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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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Lady Olenna's desire to take Sansa away heavily suggests that they did, along with Garlan's buttering up of Tyrion.

I would suspect Garlan less if he hadn't already "played Renly's ghost" by dressing in his armour. Also Tyrion does say that his seating could be taken for a slight at the beginning of the chapter....but it could have been more deliberately planned.

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I would suspect Garlan less if he hadn't already "played Renly's ghost" by dressing in his armour. Also Tyrion does say that his seating could be taken for a slight at the beginning of the chapter....but it could have been more deliberately planned.

Very good points. Just why would Margaery's brother be seated so far away from the other nobles. And when Marg comes over to retrieve Joffrey, Tyrion notes that she doesn't even look at him (he's soaked in wine at this point), which could be a sign that she knew they were going to frame him and didn't want to look guilty or nervous.

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Very good points. Just why would Margaery's brother be seated so far away from the other nobles. And when Marg comes over to retrieve Joffrey, Tyrion notes that she doesn't even look at him (he's soaked in wine at this point), which could be a sign that she knew they were going to frame him and didn't want to look guilty or nervous.

Indeed. The Bride's beloved brother Sitting at the far end of the table beside the Groom's hated uncle and Sansa Stark, his ex-betrothed.

Maybe we are reading too much into this, but the whole scene now looks really suspicious....especially Marg, Garlan and Olenna. Also Garlan is the first to push Tyrion out of his way to go and help Joff....or make sure none of the evidence points to Marg or the Tyrells.

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About Garlan Tyrell being part of the plot to murder Joffrey, I think it’s very likely he also knew that Tyrion would be framed. I even think he tried to add oil to the fire by acting empathic and shocked every time Joffrey was being an ass to Tyrion.

Examples:

After Joffrey destroyed the book about the Kings of Westeros that Tyrion offered him, Garlan immediately says:

“Your Grace … Perhaps you did not know. In all of Westeros there were but four copies of that book illuminated in Kaeth’s own hand.”

This is officially addressed to Joffrey, but it could really be meant to highlight Joffrey’s insolence and contempt of everything that is related to Tyrion; it’s possible that Garlan just wanted to make sure Tyrion would not let that go unnoticed.

Later, at the wedding feast, after Joffrey emptied his wine glass on Tyrion, Garlan tells Joffrey that it was ill done, he is again the only one to seem to be sympathetic to Tyrion, but that could be another way to make sure Tyrion gets even madder at Joffrey.

To me, he is not being nice to Tyrion, he is provoking him.

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I agree Maroucia, and he even tells Tyrion about how much he appreciated his chain during the battle and how it helped them to win. Of course, the effect of all of this is to make Tyrion feel even more keenly the lack of gratitude his own family gave him. What's really hilarious in reading that bit back is that right after Tyrion has fallen hook, line and sinker for Garlan's flattery, he proceeds to tell Sansa not to believe everything she hears in a song!

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not to mention that Garlan stole land which officially belongs to Randyl tarlys wife

That's a good point actually. It could possibly mean that Tarly could be "turned" by one of the other factions later on since he got passed over for Garlan. I agree with you all here that it seems likely from these chapters Garlan had a hand in it, and possibly his wife as well. I guess it's another example of people underestimating those who seem nice and courteous.

The thing is, Garlan's comment to Joffrey might very well have been what he thought himself, since we know that the Tyrells basically think Joffrey a little tosser, but it still highlights the deception of the Tyrells. Dontos was quite right when he called the Tyrells "Lannisters with flowers". They are almost worse and just as ruthless, they just look a bit prettier.

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Tywin is no fool, he plays directly into Tyrion's weaknesses when he offers her Sansa in marriage. I'm also convinced Shae is Tywin's plant, or at least pawn, which would make sense given the outcome. I don't think having these weaknesses makes Tyrion anything like Jack the Ripper, it makes him a flawed character. As it happens, I think he had to face some of those weaknesses in ADWD and will probably have to deal with some more come TWOW.

Yes! I have always thought Garlan must be in on it, which would make him a class A sneaky arsehole since he's nice to Tyrion all the time. Or maybe he just hadn't realised the blame would fall on Tyrion, but on the Dornish. Oberyn seems to think that is Cersei hadn't named Tyrion, the Dornish would have been made the scapegoats.

Gee, I feel like I just got hit by a bus. If Shae might be Tywin's plant, what about Bronn? Tyrion sends Bronn out to find him a woman, and he has to hunt around to find Shae - didn't he say he had to take her from another lord? We are never told who that lord is, highly suspicious in GRRM territory, no? Bronn is introduced to Tywin (though without the book here, I can't remember if the intro was before or after finding Shae), and we know Tyrion bought his loyalty with gold and promises. Tywin is certainly smart enough to buy off Bronn so that he has two spies in Tyrion's household. And after the BBW, Bronn does get knighted and gets Lollys. And GRRM has said we will be seeing more of Bronn in the future.

As for Garlan, I have always wondered about his comment that Tyrion would make a better husband for her than Loras, if that comment could cover both Loras' sexual orientation and the fact Sansa would not be married for long.

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Gee, I feel like I just got hit by a bus. If Shae might be Tywin's plant, what about Bronn? Tyrion sends Bronn out to find him a woman, and he has to hunt around to find Shae - didn't he say he had to take her from another lord? We are never told who that lord is, highly suspicious in GRRM territory, no? Bronn is introduced to Tywin (though without the book here, I can't remember if the intro was before or after finding Shae), and we know Tyrion bought his loyalty with gold and promises. Tywin is certainly smart enough to buy off Bronn so that he has two spies in Tyrion's household. And after the BBW, Bronn does get knighted and gets Lollys. And GRRM has said we will be seeing more of Bronn in the future.

As for Garlan, I have always wondered about his comment that Tyrion would make a better husband for her than Loras, if that comment could cover both Loras' sexual orientation and the fact Sansa would not be married for long.

If Bronn really had been acting as a double agent, spying on Tyrion for Tywin, and chose Shae on Tywin's demand so that she could be a second spy in Tyrion's household, that would bring many new elements on the table.

1) A prostitute would be a perfect spy for Tywin since he's always complaining about his son whoring. He knew that by forbidding Tyrion to bring his whore with him at the red keep, he would be tempting him to do it, since Tyrion loves defying authority.

2) It would give more credibility to my crackpot theory about Tywin being a part of the plot to murder Joffrey. That could mean that Shae was since the beginning supposed to help frame Tyrion for the trial.

One of the problems with that crazy theory is that it would make it hard to understand why Tywin wanted to marry Tyrion to Sansa if he was to frame him just after. I guess I'm just taking my desire for reality on that matter, since it would be such an incredible twist to learn that Tywin was the mastermind behind his grandson's murder and framed his own son as the killer.

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too random the way they met. not to mention that he named his wife's bastard tyrion

That was not to honour Tyrion though, I think Bronn just wanted to mock everyone of those high maintenance Lords, Knights and Ladies by giving his adoptive son the same name then the King's murderer.

I do agree that the way they met seemed a little random for it to be planned though.

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Both Sansa and Tyrion are not providing each other with what they need. Of course, the entirety of the blame for this miserable situation falls on Tyrion's shoulders. As it is, I do have to question this idea that Tyrion wants Sansa (in particular) to challenge him conversationally. Sure, I suppose that he wishes she was more open, and accomodating to him, and certainly he might appreciate a woman with more "wit" and boldness, but overall, my feelings are that Tyrion wants a pretty wife in his bed who thinks that the sun rises and sets on him - basically a Tysha 2.0. When he's with Shae and feeling guilty, he thinks:

Then he goes on to think that he can't trust Sansa because she betrayed her own father. He might desire Sansa to come willingly to his bed, but he's still harbouring a lot of mistrust towards her too. Tyrion chose Sansa IMO purely on the basis of two things:

- her looks

- Winterfell

Yes let's forget about the fact that his father made him have no choice....

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Secondly, even LF's plans for Sansa would make more sense if she did not have a likely death sentence hanging over her head. Whether he plans to keep her for himself or truly broker her in marriage, the whole murder-suspect thing is a very large inconvenience.

I think LF knew full well she would be blamed...and this plays right into his hands and it ensures Sansa won't make a move to escape from his ever-loving protection. If she runs, she risks her life as she is accused of kingslaying!

LF is playing right into that............he's keeping his captive...by having a willing, fearful captive

He also knows the Lannisters are on shaky ground and most likely has no doubts the charges will soon be dropped

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too random the way they met. not to mention that he named his wife's bastard tyrion

That was not to honour Tyrion though, I think Bronn just wanted to mock everyone of those high maintenance Lords, Knights and Ladies by giving his adoptive son the same name then the King's murderer.

I do agree that the way they met seemed a little random for it to be planned though.

I just happened to have the book in my briefcase. Bronn tells Tyrion Shae belonged to a knight but wouldn't tell him the name even though Tyrion wanted to know if he had made an enemy. Bronn all says all the other available girls were ugly, but the description of Shae is that she is 18 and quite lovely. When Tyrion asks who she had been with, she names a minor retainer of an insignificant lordling. That doesn't sound like a knight. And why would a minor retainer of a nothing lordling have a lovely campfollower. Surely others would have been looking just like Tyrion.

The thought both are Tyrion's spies is a reasonable one because they both need to work for their money and neither has any reason to be loyal to Tyrion. If Bronn in his wanderings around the camp looking for a woman ran into a Lannister knight who reported what happened to Tywin, Tywin could have arranged to buy both their loyalties. And if he didn't do it then, it's a thought to keep in mind in KL.

My suspicions really arise out of the fact Bronn wouldn't name the knight, and Shae named someone who doesn't fit the description of a knight. And then Bronn gets a knighthood while Tyrion is seriously injured and no one knows if he'll live or die. Tyrion was very upset Bronn got the knighthood from his father not from him, because it means loyalty may have moved away from him. And don't forget, he thinks the Kettleblacks are Cersei's and he bribes them away from Cersei, not ever knowing they are Littlefinger's men.

This may all seem off topic, but I think it is more evidence that while Tyrion is sharp and always thinking, he can still be fooled.

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I know! I think it's safe to say that LF and Olenna operated on a strict need to know basis. Of the Tyrells, I would say only Garlan and Margaery were in on the plot, maybe Lady Leonette as well. Even though Dontos might not have known who exactly would poison Joffrey, I think he was at least informed on the nature of the stones in the hairnet (or figured it out for himself), and was able to realise quickly when things started going south. The next chapter review tomorrow may shed some additional light on this. The planning was a bit reckless, but then again, the best plans perhaps have to be. LF provided all the ingredients for the pot, and left it to come to an inevitable boil. He was able to bet on the predictability of unpredictability, and when you have characters like Tyrion and Joffrey - both erratic and prideful, and who absolutely hate one another, it's not that hard to fathom that the night would have been explosive, giving the Tyrells the perfect opportunity to poison Joff.

Darn it, can't figure out how to multi-quote. :angry:

I think that Dontos did have some sort of idea what was going to happen, but probably not everything. He did say this about the hairnet back in ACOK:

“You’ve waited so long, be patient awhile longer. Here, I have something for you.” Ser Dontos fumbled in his pouch and drew out a silvery spiderweb, dangling it between his thick fingers. It was a hair net of fine-spun silver, the strands so thin and delicate the net seemed to weigh no more than a breath of air when Sansa took it in her fingers. Small gems were set wherever two strands crossed, so dark they drank the moonlight.

“What stones are these?”

“Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight.”

“It’s very lovely,” Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair.

“Lovelier than you know, sweet child. It’s magic, you see. It’s justice you hold. It’s vengeance for your father.” Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. “It’s home.”

Did he know what the stones really were? I tend to think so. He probably didn't know that she was going to the Vale though.

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IMO Bronn served Tyrion rather well, though. I personally don't think he was a Tywin spy. If he was, it certainly didn't seem to serve a purpose. In the end, Bronn didn't champion Tyrion because.....it was Gregor. Can't blame him there.

Shae? Same thing, if she was a spy it didn't seem to serve a real purpose. Shae and Tywin are both dead now so if any thing was there....it's gone now.

As far as Tyrion being forced to marry Sansa....well one could argue Twin was forcing Casterly Rock on Jaime but Jaime told him "no" quite well. Tyrion chose to not say no.

If Shae did have feelings for Tyrion, I think his behavior ensured those feelings died. We won't ever know if she did or not....as we don't get her POV.

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I think LF knew full well she would be blamed...and this plays right into his hands and it ensures Sansa won't make a move to escape from his ever-loving protection. If she runs, she risks her life as she is accused of kingslaying!

LF is playing right into that............he's keeping his captive...by having a willing, fearful captive

He also knows the Lannisters are on shaky ground and most likely has no doubts the charges will soon be dropped

Definitely agree with you on this Christina Ceriddwynn! He wants to use fear to bind her to him, it's just another link in that chain he's using to keep her close.

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A Queen of Winter

Took me a while to clue in, but it's easy. Go to Reply to this topic and click. Go up to the first quote and click MultiQuote. Type in your response, or if you want to list the quotes, go to the next post you want to quote and click MultiQuote again.

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A Queen of Winter

Took me a while to clue in, but it's easy. Go to Reply to this topic and click. Go up to the first quote and click MultiQuote. Type in your response, or if you want to list the quotes, go to the next post you want to quote and click MultiQuote again.

Thank you, Fragile Bird! This board is configured differently to others I've used in the past, so I was bit lost. :P I'll give your directions a go! :thumbsup:

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Yes let's forget about the fact that his father made him have no choice....

Yes, actually Tyrion had other choices. His father told him that he would find him someother girl if he wouldn't take Sansa:

"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock."

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