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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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Makes me hope even more that Sansa will either marry someone "unsuitable", or that she'll be a really disobedient wife like a big FU to everyone who has tried to force her in her past! :lol:

Or that if she ends up marrying, it will be because she thinks it's a good idea, and it will be someone who will accept her as an equal.

This, or she becomes the Unvirgin queen with heart, passion and a moral center.

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Just a quick response for now! Will be back with more later. :)

Gosh, if I were LF, I'd not let Sansa anywhere near my food so long as she had that hairnet! But doesn't he have her bring him wine and such? Since we're talking Ancient Greeks here, I'm looking around for a chorus chanting about hubris!

(@QOW: great Persephone analogy. :) Unlike Persephone, Sansa refuses the seeds, so does that mean she won't be trapped in the Underworld Eyrie?)

Hubris indeed! ;)

As for the Sansa/Persephone analogy, there are many variations on the myth depending on what culture you're referring to. The story is also called "The Rape of Persephone". (FYI: Greeks contribute Persephone eating the seeds to the changing of the seasons.)

Some myths state that Persephone was rescued from Hades by Hecate, (who helped Perspehone's mother, Demeter, find her.) Perhaps, shades of Brienne and UnCat? ;)

However Hecate is also said to be attended by dogs. This quote is about a statue of her:

".....it shows Hecate, with a hound beside her, placing a wreath on the head of a mare. She is commonly attended by a dog or dogs, and the most common form of offering was to leave meat at a crossroads. Sometimes dogs themselves were sacrificed to her."

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She did indeed Raksha! :

"You are well born, and the Starks of Winterfell were always proud, but Winterfell has fallen and you are really just a beggar now, so put that pride aside. Gratitude will better become you, in your present circumstances. Yes, and obedience. My son will have a grateful and obedient wife.”

Notice the part about the "obedient wife" popping up again.

That bit really, really, really made me want to slap Lysa Tully-Arryn upside the head. Hard. Totally mean thing to say to one's recently orphaned and homeless niece. I don't think Lysa was really saying it to Sansa, though; I think she was saying it to Catelyn; Sansa unwittingly serving as Catelyn's avatar for Lysa as well as LF.

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That bit really, really, really made me want to slap Lysa Tully-Arryn upside the head. Hard. Totally mean thing to say to one's recently orphaned and homeless niece. I don't think Lysa was really saying it to Sansa, though; I think she was saying it to Catelyn; Sansa unwittingly serving as Catelyn's avatar for Lysa as well as LF.

You mean push her out the moon door don't you? :)

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You mean push her out the moon door don't you? :)

I'd settle for a good hard slap upside the head and leave the murder to Littlefinger. Always keep your hands clean!

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Great analyses, Lyanna and Raksha, and QoW keep it coming with those Greek allusions :)

I wanted to comment on Lyanna's point about the whole singing as related to sexuality

in this chapter. I definitely think Martin meant it (the chapter) to mark a turning point in Sansa's development, as she's moving even further away from her innocent views in terms of game playing and her relationship with men. The scene where she's eating the pear and it's so ripe that the juice is running down her chin is highly suggestive of blossoming sexuality and Martin completes the signification later on with the erotic dream of Sandor climbing into her bed. This time, as you noted Lyanna, she's aware of the other meaning of what "singing" can entail, both based on what has taken place just previously with Lysa and Marillion, and perhaps due to her own latent attraction to Sandor. Really, he's the only one in the chapter who escapes her censure (Tyrion lies about being the knight of flowers in the dark) and her symbolic rejection (not taking the pomegranate seeds from LF). His opinion on liars is validated once again by Sansa's own recollection of the farce of Tyrion's claims that he could be like Loras Tyrell, and then later on when he is climbing into her bed it's a symbolic acceptance of him as a lover as well, even though she's still too young to quite grasp this. What I found interesting is that even though she doesn't name Sandor, she mentions the facial scars which we know she once had a problem looking at, and was a big bone of contention between the two of them. That she is able to "name" him in that sense is even more significant, because it reveals that her erotic desires are no longer based necessarily or primarily on "good" looks or traditionally gallant men. Sansa I think is beginning to understand the importance of having a connection and chemistry with a person and how that can lead one to wanting them in all different areas of one's life.

---

What's interesting to me as well is that GRRM seems to be presenting Sansa with a completely different set of models to challenge her traditional ideas of maidenhood, womanhood, and motherhood. It started back in KL via her relationship with Cersei - a woman who boldly advocated using sex or sexual promises to entrap a man. Then she had the brief interaction with Ellaria Sand, Oberyn's paramour, who has risen high in the world as a man's mistress. Then she has LF telling her that her mother gave him her maidenhood, and she is able to reconcile this in her mind because she seems to figure that love - not duty- should be paramount in an intimate relationship. This view is also underscored later on by Lysa Tully, who tells her the sordid story of her awful marriage to Jon Arryn and how she always wanted to be with LF. On arriving to the island she is met by Kella, a woman who isn't ashamed of enjoying relations with various men on the island and having bastards to tell the tale. Essentially, therefore, whilst Sansa very much still values what marriage represents - her own experience and those of others are definitely beginning to have an impact on her views. Women like Ellaria are showing that one can be happy without being married; Sansa knows all to well that one can be married without being happy; motherhood doesn't have to confined to the marriage bed as Kella proves, and a woman can long for or dream of another man in her bed whilst being married, as both Lysa, and Sansa prove in this chapter.

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@Lyanna, re: Sansa as a "disobedient" wife - me too. :) I think she's well on her way to that goal, having already run away with another man to escape her forced marriage and her husband's crazy family.

Teenagers these days!

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Great analyses, Lyanna and Raksha, and QoW keep it coming with those Greek allusions :)

Glad people are enjoying them. I will post more of them when I get home later,along with comments to everyone's posts! :)

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What I found interesting is that even though she doesn't name Sandor, she mentions the facial scars which we know she once had a problem looking at, and was a big bone of contention between the two of them.

I agree and yet disagree only on the pretense that it wasn't his physical appearance that ultimately kept them apart. She did look at him and admitted to herself that it was the rage within him that scared her, not the scars. Hence the chosen song with the BwB scene between them...she was flat out telling him right then and there that it was his rage.

Reminded me of Phantom of the Opera.....

Christine realizes she still has the Phantom's ring and goes back to return it. He asks her to overlook his scarred face and stay with him, but Christine tells him it's not the scars on his face that scare her, but the scars on his soul.

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What's interesting to me as well is that GRRM seems to be presenting Sansa with a completely different set of models to challenge her traditional ideas of maidenhood, womanhood, and motherhood. It started back in KL via her relationship with Cersei - a woman who boldly advocated using sex or sexual promises to entrap a man. Then she had the brief interaction with Ellaria Sand, Oberyn's paramour, who has risen high in the world as a man's mistress. Then she has LF telling her that her mother gave him her maidenhood, and she is able to reconcile this in her mind because she seems to figure that love - not duty- should be paramount in an intimate relationship. This view is also underscored later on by Lysa Tully, who tells her the sordid story of her awful marriage to Jon Arryn and how she always wanted to be with LF. On arriving to the island she is met by Kella, a woman who isn't ashamed of enjoying relations with various men on the island and having bastards to tell the tale. Essentially, therefore, whilst Sansa very much still values what marriage represents - her own experience and those of others are definitely beginning to have an impact on her views. Women like Ellaria are showing that one can be happy without being married; Sansa knows all to well that one can be married without being happy; motherhood doesn't have to confined to the marriage bed as Kella proves, and a woman can long for or dream of another man in her bed whilst being married, as both Lysa, and Sansa prove in this chapter.

:agree:

Sansa's character development seems to be very centred around getting her to realise what is real and what is false, where real value lies and that flair and prettiness are often just a front for something much crueller.

Regarding the female role models of various flavour, that is a very good point and something that seems to get even more apparent with Mya Stone and Myranda Royce's appearance, and to some degree with Anya Waynwood as well (who is the ruling lady of her house). Instead of stereotypical stories of gallant knights and fair maidens, Sansa gets a nice cross-section of real women and how women get by in a man's world.

Very good point as well about her accepting Cat giving her maidenhead to Littlefinger, and then hearing Lysa complain about her awful marriage to Jon Arryn. She also mentions how love takes years off Lady Lysa's face, so Sansa clearly sees love as a positive force still.

I can't imagine Sansa of AGOT being so cool with these things as the Sansa of late ASOS and early AFFC. Compared to Arya's reaction to Edric Storm's comment about Ned begetting Jon with some random woman, Sansa shows a far better understanding of that maybe things aren't always so easy to define and that there's sometimes a point in not following society's conventions.

I think this also ties in well with a lot of the other strong female characters we see in ASOIAF: Dany, Asha, Val, Melisandre, Arianne (even Cersei to a degree). They have all grasped their own destiny and also the power over their bodies and their own sex life. Hopefully Sansa's journey means she will have a similar development.

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I think this also ties in well with a lot of the other strong female characters we see in ASOIAF: Dany, Asha, Val, Melisandre, Arianne (even Cersei to a degree). They have all grasped their own destiny and also the power over their bodies and their own sex life. Hopefully Sansa's journey means she will have a similar development.

Yup. What we've seen with all the women you listed above is that refusal to let societal constraints, either to do with propriety or power, dictate their choice of partners and the pleasure they take from these relationships. Even in the case of Daenerys, who has to walk a very fine line between making the right choices for her people, and the right ones for herself, seems to realise at the end of ADWD that being happy cannot involve denying who she is or what she wants. Sansa may have to be Alayne for now, but the memories she made as Sansa are going to be incredibly hard to deny and bury.

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I agree and yet disagree only on the pretense that it wasn't his physical appearance that ultimately kept them apart. She did look at him and admitted to herself that it was the rage within him that scared her, not the scars. Hence the chosen song with the BwB scene between them...she was flat out telling him right then and there that it was his rage.

This is a very interesting point. Sansa, by choosing this song (subconsciously since she didn’t know at all what to sing at that moment, the song came by itself), is not only trying to tame Sandor’s rage, but is also sending him a message: It’s not your scars that scare me; it’s your savage attitude.

And again, this is something Sansa probably didn’t realize herself. She clearly has a very good instinct; she always finds a way to reach others without thinking about it.

Did Sandor get the message though? It’s evident that he felt like shit after the bedroom scene, but did he understand the other meaning that this song had??

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Well, my post got eaten again, but I'll try and reconstruct it. (Bad me didn't save my changes before I tried to post it). *sigh*

Really insightful posts everyone! :)

Makes me hope even more that Sansa will either marry someone "unsuitable", or that she'll be a really disobedient wife like a big FU to everyone who has tried to force her in her past!

I just hope LF gets the finger! But a nice loud FU(!) would do just as well! :lol:

Or that if she ends up marrying, it will be because she thinks it's a good idea, and it will be someone who will accept her as an equal.

This! :agree: (Isn't that what most people want, though, in 'real life' too?)

That bit really, really, really made me want to slap Lysa Tully-Arryn upside the head. Hard. Totally mean thing to say to one's recently orphaned and homeless niece. I don't think Lysa was really saying it to Sansa, though; I think she was saying it to Catelyn; Sansa unwittingly serving as Catelyn's avatar for Lysa as well as LF.

Yes, I think she was saying that to Catelyn too. But I believe The Grail King said it best: Shove her out the Moon Door!

Oh and speaking of obedient wife, remember what Lysa said here:

“Robert has weak eyes, but he loves to be read to,” Lady Lysa confided. “He likes stories about animals the best. Do you know the little song about the chicken who dressed as a fox? I sing him that all the time, he never grows tired of it. And he likes to play hopfrog and spin-the-sword and come-into-my-castle, but you must always let him win. That’s only proper, don’t you think? He is the Lord of the Eyrie, after all, you must never forget that."

:ack: More like a nursemaid!

@Lyanna, re: Sansa as a "disobedient" wife - me too. I think she's well on her way to that goal, having already run away with another man to escape her forced marriage and her husband's crazy family. Teenagers these days!

Good point, childofsummer!

I wanted to comment on Lyanna's point about the whole singing as related to sexuality in this chapter. I definitely think Martin meant it (the chapter) to mark a turning point in Sansa's development, as she's moving even further away from her innocent views in terms of game playing and her relationship with men. The scene where she's eating the pear and it's so ripe that the juice is running down her chin is highly suggestive of blossoming sexuality

Good catch on the juicy pear symbolism! :thumbsup:

And what about the wine she drank?:

The wine was very fine; an Arbor vintage, she thought. It tasted of oak and fruit and hot summer nights, the flavors blossoming in her mouth like flowers opening to the sun. She only prayed that she could keep it down. Lord Petyr was being so kind, she did not want to spoil it all by retching on him.

That's a pretty exotic/erotic description of wine! ;)

(And of course I had to mention her praying she didn't puke on LF! Sorry! :P )

...and Martin completes the signification later on with the erotic dream of Sandor climbing into her bed. This time, as you noted Lyanna, she's aware of the other meaning of what "singing" can entail, both based on what has taken place just previously with Lysa and Marillion, and perhaps due to her own latent attraction to Sandor.

Yes, I think she's now just starting to understand the whole "double entendre" in regards to singing. Is she going to start putting two and two together, and realize just what Sandor meant by wanting a song from her? :o

Really, he's the only one in the chapter who escapes her censure (Tyrion lies about being the knight of flowers in the dark) and her symbolic rejection (not taking the pomegranate seeds from LF). His opinion on liars is validated once again by Sansa's own recollection of the farce of Tyrion's claims that he could be like Loras Tyrell, and then later on when he is climbing into her bed it's a symbolic acceptance of him as a lover as well, even though she's still too young to quite grasp this. What I found interesting is that even though she doesn't name Sandor, she mentions the facial scars which we know she once had a problem looking at, and was a big bone of contention between the two of them. That she is able to "name" him in that sense is even more significant, because it reveals that her erotic desires are no longer based necessarily or primarily on "good" looks or traditionally gallant men. Sansa I think is beginning to understand the importance of having a connection and chemistry with a person and how that can lead one to wanting them in all different areas of one's life.

Great analysis! :agree:

And speaking of songs, has anyone thought it ironic that Petyr chose the mockingbird as his sigil? Mockingbirds copy/steal/mimic the songs of other birds and make them their own.

Also, when I mentioned fruit upthread and talked of the symbolism of pears, I mentioned the pear was connected with Hera, who was vengeful and jealous.

When Sansa meets Lysa in her chambers after she and Petyr are married, we have this :

Sansa stood by the foot of the bed while her aunt ate a pear and studied her.

“I see it now,” the Lady Lysa said, as she set the core aside. “You look so much like Catelyn.”

“It’s kind of you to say so.”

“It was not meant as flattery. If truth be told, you look too much like Catelyn. Something must be done. We shall darken your hair before we bring you back to the Eyrie, I think.”

So jealousy rears it's ugly head. Even after snagging Petyr (not to mention shagging Petyr), and knowing Catelyn is dead, Lysa still doesn't want the ghost of her sister (and the memories of how Petyr wanted her), lingering in her home. And it's here that we begin to see, I think, when Lysa transfers her hatred of her sister to Sansa.

As another note, in art, Hera is sometimes depicted with a pomegranate in her hand, which is supposed to be "an emblem of fertile blood and death, and a substitute for the narcotic capsule of the opium poppy".

More to come...........

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Haha! QoW - I can't believe I forgot to talk about the wine :) Yes, that was a very erotic description indeed. Her fearing that she might puke it up all over LF was lovely too. It think it might be a sign that whilst she is "blossoming," LF might be trying to make her a woman grown too quickly. It appears like LF will be the one to introduce her to these exotic pleasures, but it's going to be Sandor that she'll choose to explore and indulge them with.

Great link of Lysa with Hera and the pear. Her treatment of Sansa in this chapter was extremely distasteful honestly. And whilst I do think that she was a victim of LF's cruelty and callousness, I'm glad Sansa isn't made a victim of hers for long.

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I agree, QoW, that Lysa wanted sansa to be a nurse for her son. i pity the girl who would have eventually marry sweetrobin if lysa was still alive. though i can't figure out if i would prefer cersei over lysa as a monster-mother-in-law.

it's a little bit dangerous for sansa to start becoming a woman with a man like LF around. tyrion was also bad, but he was more trust worthy possibly. but in sansa's first lengthy conversation with LF we already have so many sexual undertones that i fear in the future LF will try to "claim" something from sansa. let's just hope sandor is around to save her.

there have been many intresting posts regarding greek goddeses/sansa, what the fruit and wines and singing/prayers mean, but hopefully sansa will make the best decision when her next big turning point moment comes along.

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I just hope LF gets the finger! But a nice loud FU(!) would do just as well!

:lol:

Good one QOW!!! :lol:

“Robert has weak eyes, but he loves to be read to,” Lady Lysa confided. “He likes stories about animals the best. Do you know the little song about the chicken who dressed as a fox? I sing him that all the time, he never grows tired of it. And he likes to play hopfrog and spin-the-sword and come-into-my-castle, but you must always let him win. That’s only proper, don’t you think? He is the Lord of the Eyrie, after all, you must never forget that.

:ack:

More like a nursemaid!

:ack: :ack: :ack:

Very nice analyst again QOW!!! :)

I really like the parallel you made between Petyr and his sigil, the mockingbird. He does lie and plays a part most of the time, as those birds do…

His rejection of the songs Sansa used to love is even funnier if you think about it, since the mockingbird sings a whole lot of songs! Those birds even steal the songs of others to make it their own, a little as what Littlefinger did to Dontos, stealing his merit in a very dishonest way and then killing him(even though I don’t think mockingbirds are that cruel and violent)…

Funny also, that mockingbirds steal songs, but that Sandor also stole a song from Sansa…

And Sansa is the little bird, Littlefinger the mockingbird, are they going to sing together?

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Haha! QoW - I can't believe I forgot to talk about the wine :) Yes, that was a very erotic description indeed. Her fearing that she might puke it up all over LF was lovely too. It think it might be a sign that whilst she is "blossoming," LF might be trying to make her a woman grown too quickly.

I loved her description of the wine, it was very rich and colorful. But you have a point there about LF trying to make her "grow up" too quickly!

It appears like LF will be the one to introduce her to these exotic pleasures, but it's going to be Sandor that she'll choose to explore and indulge them with.

One can hope so right? :rolleyes: :love:

Great link of Lysa with Hera and the pear. Her treatment of Sansa in this chapter was extremely distasteful honestly. And whilst I do think that she was a victim of LF's cruelty and callousness, I'm glad Sansa isn't made a victim of hers for long.

Agreed. Lysa acted like a cow for sure. In a way I almost feel bad for her. I think she did love Petyr, but she either she didn't want to see or couldn't see that she was one of his pawns all along.

...but hopefully sansa will make the best decision when her next big turning point moment comes along.

I hope so too, Caro99. I wouldn't want to be Sansa right now though!

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This is a very interesting point. Sansa, by choosing this song (subconsciously since she didn’t know at all what to sing at that moment, the song came by itself), is not only trying to tame Sandor’s rage, but is also sending him a message: It’s not your scars that scare me; it’s your savage attitude.

And again, this is something Sansa probably didn’t realize herself. She clearly has a very good instinct; she always finds a way to reach others without thinking about it.

Did Sandor get the message though? It’s evident that he felt like shit after the bedroom scene, but did he understand the other meaning that this song had??

You know, I think he did in his own way. Based on the fact that he was trying to seek employment with Robb and his whole guardianship of Arya, it really seems like he was trying to turn his life around and be the kind of man that would be deserving of Sansa's love. This is why I think the Tyrion marriage hits him so hard, because he was counting in his own way on getting her back for himself, and the Lannisters dashed all that. Not to mention that now she's gone missing and he has no idea where she could be.

Very nice analyst again QOW!!! :)

I really like the parallel you made between Petyr and his sigil, the mockingbird. He does lie and plays a part most of the time, as those birds do…

His rejection of the songs Sansa used to love is even funnier if you think about it, since the mockingbird sings a whole lot of songs! Those birds even steal the songs of others to make it their own, a little as what Littlefinger did to Dontos, stealing his merit in a very dishonest way and then killing him(even though I don’t think mockingbirds are that cruel and violent)…

Funny also, that mockingbirds steal songs, but that Sandor also stole a song to Sansa…

And Sansa is the little bird, Littlefinger the mockingbird, are they going to sing together?

When Sandor gives Sansa the nickname it's because he claims that she's like a pretty little talking bird from the Summer Isles, repeating all the flowery phrases her Septa taught her. So in that way, Sansa is a kind of mockingbird as well. And I don't think LF has any idea about her nickname, does he? He prefers to call her "sweetling". :ack: So anyways, what I'm hoping is that this means Sansa will be able to beat LF at his own game. He's not the only little bird in town, and better yet, she may actually be able to warg them.

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Hello, everyone :) I've been lurking around here for quite a while, but I was waiting for this chapter re-read to jump into the scene xD (still trying to figure out how to add an avatar, please excuse my blank face...)

Maybe you can help me out a little bit with the whole Tyrion/Sandor dream: the first time I read that part, I felt that it was actually a nightmare and not really an "erotic" dream, in which Sansa remembers that terrifying wedding night with Tyrion and then kindof adds the same "menacing" feeling of the Blackwater Battle by including Sandor's features in the dream... and then I came to the forums and realized that most people take that "nightmare" as an erotic dream including Sandor... I really like the Sandor/Sansa pairing (I'm a fool for "Beauty and the Beast" like stories xD), but maybe because English is not my native language I didn't quite get the whole meaning of that dream... did you ever think, at first reading, that it was all a bad dream of death and sexual threat? Is there any sign that I'm missing that gives us a hint about the nature of her dream?

I find it quite frustrating really that GRRM didn't include any kind of reaction from Sansa when she woke up.. Was she scared? Was she confused? Or maybe she was actually thinking of Sandor?? Sometimes dreams are so weird, I've had a couple of dreams in which I kiss someone who, in real life, would never kiss xD And it wasn't a sign of an unconscious attraction or anything like that, so sometimes I wonder about the real meaning of Sansa's dream. Hopefully you can bring some light into this matter =)

Also, after reading your recent posts, I noticed that in Sansa's dream, Sandor says "I'll have a song from you" while entering her bed, but in real life when Tyrion got into the bed he actually decided right there that he would not consummate the marriage, and told her so. Perhaps this means that in the future, if Sandor ever gets into Sansa's bed, he WILL have her "song" and Sansa kindof knows this/feels it? (anticipates it?)

Now, considering that this dream is widely accepted as including some sexual feelings towards Sandor, and just for the purpose of exploring possibilities and opinions concerning this... I think the whole atmosphere of the scene is quite...revealing xD Lysa's moans and screams are certainly making some of the wedding guests horny, and it's really like Sansa just had to get out to get some fresh air. Now I wonder, given the circumstances, with Lysa moaning like crazy, the knight making out with the serving girl... what if instead of Lothor Brune, Sandor had appeared? xD I really think it would be a really ackward situation, kinda like going to the movies with the guy you like and suddenly there's a sex scene in the movie and you're like "omg..." xD

Thanks for reading =)

PS: Today in my Semiotics class, we were talking about Jan Van Eyck's Arnolfini Portrait, in which a dog appears... I found the dog's symbolysm quite interesting: "The little dog symbolizes loyalty, or can be seen as an emblem of lust, signifying the couple's desire to have a child." Nice :P

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On whether or not Sandor got the song Sansa sang.. I don't think he's stupid he's just been stuck in traction for many years and no one gave a damn about him, since his family is gone also he has had no emotional ties ( guys need that stuff too) to help anchor him, if he remembers the song on the QI ( I believe it's him ) and he talks to EB I think he will find peace and solice, the negative side of that is Sansa may loose her dog.

As far as Sansa's dreams well... noway in hell am I broaching that with my daughter, and my wife tells me she never had dreams like that at 12.

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