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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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The one name that is glaringly absent? The one person that it's obvious LF has no clue about? The one development that LF was not able to predict, and the one connection that LF is not able to twist and spoil?

Do I even have to write his name?

Jaime (the warrior golden like the sun) and Sandor(the other) ^_^

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@ Brashcandy

No you don't have to write his name. However LF might thank you if you did. What we have seen so far is that LF can play people like Tyrion because he knows them inside out. He thinks he knows Sansa and to an extent he does, but she has kept so much inside that he doesn't really know her either despite thinking he does. Her "friendship" with Sandor is unknown to anyone. Sandor also kept his true self hidden and therefore LF presumably would think he knows him too, if they were to meet again.

This is a good point. The only possible people who know are Arya, who brushes it aside (and who is far away), and Elder Brother, who might have heard Sandor's confession.

I doubt Littlefinger thinks Sansa has any facets of her personality that are very much hidden from him, but in this case, she does. It's probably not even likely that LF knows if Sandor acted differently to the other Kingsguard. For all LF knows, he might have beaten her just like the rest. If LF had thought Sansa's interaction with the Hound had been important, I imagine he would have mentioned him among the people she needed to forget?

For all we know, LF may think Sandor really is the raider in Saltpans as well, and that he's now joined the BWB since Lem has the helmet.

Maybe it will mean Sansa will have an ace up her sleeve that LF hasn't counted on.

Jaime (the warrior golden like the sun) and Sandor(the other) ^_^

You know, I also always thought it was Jaime, but most seem to think the golden sun-like one is Oberyn. Sandor is clearly the grey shadow in the Hound's helmet and Gregor probably the huge one. But Oberyn has nothing to do with the Stark girls so that never made sense to me. Jaime has more direct impact.

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@Lyanna

Yes, I definitely think Martin wanted to draw our attention to the fact that LF had no idea about her relationship with Sandor. He calls out all the names of the men he knows she had some kind of interaction and relationship with, and makes sure to paint them all as foolish, easily manipulated or callous. Can you imagine what he would have said about Sandor if he knew what had taken place between them? And he wants Sansa to trust him alone, but we know she already places a huge amount of trust in another man who is the antithesis of everything LF represents. So there's a real conflict going on here, and it's lovely that LF has no idea about it, or how it could potentially undermine all his plans.

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I think this point will tie into the next chapter quite well. LF is teaching Sansa the game, but unaware that she is already in possession of certain skills such as giving people what they want, and telling people what they want to hear. I'm not sure how aware of that he is.

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I think this point will tie into the next chapter quite well. LF is teaching Sansa the game, but unaware that she is already in possession of certain skills such as giving people what they want, and telling people what they want to hear. I'm not sure how aware of that he is.

I think he is completly oblivious of her entire personality

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@ Scorpian Knight

That's a good point. LF maybe mentally mixing up Cat and Sansa to some extent. He is trying to recreate the lost love with Sansa, but Sansa is not Cat. She is a Stark, not the Duty, Family, Honour Tully.

Actually LF and Tyrion Both try to make Sansa into their lost loves: Cat2.0 and Tysha2.0. Neither man truly wants to get to know her. Tyrion is annoyed by the few facets of Sansa's true character that he gets to see, such as her religious devotion and LF is trying to manipulate her into becoming a different person.

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Actually one thing that I did find strange was Sansa's crying, or not that so much as her lack of coldness.

When she saw that young knight being killed back at the Hand's tourney, she is very cold (whilst Jeyne' bursts into tears). Whre as in this chapter she is quite a bit more emotional.

I wonder if it's just context though: could she calmly watch someone die if she wasn't otherwise in a nervous state?

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Actually one thing that I did find strange was Sansa's crying, or not that so much as her lack of coldness.

When she saw that young knight being killed back at the Hand's tourney, she is very cold (whilst Jeyne' bursts into tears). Whre as in this chapter she is quite a bit more emotional.

I wonder if it's just context though: could she calmly watch someone die if she wasn't otherwise in a nervous state?

I think it's a combination of the facts that she is in a very nervous state and has been on edge the entire day (well really her entire time in KL since her father died) and the fact that she knows the people who were killed much more personally. And even though she had no love for Joff at the time of his death, seeing someone dying in front of you has to be very different from hearing about death in a song.

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@ Scorpian Knight

That's a good point. LF maybe mentally mixing up Cat and Sansa to some extent. He is trying to recreate the lost love with Sansa, but Sansa is not Cat. She is a Stark, not the Duty, Family, Honour Tully.

Actually LF and Tyrion Both try to make Sansa into their lost loves: Cat2.0 and Tysha2.0. Neither man truly wants to get to know her. Tyrion is annoyed by the few facets of Sansa's true character that he gets to see, such as her religious devotion and LF is trying to manipulate her into becoming a different person.

This is very interesting Rapsie. I would tend to think that she embodies both the Tully and Stark values, but you're very right that she may be more Stark-ish than LF realises. I do think she will be a lot more rebellious than he expects, and his whole "dutiful daughter" plan might crash and burn.

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Well, my original post was eaten.....again! :angry: :angry:

So far, Sansa's story hasn't played out like one of her songs, but aspects of her journey have still been very poignant and meaningful.

I very much agree with you, brashcandy. I think she's done remarkably well with regards to her situation, considering she's really still very young.

And finally, what I found most interesting and delightful in this chapter

The one name that is glaringly absent? The one person that it's obvious LF has no clue about? The one development that LF was not able to predict, and the one connection that LF is not able to twist and spoil? Do I even have to write his name?

You managed to put a smile on my face with that one brashcandy! :D And it's probably one person that LF least expects his "daughter" to have a connection with. I've always liked that Sandor and Sansa's "thing" was just between the two of them, kind of kept hidden. :rolleyes:

For all we know, LF may think Sandor really is the raider in Saltpans as well, and that he's now joined the BWB since Lem has the helmet.

I still think the whole Saltpans "mix-up" is going to cause big problems later on, but I digress...

Maybe it will mean Sansa will have an ace up her sleeve that LF hasn't counted on.

I was thinking this while reading the thread @ work! (Bad, I know! :o ) You totally read my mind! :lol:

You know, I also always thought it was Jaime, but most seem to think the golden sun-like one is Oberyn. Sandor is clearly the grey shadow in the Hound's helmet and Gregor probably the huge one. But Oberyn has nothing to do with the Stark girls so that never made sense to me. Jaime has more direct impact.

Yeah, I believe that the golden knight was meant to be Jaime too. (Though I can see why some people say it's Oberyn).

There are just too many hidden tidbits/mysteries in this series that I want to know the truth about! Arrrgh! :bang:

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@QoW - :) With the board so unstable these days, I always copy my posts before I hit send, so that if it's lost, I can just paste it back!

----

GRRM really seems to go out of his way to remind us of the connection between Sansa and Sandor even when she has no reason to think of him. Not only does his name stand out because it's missing from the ones LF mentions, but also there was no other need for LF to tell Sansa there was a cloak in her chest except to remind us of the cloak she was hiding. I mean come on, GRRM, stop trolling us already :)

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NOOOOOOO!! So now you are making me doubt my like of Garlan! It's not fair. What about when he danced with Sansa after her wedding to Tyrion? That was nice of him and he didn't have to do it and it made Sansa happy for a brief moment. Well I refuse to dislike him, so there!

Allthough it has been almost taken for granted on this thread, we don't know for sure if Garlan was involved in the plot to kill Joffrey. That he was insincere in his interactions with Tyrion (and by extension, probably Sansa as well) is possible but speculative. He is clearly smarter than Loras and Mace and thus possibly an able accomplice for Olenna and co, but on the other hand the lesser people who know, the better. The most likely poisoner is probably Margaery herself anyway, since that is one way to make sure she doesn't drink at the wrong moment.

A nice point was made in one of the recent posts, about Sansa having to smuggle out some of her own clothing to the Godswood. Seems indeed pretty risky, not only does she have to transport the clothes unnoticed by guards/Tyrion/courtiers etc but she also has to avoid her maids noticing some clothes are missing.

I hope Sansa will be wary of LF later, her AFFC chapters are not very clear about her feelings IIRC (but this will come up in due time, of course). One thing I did notice in this chapter is Lothor Brune's involvement in Dontos' death as LF's right-hand man (in military matters, anyway). Given Sansa's friendship with Brune in AFFC, I wonder how this will affect the outcome once Sansa turns on LF.

Interestingly, Sansa right away pities Tyrion (presumably for him getting the blame for the murder) as she said she didn't know if she was weeping for Dontos, for Joffrey, for Tyrion or herself.

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@Wouter,

Without jumping ahead to the Vale chapters, I would have to say that Martin seems to setting Lothor up as a kind of Sandor-substitute/surrogate. When he was knighted for his services during the Blackwater and given land and keeps, it shed light on how someone could gain favour from military service. In this chapter and later on we see him as a very loyal servant (just like Sandor was), doing all his lord commands.

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@QoW - :) With the board so unstable these days, I always copy my posts before I hit send, so that if it's lost, I can just paste it back!

Yep, that's exactly what I've been doing. The board keeps going down, and has multiple times for me in the last hour or so. :(

----

GRRM really seems to go out of his way to remind us of the connection between Sansa and Sandor even when she has no reason to think of him. Not only does his name stand out because it's missing from the ones LF mentions, but also there was no other need for LF to tell Sansa there was a cloak in her chest except to remind us of the cloak she was hiding. I mean come on, GRRM, stop trolling us already :)

I know! The whole thing is absolutely killing me. :laugh: My brain is going to be mush by the time the series is finished! :stillsick:

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As it have been discussed recently, it is more then possible that the overall feelings that the court had concerning Sansa where sympathetics. Joffrey was such a tyrants, that no one had the courage to show any support to Sansa, even though it’s likely that most of the people who witnessed how she was treated, were disgusted by it.

Lady Tanda’s declaration to Sansa goes this way and makes me feel that everyone hanging around the Red Keep might never spoke to her, but they were keeping their eyes on her.

That’s why her behaviour at he gnats’ tourney was noticed; saving ser Dontos was very brave of her, and probably brought her some secret admiration. Sansa’s old maid, Brella, even talked about it to Brienne, which could give an hint that it was a talked about event, secretly of course.

This whole idea just makes me wonder, if all eyes were on her when she saved Dontos, it would also means that everyone witnessed Sandor lying to Joffrey to help her… The court is not only full of fools like Joffrey, there must have been a few people who realised that the hound was jumping in Sansa’s game to save her from Joffrey’s furry. This could mean that a few of those witness might have a pinch of suspicion concerning those two (a really tiny one though).

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Great analysis Rapsie!! There are so many little things here that are so subtle and easily overlooked on a first read. For example, the analogy of the suits of armor looking like dragons in the flicker of candlelight could mean that dragons will return, was very interesting. Now in reading these chapters again I feel like I have to look at every sentence so closely for some symbolism of other things going on in the story or hints of things yet to come, or hints of Littlefingers involvement, which is everywhere. Brella being LF's spy is another good example. When I first read that it was Varys who suggested her I just figured she was a spy for him but then why would she end up in a brothel and be saying that Sansa has probably gone North. Varys has no reason to spread false information like that. That is quite strange and is more fitting if it was LF she was spying for. Also, the observation of how LF invades Sansa's space immediately after suffering a very harrowing few hours and not only that but proceeds to tell her how he and her mother were together is really creepy! I mean, eeewww.

Another thing I have to mention is how terrible I feel for poor Dontos! Again, when I read this the first time I actually believed LF that Dontos was just doing this for the money and I felt really betrayed about it just as I can imagine Sansa must have felt. Now, I can't believe that I actually fell for that. Dontos was crying at one point and he wears his house suit of arms to be a real knight at least this one time. If he were truly just doing this for the money and didn't care at all, then he wouldn't have done all that. It's really amazing the depths LF will stoop to get what he wants. Considering the huge risk he took with Sansa's life and freedom, I really have to question if he does care for her at all.

As for the little detail of Sansa thinking that she'll be brave just like in the songs, I loved that! She's still sticking to her belief in the songs and that gives her strength. Of course it's ironic that she ends up with LF who tells her that life is not a song.

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Also, the observation of how LF invades Sansa's space immediately after suffering a very harrowing few hours and not only that but proceeds to tell her how he and her mother were together is really creepy! I mean, eeewww.

Definitely, considering that he's lying to her about that. :ack:

Another thing I have to mention is how terrible I feel for poor Dontos! Again, when I read this the first time I actually believed LF that Dontos was just doing this for the money and I felt really betrayed about it just as I can imagine Sansa must have felt. Now, I can't believe that I actually fell for that. Dontos was crying at one point and he wears his house suit of arms to be a real knight at least this one time. If he were truly just doing this for the money and didn't care at all, then he wouldn't have done all that. It's really amazing the depths LF will stoop to get what he wants. Considering the huge risk he took with Sansa's life and freedom, I really have to question if he does care for her at all.

I don't think he really "cares" for her at all. LF is only out for LF (but that's just my opinion).

As for the little detail of Sansa thinking that she'll be brave just like in the songs, I loved that! She's still sticking to her belief in the songs and that gives her strength. Of course it's ironic that she ends up with LF who tells her that life is not a song.

I hope she's the one who sings him a song of his own, a dirge (in his honor of course!) :laugh:

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And yet another reason why Sansa is not a cold-hearted, vengeful person: while I’m sure she wasn’t in a way sorry that Joffrey died, neither was she gloating on it, so that indeed makes her a good person. And when she feels sorry for Margaery being twice a widow- I know she is about 3 years younger than her, but she comes across as still having an innocent mind here since I tend to think Margaery wasn’t sad to be twice a widow. IMO margaery may have thought that being a widow was a tiresome job sort of like cersei, wearing mourning and such, but that’s as far as her feelings for joff’s death went.

Still, innocent she may be in some things, but sansa is also very clever by making the connection of joff’s death with her hairnet. I would have not even noticed it, yet she, under really dangerous circumstances, could come up with this theory which is right. And she can also still try to comfort another person in need, though she herself has needed to be comforted for about a year: here when she comforts dontos when he is crying. I think that when he states the reason why he is wearing his old armor thing, it is ser donto’s finest hour. And she also thought of him when she decided to go down that cliff cause if she didn’t he would also probably die. Her behavior here resembles a situation in the next book with her cousin, showing that she always puts others before her.

This is indeed an important chapter both for sansa’s current situation and for the future. When she is older she will recall this night as the first in the new century, so… but presently cause I think that her soul is basically longing for some rest. Since Ned’s execution she has had to struggle to keep her emotions at bay every single day, which probably drench her emotionally and physically. The place where LF is taking her & her role in the next book is not only to learn the game of thrones, but to get stronger.

About the cloaks: yes, where is the white cloak!? And is the cedar chest in the ship the one from her bedroom? & I didn’t like LF covering sansa with his cloak… love that LF has no clue though about sandor, so he can’t warn her about the man who is possibly the one with the most chances to win her heart. I also love the chain Tyrion had build for the blackwater being compared to her marriage, raspie! As well as the hollow knights coming resemblance, and your theory about the servant brella. I used to think that maybe LF got a hold of the seamstress who measured sansa for her wedding dress, but your theory is better!

About Tyrion: I think she was happy no longer to have to be with Tyrion, but not have him killed as others said. She was not ungrateful to him, but I think she wondered if she wasn’t better off with him than LF cause she was afraid of the unkonw…

And now about LF: when sansa wonders if she has escaped the Lannisters only to end up in a worse place reminded me of the “out of the frying pan & into the fire” phrase. & it’s amazingly sick to see how since the first moment basically since they meet on the ship, LF is already trying to get the point over to sansa that she can only count on him (killing dontos and dismissing the honor his acts had since he “sold her” (this reminds me of the “no one will ever love you for your claim part” since though dontos said this to her, he still did save her for the money, not only to be her florian & resuce her) and also by saying that she is now being hunted for, so she better stay with him or she’ll end up death.)

And my analysis on LF: I think his thing for sansa is quite selfish. Let’s recall arya. Since she looks like ned I bet he didn’t really care that much about her, for a start. Yet, if he had loved Cat as much as he’s led himself believe, why then not care about both of cat’s children, not just the one that happens to look like a better version of his long lost love? Sure, arya is believed dead by almost everyone, but we never had the weird vibe between these two in AGOT when things were normal for the stark girls. So, petyr only wants sansa cause she represents what he was unable to gain back in his youth, so being a stubborn man, he must think it’s better to have a similar version of the woman he wanted to none at all…

& to wrap up: I wonder what petyr did when he learned about the red wedding? He seems to have recovered pretty quickly by the time this chapter takes place (agree that he isn’t exaclt a person to let his feelings show) but I can only imagine that if sansa hadn’t existed or something, he would have gone- what, crazy? Not cared? Depressed?

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Another thing I have to mention is how terrible I feel for poor Dontos! Again, when I read this the first time I actually believed LF that Dontos was just doing this for the money and I felt really betrayed about it just as I can imagine Sansa must have felt. Now, I can't believe that I actually fell for that. Dontos was crying at one point and he wears his house suit of arms to be a real knight at least this one time. If he were truly just doing this for the money and didn't care at all, then he wouldn't have done all that. It's really amazing the depths LF will stoop to get what he wants. Considering the huge risk he took with Sansa's life and freedom, I really have to question if he does care for her at all.

I know!!! I kept believing everything Littlefinger said while my fist reading! Wow, I was naive. I know better now. :cool4:

  1. When Littlefinger said Willas was boring, I was sure he was telling the truth and never thought that he was trying to influence Sansa to believe that he was the only interesting man in all of Westeros. We still don’t know anything about Willas, but there are no reasons to think of him as boring.
  2. Littlefinger pretends that Dontos sold Sansa and didn’t care one bit about her. That surely doesn’t fit with what we saw just a few minutes before: Dontos crying tears of joy from saving Sansa.
  3. And then, Petyr tells Sansa he had no other choice then to kill Dontos, since he could never keep a secret and would reveal where Sansa was heading after he drank all of his money. Littlefinger thought Dontos trustworthy enough to imply him in his plans to murder Joffrey though…

At least I never believed him when he was proudly suggesting to Sansa that he took her mother’s virginity… :ack:

Is he really thinking this is how you seduce a girl? By telling her you took her mother’s maidenhead?? Does he think she will want to sleep with him after that?

Wow, I love sharing stuff with my mother, but not that kind of stuff!!! :ack:

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As we will not be covering any more Tyrion chapters during the re-read, I thought it would be useful to still include the thoughts he has on her in his chapter directly following the Purple wedding where he is imprisoned awaiting trial for Joffrey's murder.

I know that some of you have expressed a desire to discuss some of Sandor/Arya chapters where she gets a bit of a mention as well, but in the interest of keeping the thread focused on Sansa's development, I think the only chapter that might merit pulling some quotes from is the one where we hear the rumours going around about her, and Sandor learns that she was married to Tyrion.

For general discussion and analysis by the thread:

Tyrion is told by Kevan to write down the names of people he wants to call as witnesses for his defence:

Sighing, he turned back to the table, and dipped the quill again. Sansa, he wrote upon the parchment. He sat staring at the name, his teeth clenched so hard they hurt.

Assuming Joffrey had not choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow, Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he'd given her ample reason. Any doubts Tyrion might have had vanished when his wife did. One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well what did you expect dwarf?

And yet ... where would Sansa have gotten poison? He could not believe the girl had acted alone in this. Do I really want to find her? Would the judges believe that Tyrion's child bride had poisoned a king without her husband's knowledge? I wouldn't. Cersei would insist that they had done the deed together.

When Kevan returns he tells Tyrion:

"Your sister's had no difficulty finding witnesses to your guilt." Ser Kevan rolled up the parchment. "Ser Addam has men hunting for your wife. Varys has offered a hundred stags for word of her whereabouts, and a hundred dragons for the girl herself. If the girl can be found she will be found, and I shall bring her to you. I see no harm in husband and wife sharing the same cell and giving comfort to one another.

During the trial:

The High Septon began with a prayer, asking the Father Above to guide them to justice. When he had done the father below leaned forward to say, "Tyrion, did you kill King Joffrey?"

He would not waste a heartbeat. "No."

"Well that's a relief," said Oberyn Martell dryly.

"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I'd been her. Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped his cloak of protection around her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it. "The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie."

Lord Tyrell reddened. "You would blame the bakers?"

"Them or the pigeons. Just leave me out of it." Tyrion heard nervous laughter, and knew he'd made a mistake. Guard your tongue, you little fool, before it digs your grave.

---

Meryn Trant went on to relate how Tyrion had stopped Joffrey's chatisement of Sansa Stark. "The dwarf asked His Grace if he knew what had happened to Aerys Targaryen. When Ser Boros spoke up in defence of the King, the Imp threatened to have him killed."

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