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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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I think Sansa's chapter suggests she thinks of him as kind, compared to the other Lannisters, in the same way that a cold sore is better than Herpes. Neither is something you would choose though.

Oh that's a good analogy! :laugh:

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I think Sansa's chapter suggests she thinks of him as kind, compared to the other Lannisters, in the same way that a cold sore is better than Herpes. Neither is something you would choose though.

I could see them getting on later, as long as they were no longer married and Sansa disn't find out he covered up for his brother over Bran (if Tyrion had told the truth in the Eyrie both her parents might still be alive) and also is she doesn't find out he was banking on Robb's death to inherit Winterfell. Or promising sellswords large chunks of the North which belonged to her.

:rofl: The problem is that the cold sore can actually be a symptom of the herpes virus not? So really, one thing leads to the next...

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I think Sansa's chapter suggests she thinks of him as kind, compared to the other Lannisters, in the same way that a cold sore is better than Herpes. Neither is something you would choose though.

I could see them getting on later, as long as they were no longer married and Sansa disn't find out he covered up for his brother over Bran (if Tyrion had told the truth in the Eyrie both her parents might still be alive) and also is she doesn't find out he was banking on Robb's death to inherit Winterfell. Or promising sellswords large chunks of the North which belonged to her.

Eeeew, they're the same family of thanks but no thanks.

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She finally removes her dress and retrieves the clothes she has hidden in the bole of an oak and begins to put them on. She remembers Ser Dontos’s instructions that she must “Dress warmly”and dress dark”. She has no black dresses so has a brown woolen dress with pearls on it that she hides beneath a dark green cloak and has simple sturdy brown shoes.

I am now obsessed with cloaks. Where else have we seen a dark (olive) green cloak... on someone who eschewed all other ornament? Coincidence, or foreshadowing? B)

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I am now obsessed with cloaks. Where else have we seen a dark (olive) green cloak... on someone who eschewed all other ornament? Coincidence, or foreshadowing? B)

Oooooh! :o Really nice catch on that one childofsummer! Excellent! :thumbsup:

And I totally understand the obsessed with cloaks thing! :lol:

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I don't know, it depends on how they get along afterwards. It's fairly certain theirs will never be a love match and I think Sansa will never want to share his bed, but as a pure alliance for power play, it could work. Besides, this is crackpot land, but Tyrion is whoring a lot, yet unlike Robert, we never hear of his bastards. If Tyrion is unable to father children, he might even agree to being the "figurehead father" of whatever children Sansa got if it meant they could continue as a power couple on the face of it. The only thing she needs is a potential father who won't give her silver haired children with purple eyes or something. Since Sansa is mixed Stark/Tully and Tyrion a Lannister, there's already a lot of mixed up looks giving her a larger freedom than adulteress!Cersei to find someone suitable (and I think you know who I have in mind for it too!!)

The Tyrion/Sansa power marriage is one of my favourite crackpot theories actually. :lol:

Nice crackpot theory Lyanna,

Can you imagine a ménage à trois between Tyrion, Sansa and Sandor though??

Wow, that would be something… I can almost hear the mean fights that would explode between Tyrion and Sandor!

Would they have to share the same house? I hope not, because that would be an ugly sigh… though very funny to read about!!! :lol:

I’m pretty sure Sandor is at least a little jealous and Tyrion is a pride guy= Disaster ahead!!!

As for Sansa’s children with “Tyrion”(officially), their last name would be Lannister, so if Sansa is indeed the heir to Winterfell, Lannisters would end up controlling the north, not real Lannisters of course, but a name plays a big part in how others perceive you. Would the kids know who their real father is? If not, they would think of themselves as Lannisters, which would NOT be good!

Still, you have brought some hilarious images to my head Lyanna!!! :lol:

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I am now obsessed with cloaks. Where else have we seen a dark (olive) green cloak... on someone who eschewed all other ornament? Coincidence, or foreshadowing?

:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :dunce: :dunno:

OK I give up...............who is this in reference to?

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I just want to mention before I forget, in the thread on small questions there was a link to an old page from SSM. In it, GRRM is asked about Sansa remembering the wrong name for Joffrey's sword, and then goes on to talk about other misremembered things, like The Kiss. He says The Kiss will play a very important role in the future.

A little teaser you may never have seen from GRRM, although I know all of you have thought The Kiss important.

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One of the other possible foreshadowing points about the "hollow knights turning into dragons" is that it might be referring to the BWB. They are the Knights of te Hollow Hill and since the beginning they have called themselves the King's Men and of course are a powerful guerilla force in the Riverlands.

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Yes, I like that idea Rapsie! And I think it makes sense too, you might be on to something here! :)

I just want to mention before I forget, in the thread on small questions there was a link to an old page from SSM. In it, GRRM is asked about Sansa remembering the wrong name for Joffrey's sword, and then goes on to talk about other misremembered things, like The Kiss. He says The Kiss will play a very important role in the future.

A little teaser you may never have seen from GRRM, although I know all of you have thought The Kiss important.

I've heard that GRRM said The Kiss has some kind of meaning, but haven't seen that particular link, Fragile Bird, so thank you for the heads up! (And yes, I think we all agree The Kiss is important!)

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The thing about the UnKiss being important may relate to Sansa's memory rather than Sandor as she did forget the name of Joff's sword as well. However her memory may become more important in later Vale chapters.

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It is because of Sansa's memory lapse's and the fact we had no POV from her during the feast that I still feel that my Red Wolf may have had a hand in the poisoning, except the victim was to be Tyrion not Joffery, and if she did I for one would be glad as it would show she is still Stark deep inside and clinging to her vow to hate all lannisters and by that none will get Winterfell.

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Meanwhile, at the Crossroads Inn, Sandor Clegane has a nervous breakdown ;)

For general thread discussion and analysis:

If you're looking for Ser, you come too late," Polliver said. "He was at Harrenhal, but now he's not. The queen sent for him." He wore three blades on his belt, Arya saw; a longsword on his left hip, and on his right a dagger and slimmer blade, too long to be a dirk and too short to be a sword. "King Joffrey's dead, you know," he added. "Poisoned at his own wedding feast."

Arya edged farther into the room. Joffrey's dead. She could almost see him, with his blond curls and his mean smile and his fat soft lips. Joffrey's dead! She knew it ought to make her happy, but somehow she still felt empty inside. Joffrey was dead, but if Robb was dead too, what did it matter?

"So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard." The Hound gave a snort of contempt. "Who killed him?"

"The Imp, it's thought. Him and his little wife."

"What wife?"

"I forgot you've been hiding under a rock. The Northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the King with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

The Hound sat on a bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his winecup and drained it straightaway.

He's one of them, Arya thought when she saw that. She bit her lip so hard she tasted blood. He's just like they are. I should kill him when he sleeps.

They talk a bit about Harrenhal, Sandor asks if the Blackfish is still in Riverrun, and then he brings Sansa back up again:

The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire. "The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head, and flew off. "

"They'll find her," said Polliver. "If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock."

"A pretty girl, I hear," said the Tickler. "Honey sweet." He smacked his lips and smiled.

"And courteous," the Hound agreed. "A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

"They found her too," said Polliver. "The sister. She's for Bolton's bastard, I hear."

Arya sipped her wine so they could not see her mouth. She didn't understand what Polliver was talking about. Sansa has no other sister. Sandor Clegane laughed aloud.

"What's so bloody funny?" said Polliver.

The Hound never flicked an eye at Arya. "If I'd wanted you to know, I'd have told you. Are there ships to Saltpans?"

Smack talk goes down, fight ensues, Hound is injured. He gradually weakens, and finally collapses by the banks of the river. When he wakes, he sees Arya with Needle drawn, and challenges her to kill him:

His eyes opened. "You remember where the heart is?" he asked in a hoarse whisper.

As still as stone, she stood. "I ... I was only ... "

"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a while to realise he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that bloody dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy ... avenge your little Michael ... "

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You do not deserve the gift of mercy."

The hound watched her saddle. Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he attempt to rise and stop her. But when she mounted, he said, "A real wolf would finish a wounded animal."

Maybe some real wolves will find you, Arya thought. Maybe they'll smell you when the sun goes down. Then he would learn what wolves did to dogs. "You shouldn't have hit me with an axe," she said. "You should have saved my mother." She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never once looked back.

My quick thoughts:

1. Sandor really didn't give a shit about Joffrey - not that we didn't already know this, but it's confirmed here again when all he can manage is a cynical snort and a question about who did it.

2. He sure as hell is affected by the news of Sansa though. Poor man. He doesn't even seem capable of speech for a while and has to sit down and drain his glass before expressing his worse thoughts possible about what Cersei should do to Tyrion. Arya thinks he's just as bad as Tickler and co. but of course she doesn't realise the man is in the throes of emotional turmoil here. (poor git, he's in love)

3. Proceeding to get drunk and fast is the only way Sandor can cope with this shock. When he again brings back up Sansa's name it's almost involuntary. He certainly wasn't speaking to Polliver or the Tickler, even though they assume he was. And there he goes again, letting his pet name for her slip out.

4. The stories going around about Sansa are hilarious, but kinda cool :) Gosh, can we imagine what men like the Tickler and Polliver would have done if they had found Sansa travelling with the Hound instead of Arya? I'm sure Sandor was majorly creeped out by their comments of her being "honey sweet" but he covers nicely and manages to get in a zing to Arya as well. And I really do think he appreciated Sansa's courtesy.

5. Arya's reaction to Joffrey's death is very similar to Sansa's. They both know they should be glad Joffrey's dead, and they are, but there's still that empty feeling and thoughts of Robb's death as well.

6. "If I'd wanted you to know, I'd have told you." :lol: And they say Tyrion gets the best lines?

7. Ooooh boy, the "confession" speech. Crying, and hopeless, and miserable, and dying - sums it all up. This speech is generally misunderstood as Sandor admitting that he wanted to rape Sansa, or somehow showing what a vile human being he is. I don't think so. His words here are a reflection of the deep pain he feels, and the regret that he left her to such a terrible fate with the Imp. Sure, his desire for her is in there too, but it isn't defined by the brutality his words might imply. IMO, Sandor loved her, and he believes he's lost her for good. Indeed, he has to face the horror of finding out he'd lost her before he knew he had since she was given to Tyrion.

8. So what does all this have to do with Sansa anyway - Well, based on Sansa's thoughts and actions throughout ASOS and later in AFFC, we see that she hasn't forgotten him either. And whilst he's pretty clear on what did and didn't happen between them: "I took the song", Sansa is merrily going along with a memory of him kissing her. So I think it's safe to assume that Martin is highlighting that these two have some serious unfinished business between the two of them. Maybe it won't be romantic, who knows? Regardless, we know there's someone out there who's still very much haunted by his inaction when Sansa was beaten in KL, and we know the last time he saw her he promised not to let anyone hurt her again if she came with him. Oh and he hates liars and gutless frauds. Watch out Littlefinger.

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Well, this post was a very nice surprise, brashcandy!

1. Sandor really didn't give a shit about Joffrey - not that we didn't already know this, but it's confirmed here again when all he can manage is a cynical snort and a question about who did it.

Agreed. The Lannisters paid him to do a job. That was the extent of his relationship with them.

2. He sure as hell is affected by the news of Sansa though. Poor man. He doesn't even capable of speech for a while and has to sit down and drain and his glass before expressing his worse thoughts possible about what Cersei should do to Tyrion. Arya thinks he's just as bad as Tickler and co. but of course she doesn't realise the man is in the throes of emotional turmoil here. (poor git, he's in love)

The poor man, he really is hurting. If Arya only knew! :bawl:

3. Proceeding to get drunk and fast is the only way Sandor can cope with this shock. When he again brings back up Sansa's name it's almost involuntary. He certainly wasn't speaking to Polliver or the Tickler, even though they assume he was. And there he goes again, letting his pet name for her slip out.

He's going to have to dry out on the QI, I think.

"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head, and flew off. "

I do love the "shit on the Imp's head" part. :lol:

But how's he going to feel when he finds out the Mockingbird's got his little bird? :angry2:

4. The stories going around about Sansa are hilarious, but kinda cool . Gosh, can we imagine what men like the Tickler and Polliver would have done if they had found Sansa travelling with the Hound instead of Arya? I'm sure Sandor was majorly creeped out by their comments of her being "honey sweet" but he covers nicely and manages to get in a zing to Arya as well. And I really do think he appreciated Sansa's courtesy.

That zinger :fencing: to Arya was great. :P

Concerning the remarks being made about Sansa, I think Sandor was exerting an iron control over his actions at that point. :angry:

Sansa was probably the only one who tried to treat him with courtesy. Like anything but a dog.

6. "If I'd wanted you to know, I'd have told you." And they say Tyrion gets the best lines?

The man is nothing but succinct. And I love it! :D

7. Ooooh boy, the "confession" speech. Crying, and hopeless, and miserable, and dying - sums it all up. This speech is generally misunderstood as Sandor admitting that he wanted to rape Sansa, or somehow showing what a vile human being he is. I don't think so. His words here are a reflection of the deep pain he feels, and the regret that he left her to such a terrible fate with the Imp. Sure, his desire for her is in there too, but it isn't defined by the brutality his words might imply. IMO, Sandor loved her, and he believes he's lost her for good. Indeed, he has to face the horror of finding out he'd lost her before he knew he had since she was given to Tyrion.

Good Lord, that man would never intentionally harm Sansa. I do believe he loves her (of course he won't willingly admit that aloud), and it's plain as day (well, to us).

I think she was always a mirror of himself from when he was a child, because I'm willing to bet money that when he was small, before Gregor burned him, he believed in the same songs that she loved. He wanted to be that brave knight, and rescue the princess in the castle tower. Another parallel is that he left home at 12 when Gregor was knighted, Sansa lost her home when she was 12 too.

Sandors words are more a punishment against himself, (i.e. deriding himself) thinking he should have done more to make sure that she was seen safely away from King's Landing and that he failed to keep her safe. Because you know, he was supposed to be the faire maiden's knight.

That Sansa was just given to Tyrion, rubs salt in the wound for him, because he believes Tyrion's going to mistreat her and I believe he probably feels Tyrion didn't deserve her.

8. So what does all this have to do with Sansa anyway - Well, based on Sansa's thoughts and actions throughout ASOS and later in AFFC, we see that she hasn't forgotten him either. And whilst he's pretty clear on what did and didn't happen between them: "I took the song", Sansa is merrily going along with a memory of him kissing her. So I think it's safe to assume that Martin is highlighting that these two have some serious unfinished business between the two of them. Maybe it won't be romantic, who knows? Regardless, we know there's someone out there who's still very much haunted by his inaction when Sansa was beaten in KL, and we know the last time he saw her he promised not to let anyone hurt her again if she came with him. Oh and he hates liars and gutless frauds. Watch out Littlefinger.

I definitely think there's unfinished business between them too. As to what happens.....it could go a few ways for sure and of course I have my own theories.

Of course I hope for :love: , ( :blush: ) but unfortunately we'll have to wait (and wait, and wait!) and see! :D

Though I wonder what Sandor would think, if Sansa does Littlefinger in herself? Would his opinion of her change? How would he view his little bird then?

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"I forgot you've been hiding under a rock. The Northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the King with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp

A pretty story, actually!

Sansa's song for Sandor seems to have worked as a kind of spell, in some way, so Arya's reflection is quite amusing as well. One could also say that the Tyrells made her sing another kind of song in the "bear and the maiden fair" chapter.

We have allusions to Bran as a winged wolf, in this case we get one for Sansa as well. Still, I doubt she will ever be a dragonrider, but maybe she'll end up warging/skinchanging a bird of some kind (after she gets to practice with dogs first)?

The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire. "The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head, and flew off. "

"They'll find her," said Polliver. "If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock."

I wonder, may it end up taking "half the gold in Casterly Rock" to find Sansa? Maybe we are all seeing too much in this kind of lines, but if there is anything more to it than an idle observation by Polliver, then if anything it would point to Tyrion again. Cersei doesn't appear to be close to spending half the gold in Casterly Rock to find Sansa, anyway.

It's a good observation that Arya's reaction to Joffrey's death is near identical to her sister's.

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Wouter - great point about her song being a kind of spell. It definitely fits with what we've been seeing so far, in that Sansa's "innocence" and her kind heart are where her powers reside. She's able to cast a spell on people, not by covert or sorcerous means, but through her compassion and empathy.

I pondered that line on Casterly Rock too, and it could hint that Tyrion might come looking after all. But again, why would Tyrion be so desperate to find his wife if he has control over the Rock as he always wanted?

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Wouter - great point about her song being a kind of spell. It definitely fits with what we've been seeing so far, in that Sansa's "innocence" and her kind heart are where her powers reside. She's able to cast a spell on people, not by covert or sorcerous means, but through her compassion and empathy.

I pondered that line on Casterly Rock too, and it could hint that Tyrion might come looking after all. But again, why would Tyrion be so desperate to find his wife if he has control over the Rock as he always wanted?

Sansa is able to cast a spell on people - that's nicely said! I think that we can see this, in particular with Sandor and Sweetrobin, but also with people like Dontos and Oakheart.

As for the gold, I have held the idea for some time now that Sansa might end up marrying for political gain, almost as a sacrificial gesture for the north. "Half the gold in Casterly Rock" is one of the options I have considered (though marrying into a powerful family in the Vale or the Reach would work, too) for that; it would certainly come in handy to buy food and pay off the Iron Bank (which is loaning the money now to keep the wall fed, and the Stannis/Stark forces going). From Tyrion's side, he could prove he doesn't only want her for her claim. Assuming he would still want her, his ADWD chapters seem to leave that up in the air.

Of course, the implications for this are not pleasant for Sansa as that would mean she would become lady of Casterly Rock after all, which is not a good ending for Sansa (utterly hostile environment) even if it would be a major blow for most Lannisters in a subversion of their original plan to make Tyrion lord of Winterfell.

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well as of now, if i understand, cersei and jaime are heirs to casterly rock. jaime is effectively out of the picture being the kingsguard so it would fall to cersei...then to her children.

so even if her kids arent on the iron throne in the end, one of them should be heir to casterly rock i would think

tywin definitely made sure it wasn't tyrion and then tyrion ensured that with kinslaying

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