiress.

Now unlike Tyrion, Sandor’s ugliness does not render him an undesirable sperm donor, since his burns were acquired rather than being some sort inherited skin condition that looks like burns.

Whilst Sandor has other (inherited or genetic) attributes that more or less epitomise objective criteria for male beauty, namely great height, natural physical strength/broad shoulders, dark hair and heavier body hair (for instance, in our world no matter how many male models are pale, thin, pouty fellows, women are usually attracted to the features that I described above).

It is also worth noting that the only thing that Sandor does have to offer a woman, namely his skills as a fighter (which is physical strength and cunning) would be most valuable to a woman who controls property in her own right but is unable to fight herself (which is to say most women, whether they are heiresses or not).

But since such an heiress, where she controlled by the crown, would be married off to someone related to the ruling regime, therefore Sandor would not get an opportunity to press his suit, even though his suit would be probably be more favourably received by the girl, than Tyrion’s, since he lacks such access to government. Therefore it is in the self-interest of guys like Sandor that women like Sansa have freedom to choose their own husbands. Since if women were free, they would be more likely to make decision that would favour men like Sandor, over men like Tyrion, every time. Therefore for Sandor to empathise with Sansa, in her misery at Joffrey’s abuse and misery at her forced marriage (albeit badly expressed), is to empathise with someone whose wants (a strong warlike husband to protect her) coincide with his own needs (a wife with property).

The beauty of all of this is of course that Tyrion tries to feel sorry for Sansa, but he just can’t make himself feel anything for her, since his interests depend on his seeing her as an object that will fulfil his needs. Whilst Sandor, who isn’t at all interested in property, great lordship, or the game of thrones, and just loves Sansa for herself (her gentleness, grace, courtesy, compassion, beauty) finds it far easier to empathise with her, since he sees her as a person, rather than a footstool on the path to power (even if power is phrased as property and freedom), and is thus far more likely to gain Sansa’s love, and who knows, maybe there will be a happy ending.

[Elba the Intoner]

:agree:

Also, random thought: Tyrion got ugly guards for Shae, did Tywin pick an ugly (but competent) guard for Cersei and her offspring in the same way? We all know Cersei likes her pretty boys, so she wouldn't look twice at Sandor in a million years (which makes it even more LOL that Sansa does/did).

That's an interesting point I hadn't thought of but I do believe you are right that when Sandor was body guard for Cersei she would never look twice at him in that way while Sansa unconsciously is starting to. It does make me lol to think of it.

Re voodooqueen's comment:

"The beauty of all of this is of course that Tyrion tries to feel sorry for Sansa, but he just can’t make himself feel anything for her, since his interests depend on his seeing her as an object that will fulfil his needs. Whilst Sandor, who isn’t at all interested in property, great lordship, or the game of thrones, and just loves Sansa for herself (her gentleness, grace, courtesy, compassion, beauty) finds it far easier to empathise with her, since he sees her as a person, rather than a footstool on the path to power (even if power is phrased as property and freedom), and is thus far more likely to gain Sansa’s love, and who knows, maybe there will be a happy ending"

Very nicely said. For me, a happy ending for both Sansa and Sandor would simply mean that they end up knowing that the other cares for them, even if they don't end up together. Even if one of them does die by the end of all this :eek:, and I have a strong sad feeling that Sandor will, so long as he realizes that he was able to foster love in a girl like Sansa, rather than the tragedy of feeling like the Elder Brother says, that he has no one to love and no one who loves him, I think he would die happily at least. It would be the same for Sansa as all she wants now is someone who loves her for herself.

[voodooqueen126]

That's an interesting point I hadn't thought of but I do believe you are right that when Sandor was body guard for Cersei she would never look twice at him in that way while Sansa unconsciously is starting to. It does make me lol to think of it.

Re voodooqueen's comment:

"The beauty of all of this is of course that Tyrion tries to feel sorry for Sansa, but he just can’t make himself feel anything for her, since his interests depend on his seeing her as an object that will fulfil his needs. Whilst Sandor, who isn’t at all interested in property, great lordship, or the game of thrones, and just loves Sansa for herself (her gentleness, grace, courtesy, compassion, beauty) finds it far easier to empathise with her, since he sees her as a person, rather than a footstool on the path to power (even if power is phrased as property and freedom), and is thus far more likely to gain Sansa’s love, and who knows, maybe there will be a happy ending"

Very nicely said. For me, a happy ending for both Sansa and Sandor would simply mean that they end up knowing that the other cares for them, even if they don't end up together. Even if one of them does die by the end of all this :eek:, and I have a strong sad feeling that Sandor will, so long as he realizes that he was able to foster love in a girl like Sansa, rather than the tragedy of feeling like the Elder Brother says, that he has no one to love and no one who loves him, I think he would die happily at least. It would be the same for Sansa as all she wants now is someone who loves her for herself.

I guess moral victories make up pretty important elements of the tragic and rebirth plots.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSevenBasicPlots

[brashcandy]

Lyanna said:

He tells her himself to be more afraid of the dagger in the dark than someone waving a sword in your face. Both Tyrion and Sandor acted (or at least could act) as more direct threats to her in that way, but LF himself is really the dagger in the dark sort of dangerous. His warning to her here paralells what he told Ned in AGOT, only Ned didn't take him seriously. I think Sansa eventually will.

This is such a good point Lyanna, and one that Sansa knows all too well. For the number of times Sandor whips out his dagger or sword and places it at her throat and still doesn't harm her, she's already realised that the most dangerous threats are the ones you don't see coming.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Tyrion hasn't figured out yet that ugly does not necessarily mean "not sexy" lolololol