Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

Recommended Posts

So, in essence:

Life isn't a song.

But songs save lives.

A song will set you free.

You don't need no stinkin' songs.

That's a lot of conflicting messages about songs - no wonder Sansa keeps quiet! I'd be one confused teenager, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding Sansa being suspected of conspiring with Tyrion to murder Joff: sharp as the QoT and LF are, I think it is possible that the idea truly never crossed their minds. Cersei and Joff have made no secret of believing Sansa is barely functional intellectually, and it is very well known at court that Tyrion and Sansa's marriage has been (thus far) a miserable failure. I think they underestimated how hungry for vengeance Cersei would be or how far she would go to take her rage out on anyone connected to Tyrion as well as Tyrion himself, and they may have overlooked the fact that the men in their family who were obviously not in on the plot (Mace and Loras) would think jealousy would be an inarguable motive for Sansa. The QoT, Margaery, and LF are all well aware that Sansa would rather have been shot with flaming arrows than marry Joff, so maybe they assumed that this was as evident to everyone else as it was to them.

Two things I think support this: by inviting Sansa to Highgarden again (and immediately), I agree that the plotting Tyrells believed their plan to wed her to Willas was going to work out fine after all. If they had thought for a moment that Cersei would be insane enough, and Mace fool enough, to make Sansa a suspect as well, I think they would have arranged a convincing alibi for her.

Secondly, even LF's plans for Sansa would make more sense if she did not have a likely death sentence hanging over her head. Whether he plans to keep her for himself or truly broker her in marriage, the whole murder-suspect thing is a very large inconvenience. Especially since it is not just Cersei who believes it (as LF knew she was going to self destruct anyway). Mace and Loras may not be ultimately very concerned about who participated in offing Joffrey; they barely knew him. But they are convinced by Cersei that Sansa was in on it too, and think she meant Marg to die as well, and THAT is going to be the bigger sticking point in Sansa being clleared. Very inconvenient for two sets of people who already had Sansa's life mapped out for her, which a charge of kingslaying does not help.

I know it is hard to imagine people this crafty missing what seems to us to be such an obvious possibility, but given how much evidence they knew there would be against Tyrion, the fact that he and his wife were known to be in a farce of a marriage, and that important players thought Sansa slightly brighter than Moon Boy, I honestly think they never considered the possibility of Sansa being charged. If they had, then sending her to the feast wearing the murder weapon on her head was insanely stupid, and these people are not stupid. Obviously they considered Sansa the perfect vehicle to get the poison there exactly BECAUSE she was unlikely to be looked at as a possible accomplice.

One other thing: there is a mention somewhere (I can't remember where, perhaps during a conversation with Dontos?) where it is mentioned that Sansa has been given specific instructions on her escape. One has to assume that those instructions were designed to use the utter chaos of Joff's death as a distraction, while she made her escape. But we know Sansa had no clue that Joff was going to be killed, so I am burning with curiousity (which will almost certainly go unsatisfied) to know how she knew that there would be a moment when it was time to vanish, and what she was told that moment would involve. Did they just tell her, "all hell will break loose, and when it does, run"? Was there a signal of some sort given to her by one of the servers at the feast? I have to lean more toward the idea of maybe Dontos giving her some signal that the time had come ...otherwise she would not have known what qualified as all hell breaking loose. She might have thought it was occurring when Joff was dumping wine over Joff's head, and drawn suspicion by walking out when all eyes were on her section of the table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LadyoftheNorth, you make a convincing case and I tend to agree with you here. As I noted earlier, the QOT's boldfaced request that Sansa come with her to Highgarden strongly suggests that they were thinking of framing only Tyrion for the murder. In fact, as Queen Cersei noted upthread, for someone that is thought to be so cunning and intuitive, Tyrion really missed a big clue here that the Tyrells were plotting something that included him not being a factor in Sansa's life anymore. (but as usual, if a woman isn't gorgeous or flattering Tyrion, he has no use for them) I also have to wonder about the role of Lady Leonette in all this. Perhaps she was meant to get rid of the hairnet in the confusion?

As for how Sansa knew it was the right time to leave, I'm unsure. She seems to have left the hall in fear and terror more than anything else, but she was lucky not to be stopped. Lots of people were fleeing at this time too, so she was able to escape largely unnoticed. I suppose LF as usual, depended on a bit of luck and chaos here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing: there is a mention somewhere (I can't remember where, perhaps during a conversation with Dontos?) where it is mentioned that Sansa has been given specific instructions on her escape. One has to assume that those instructions were designed to use the utter chaos of Joff's death as a distraction, while she made her escape. But we know Sansa had no clue that Joff was going to be killed, so I am burning with curiousity (which will almost certainly go unsatisfied) to know how she knew that there would be a moment when it was time to vanish, and what she was told that moment would involve. Did they just tell her, "all hell will break loose, and when it does, run"? Was there a signal of some sort given to her by one of the servers at the feast? I have to lean more toward the idea of maybe Dontos giving her some signal that the time had come ...otherwise she would not have known what qualified as all hell breaking loose. She might have thought it was occurring when Joff was dumping wine over Joff's head, and drawn suspicion by walking out when all eyes were on her section of the table.

I would be extremely surprised that Littlefinger trusted Dontos enough to tell him, even a detail, on the upcoming Joffrey murder. I don’t even think he knew anything was going to happen at all.

Sansa and he probably had a signal for when to go though, since they were in the same room.

I’m sure the plan was to wait that the people got drunk and distracted, and then flea. Sansa could pretend she was going to the bathroom (I don’t think that’s how they call it in Westeros) but go instead to the godswood to meat with Dontos.

When Joffrey started to choke, it started a general hysteria; the timing was perfect even if unplanned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think she was meant to escape during the bedding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think she was meant to escape during the bedding.

But LF would know there was to be no bedding and the Tyrells certainly weren't going to let Marg endure that.

Another thing that struck me about this chapter is the Sansa/ Shae situation. Though Shae is presented as callous, bitchy, and predatory; an unjustified hater of poor Sansa Stark, I actually think Tyrion is showing unbelievable disrespect towards the feelings and self-respect of both girls. Here, he has his love interest serving as a maid for his wife. Though this is not new, when he walked in and saw them together in this chapter, I was struck anew by how incredibly callous and tacky Tyrion is acting here.

However, he does (apparently) feel somewhat guilty towards Sansa. However, he apparently feels very little concern over the feelings of Shae. Such as when he walks into the room and says to his new 13 year old wife, right in front of the girl who’s been giving him sex, laughing at his jokes, rubbing his legs, and playing his fantasy girlfriend for the past year or so, “You will be the most beautiful woman there.” Honestly, with comments like that, it’s not really all that hard to locate the source of Shae’s jealousy of and malice towards Sansa.

I agree that Tyrion misread both women. And his flippant dismissal of Shae definitely wouldn't have made her think too kindly of him when Cersei began her questioning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LadyoftheNorth, you make a convincing case and I tend to agree with you here. As I noted earlier, the QOT's boldfaced request that Sansa come with her to Highgarden strongly suggests that they were thinking of framing only Tyrion for the murder. In fact, as Queen Cersei noted upthread, for someone that is thought to be so cunning and intuitive, Tyrion really missed a big clue here that the Tyrells were plotting something that included him not being a factor in Sansa's life anymore. (but as usual, if a woman isn't gorgeous or flattering Tyrion, he has no use for them) I also have to wonder about the role of Lady Leonette in all this. Perhaps she was meant to get rid of the hairnet in the confusion?

As for how Sansa knew it was the right time to leave, I'm unsure. She seems to have left the hall in fear and terror more than anything else, but she was lucky not to be stopped. Lots of people were fleeing at this time too, so she was able to escape largely unnoticed. I suppose LF as usual, depended on a bit of luck and chaos here.

Littlefinger really was a bit sloppy in his planning. What if Sansa had frozen in horror, to watch Joffrey choke and die; and had still been there when Cersei went vengeance-mad and decided that Tyrion and Sansa killed her son? She would have been seized and imprisoned and condemned to death along with Tyrion. Littlefinger seems to have taken a lot for granted.

And if the Queen of Thorns still wanted Sansa for Willas (an intriguing possibility), she must not have known that Littlefinger planned to have Sansa run away during the wedding. How would the QoT have proven Sansa innocent of Joff's murder if Sansa had said yes to a visit to Highgarden? Brought her physically over to the Tyrell seats at the wedding, as if Sansa would commit such a breach of etiquette as to leave her husband, so that the QoT could say that Sansa had done nothing, she'd been with her and Margaery's maids the whole time while Joffrey was choking?

Makes me wonder to what extent the QoT and Littlefinger clued each other in on their plans for Joffrey and Sansa. All the QoT had to know was what Sansa was bringing in on her hairnet, and how to employ it to kill Joffrey (without killing Margaery); all Littlefinger had to know was where Sansa would be and how to get her out of the palace before Cersei started looking for her.

I can't believe that neither the QoT or LF, both quite intelligent people, might not guess that Cersei, or others, might finger Sansa as Joffrey's assassin. Whose father did Joffrey execute after promising him mercy? Whose mother and brother and teacher had been murdered by Lannister design? And Sansa herself had been bullied and beaten by Joffrey. If I had been Cersei, I would have suspected Sansa had at least some knowledge of the plot to kill Joffrey. And perhaps Cersei, like Tyrion, believed Sansa still loved Joffrey on some level and resented his marriage to Joffrey; especially since Cersei, in her terrible grief, was looking for the easiest and most obvious suspect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sullen? Seriously? I’d say utterly legitimately sad, depressed, and bereaved would be more accurate descriptions, but perhaps you mean sullen in a different sense then I generally use it.

Tyrion's own choice of words from this chapter, not mine. ;)

For instance, when he first met Jon Snow, no more or less mysterious than Sansa, he was able to understand (and connect with) the boy over a few short weeks. After spending significant time with Sansa, however, he still fails not only understand or connect with her, but to truly see her as a human being. He makes an effort to connect with her and empathize with her feelings (in a way that, notably, he never, ever does with Shae, whom he claims to love), however, these are always colored strongly by his obsession with her physical beauty and his lust for her. He is unable, as he was with Jon, to simply see her as a human being.

I agree. Tyrion also had a bigger chance to see men as human beings than women, since going back through Tysha and his mother, he has not had any woman in his life to relate to, apart from maybe Cersei. Who of course hated him. This is also why I quite like that Tyrion is in a place with Penny and Daenerys, since he'll be *forced* to both look after a quite sweet and innocent little girl who relies on him (Penny) and eventually have to face up to a woman boss (Dany) who I hope will teach him the value of STFU and when I say jump, you say how high. He needs to learn responsibility and that women are people just like him, not only to be classified either as ugly or sex toys.

During the entirety of ASOS, we see Tyrion getting more and more tangled in self denial and "fake love" for Shae. You are right that he thinks he loves her, and wants everything from her, but is not willing to give anything back.

However, he does (apparently) feel somewhat guilty towards Sansa. However, he apparently feels very little concern over the feelings of Shae. Such as when he walks into the room and says to his new 13 year old wife, right in front of the girl who’s been giving him sex, laughing at his jokes, rubbing his legs, and playing his fantasy girlfriend for the past year or so, “You will be the most beautiful woman there.” Honestly, with comments like that, it’s not really all that hard to locate the source of Shae’s jealousy of and malice towards Sansa.

I know! I facepalmed when I read that. So incredibly insensitive. It just goes to show that Tyrion does not consider Shae a real person, only a thing. As horrible as she is to him during the trial, it did not come out of the blue. Overall I thought taking Shae on as Sansa's maid was incredibly insensitive. No wonder Shake makes pointed comments about giving Sansa dreamwine so they can shag on the bed next to her. Tyrion fails to see that Shae is jealous of Sansa. She doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that had Sansa ever agreed to be a bit more warm towards Tyrion, or agree to sleep with him, Shae had been shoved out on her bum faster than she could say "seven hells".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love that Brash! That’s a nice allegory of Sansa’s relation with these men!

Especially since

  • Littlefinger tries to teach Sansa about what to believe and how to think, so he pushes her to understand and analyse those songs

  • Tyrion don’t want Sansa to have more songs, he denies them to her, as he is in denial about a lot of stuff in their “marriage”, also, he is not really interested in her, as he is not in those songs.

  • Sandor is the only one of them who just wants a song, no questions asked and no need to analyse anything. He is also the only one of these men to be interested in her for no other reasons then who she is as a person.

These three men also want different things from her.

* Littlefinger wants her to be his own daughter and the lost love from his youth at the same time, not Sansa Stark. He also seems to want her to be his mini-me, his accomplice, his image. LF's reasons are at least mostly selfish, if not completely selfish, especially since they incorporate a huge dose of forcing Sansa into self denial about what and who she is.

* Tyrion takes her on for her claim, i.e. power and social standing, but also because she is young and pretty and he wants her to play the role of Tysha II. Tyrion's reasons are purely selfish.

* Sandor wants....well what does he want? He seems conflicted himself, but out of all the things Sansa is, he seems to be the only one to want the bit of her that is only her. Are his reasons selfish? Maybe to a degree, but in fact he acts selflessly around Sansa almost constantly, even to the point of overstepping what he is allowed to do on more than one occasion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this talk of songs, makes me want to sing. :D

Anyway...... :P

Well, truthfully, Sandor's request did need a little analysing ;) and when Sansa talks about singing for him gladly, he laughs at that because he knows his desire isn't so innocent, but one thing for sure is that the trajectory of their relationship moves in a way that challenges him to become the knight in her songs, and at the end of it all the song he gets is the one neither of them expected would be sung, but was the ideal one nonetheless. I agree that Sandor as the only one desiring a song from her shows that he wants Sansa for Sansa, and the fact that it was a religious song, coupled with his treatment on the Quiet isle, suggest that he is moving even closer to the religious sphere that she holds near and dear. (and no, I don't think the Hound will ever be Lancel'd, but perhaps he will emerge closer to an ideal man for Sansa than ever before.)

Spot on brashcandy! And if you remember when he met her in her bedroom, he asked her to sing "Florian & Jonquil" , a song which he himself disparaged in the past, when she offered to sing it for him earlier in ACOK. (Come on Sandor, we know you loved those songs as a young boy). Of course we know he gets the song about the Mother. (I could go on, but it probably wouldn't be the right forum for it! :rolleyes: )

LF seems to be actively going out of his way to prove to her that life isn't a song, and is therefore concentrating her education now in game playing. It works for him to have her embittered and disillusioned so that she can put all her trust into him.

I'd really be upset to see her totally disillusioned and bitter. Hope that doesn't happen. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He needs to learn responsibility and that women are people just like him, not only to be classified either as ugly or sex toys.

IMO Tyrion's attitude and opinion of women has matured considerably since aGoT although I will admit he has a way to go. However keep in mind what Tyrion has had to overcome:

1. A patriarchial society

2. Growing up without a mother (being reminded constantly that you are the cause of her death)

3. Oldest female relationship Cersei

4. First (only) true love brutally tortured by your father, forced to watch her repeatedly raped, told she is nothing but a whore (hint that all women are whores after your Lannister gold), made to give her up by paying her as a whore seperating all emotional ties

5. Treated as an outcast by noble society (what father or mother wants his daughter to marry an imp?)

6. Captured by a deranged Catelyn Stark for a crime you didn't commit.

7. Almost murdered by an even more deranged Lysa Arryn for even more crimes you didn't commit.

I think I will stop there although I could go on and on. Really, given everything Tryion has been through its a wonder he didn't grow up to be Jack the Ripper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all I have to say that this has been an excellent discussion!

I agree with Raksha that LF's planning of Sansa's escape seems reckless. There are so many factors that could have intervened to keep her from getting out of there. And as Lady of the North said, I doubt we'll ever get satisfactory answers about this. Another factor is Dontos's role and how much he knew. I tend to agree with Maroucia that LF would not have told him much but then, how did Dontos know when to escape himself? If he hadn't shown up to take Sansa to the cliff, Sansa would have been stuck there and eventually found. As for the Tyrell's involvement, did any of the men in the family know? It seems clear Loras didn't and probably not Mace but what about Garlan, who I really like but is his gallantry all just an act to throw off suspicion? How would Olenna have cleared Sansa's name? I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't even consider the possibility that Cersei would accuse Sansa as well given that it was common knowledge that Joff gave her every reason to want him dead. So many questions . . . .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all I have to say that this has been an excellent discussion!

I agree with Raksha that LF's planning of Sansa's escape seems reckless. There are so many factors that could have intervened to keep her from getting out of there. And as Lady of the North said, I doubt we'll ever get satisfactory answers about this. Another factor is Dontos's role and how much he knew. I tend to agree with Maroucia that LF would not have told him much but then, how did Dontos know when to escape himself? If he hadn't shown up to take Sansa to the cliff, Sansa would have been stuck there and eventually found. As for the Tyrell's involvement, did any of the men in the family know? It seems clear Loras didn't and probably not Mace but what about Garlan, who I really like but is his gallantry all just an act to throw off suspicion? How would Olenna have cleared Sansa's name? I find it very hard to believe that they wouldn't even consider the possibility that Cersei would accuse Sansa as well given that it was common knowledge that Joff gave her every reason to want him dead. So many questions . . . .

I know! I think it's safe to say that LF and Olenna operated on a strict need to know basis. Of the Tyrells, I would say only Garlan and Margaery were in on the plot, maybe Lady Leonette as well. Even though Dontos might not have known who exactly would poison Joffrey, I think he was at least informed on the nature of the stones in the hairnet (or figured it out for himself), and was able to realise quickly when things started going south. The next chapter review tomorrow may shed some additional light on this. The planning was a bit reckless, but then again, the best plans perhaps have to be. LF provided all the ingredients for the pot, and left it to come to an inevitable boil. He was able to bet on the predictability of unpredictability, and when you have characters like Tyrion and Joffrey - both erratic and prideful, and who absolutely hate one another, it's not that hard to fathom that the night would have been explosive, giving the Tyrells the perfect opportunity to poison Joff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are some good clues in tomorrow's chapter. Also about the bedding comment, Sansa was told by Ser Dontos that her escape would be during the bedding. LF must have counted on her going to the Godswood the moment that Joff started choking, or Ser Dontos telling her to go there.

Not to get ahead of ourselves, but there is possibly, maybe another LF spy who might have provided evidence in Sansa's favour at the trial and counter balanced the only testimony against her, which was Shae's. But more of that tomorrow!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I will stop there although I could go on and on. Really, given everything Tryion has been through its a wonder he didn't grow up to be Jack the Ripper.

Lots of people had an unhappy childhood, or a trying one. For reference, Samwell Tarly, Jon Snow (to a degree), Sandor Clegane, Daenerys Targaryen, Podrick Payne. I'm sure there are lots more I have forgotten. Still, what runs like a theme through the novels is that the choices make us who we are. Tyrion is a smart guy, and he often makes shrewd choices. His blind spots are his strong wish to be loved and how he interacts with women; and especially beautiful women.

Tywin is no fool, he plays directly into Tyrion's weaknesses when he offers her Sansa in marriage. I'm also convinced Shae is Tywin's plant, or at least pawn, which would make sense given the outcome. I don't think having these weaknesses makes Tyrion anything like Jack the Ripper, it makes him a flawed character. As it happens, I think he had to face some of those weaknesses in ADWD and will probably have to deal with some more come TWOW.

I know! I think it's safe to say that LF and Olenna operated on a strict need to know basis. Of the Tyrells, I would say only Garlan and Margaery were in on the plot, maybe Lady Leonette as well.

Yes! I have always thought Garlan must be in on it, which would make him a class A sneaky arsehole since he's nice to Tyrion all the time. Or maybe he just hadn't realised the blame would fall on Tyrion, but on the Dornish. Oberyn seems to think that is Cersei hadn't named Tyrion, the Dornish would have been made the scapegoats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes! I have always thought Garlan must be in on it, which would make him a class A sneaky arsehole since he's nice to Tyrion all the time. Or maybe he just hadn't realised the blame would fall on Tyrion, but on the Dornish. Oberyn seems to think that is Cersei hadn't named Tyrion, the Dornish would have been made the scapegoats.

my idea too the tyrells certainly didn't knew that the blame would fall on tyrion and sansa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my idea too the tyrells certainly didn't knew that the blame would fall on tyrion and sansa

Lady Olenna's desire to take Sansa away heavily suggests that they did, along with Garlan's buttering up of Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lady Olenna's desire to take Sansa away heavily suggests that they did, along with Garlan's buttering up of Tyrion.

Who had it thought the Tyrells can sink lower. I officially dislike them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×