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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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Welcome Megara! :)

You've posed some great questions, and yes, some people don't see the dream as being erotic, but rather indicative of a frightened, confused girl who's reacting to the sexual threats embodied in her relationship with both Tyrion and Sandor. Whilst I do think that this is a part of it - Sansa is still very young and has confusing feelings for Sandor- I do believe that the dream is an expression of the unspoken, only just beginning to realise desire she feels for him. We know that she experienced scary incidents with both men in her bedroom, however, she creates a memory of Sandor kissing her, which I think again, suggests an attraction to him. In the dream she has, she replaces Tyrion with Sandor, and this time her mind seems to grasp the connotations around the act of "singing" for a man.

I think the reason why Martin is so vague on her reactions to the dream, and on the dream itself is that he doesn't want there to be any easy answers, honestly :) He wants us to contemplate these very questions you're asking: was it more nightmare than fantasy, less exciting and more scary? I think all those elements are there, but we have to consider the entire chapter as a whole, not just the dream, and this is why I've always read it as being largely erotic and revealing of her desire because Martin has included all these tantalising clues in the chapter of a young girl's budding sexuality. The Hound himself is a very scary man, but Sansa has always somehow managed to get over her fear of him, and connect with him on a more heartfelt level. So I don't know if I can say that when he climbed into her bed she felt sexually threatened in the dream. We read his words, but she hears them.

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I hadn’t made the connection, but yes!! It makes total sense: I would love it if all the time Sandor was with Arya and sort of hinting at her that he had a thing for his sister and had actually been nice to her while everyone else hit her so Arya could sort of forgive him & accept him, because he was planning to join the Starks with the “reassurance” that if he did some good acts, then Sansa would accept him once the war ended or once the Lannisters let go of her. And once Arya accepted him, he would at least have one “friend” to back him up when joining the Starks. And I’m sure he knew that even if Sansa returned to her family, she might not be either allowed to marry an ex-lannister man, or love him enough to marry him. but the fact that he was willing to try and see if this could redeem himself in the little bird’s eyes is just perfect.

Welcome Megara, like your avatar, & you raised some very interesting points!

Yes the Blackwater was certainly menacing, and it is funny to have it in the same dream where the memory of her nightmare of a wedding is. But I guess that since Sansa will go on in the next book thinking about Sandor and not Tyrion, we can sort of assume she has forgiven Sandor for his attitude during the unkiss moment..? But I also think that as you said, she is at this time both scared- though in a good way ;)- and confused about her increasing interest in Sandor. Maybe this is a reason why she keeps this in sort of her subconscious mind? We can trust that possibly Mya and Randa will cure this though ;)

And I’m sure Sansa will allow sandor into her bed if the moment ever presents. Sandor could’ve ruined it all back at the blackwater by raping her or something, but he didn’t, so something sort of triggered inside both of them in a good way after it- so yes, she may not know it yet, but she is anticipating him. I’m sure that after Tyrion (with his polite conversations & treatment of her), and LF (with his intrigues, lies and politics), Sandor’s ferocity, and brutal honesty will come as a fresh air to Sansa.

& I hadn’t really thought of it but yes- I’m sure that at least some kissing would’ve happened if Sandor suddenly appeared to save her from Marmillion. It would also have been nice if Sansa had dreamed of Sandor saving her from Marmillion, replacing Lothor. But who knows? Maybe she’ll either dream or live in the future Sandor saving her from LF?

But maybe George wants Sansa to save herself without the help of a love interest to make her character arc even more ironic, but that's talk for another day.

** & agree that George wants to leave us with some homework with all the hints about San/San. He does this with almost every other character so though I hate to wait for years to find out what will happen to Sansa and Sandor, I still like the fact that George lives us with situations that the readers must try to figure out things for themselves. It makes for some compelling reading.

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You know, I forgot all about this! In retrospect, when Sansa left the Godswood with Dontos, she was spirited away on a skiff, the oarsman being Oswell Kettleblack. This reminds me of Charon, who in Greek mythology is the ferryman of Hades, carrying people over into the Underworld.

The quote:

Fifty yards downriver, a man sat in a small skiff, half-hidden by the remains of a great galley that had gone aground there and burned. Dontos limped up to him, puffing. “Oswell?” “No names,” the man said. “In the boat.” He sat hunched over his oars, an old man, tall and gangling, with long white hair and a great hooked nose, with eyes shaded by a cowl. “Get in, be quick about it,” he muttered. “We need to be away.” When both of them were safe aboard, the cowled man slid the blades into the water and put his back into the oars, rowing them out toward the channel.

And something else I thought of but I'm not sure how it ties into the story exactly. Sandor's sigil consists of three dogs, which could be a parallel to Cerberus, the three headed dog. He is said to guard the gates of the underworld.

I read somewhere that sometimes things with three heads represent the past, present and future, or that they represent the cycle of life ( birth, adulthood and dying/old age).

I'll have more Greek allusions tomorrow (if you can stand them! :lol: ), probably after I get home from work. :)

I just need to organize my thoughts a little better first. It's been a long day for me and I'm a bit too tired right now to tackle the job! :frown5:

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Thanks for the reply, Brashcandy :)

Mmmm, I agree, the whole context of the scene is highly sexual and that must be for a reason, but I think we'll just have to wait and see the development of this relationship to know the truth of this dream (if there's any development at all, LOL, Sandor might actually be dead and we would all feel like Bobba Fett's fans Dx) . I guess the scene with Myranda Royce in future chapters helps relate this dream with sexual desire, or at least, sexual interactions ( “Oh, yes. He died on top of me. In me, if truth be told. You do know what goes on in a

marriage bed, I hope?” She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod. ) But that goes for future discussion :)

I do agree 100% with this, though:

In the dream she has, she replaces Tyrion with Sandor, and this time her mind seems to grasp the connotations around the act of "singing" for a man.

Hopefully she will ponder a bit about Sandor's request in the serpentine, that whole thing about "I'll have a song from you, wether you will it or not" and Sansa's reply "I will sing it for you gladly"... oh, gods, Sansa xDD

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:whip: No rest for you, QoW, get back online! :lol:

More lovely Greek connections! But I'm hoping that the island isn't a real dark underworld, and that Sansa could actually find some happiness there.... so maybe we'll see Sandor standing watch on the island, huh? ;)

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@ Grail King

I definitely had erotic dreams at 12…Hehehe!!! :leer:

It must vary from a person to another though, I’m sure it’s linked with puberty since you get all those extra hormones from that point on… Then you start having horny dreams; girls get wet dreams too, they just don’t get the wet part!!! Although… :lol: (ok, I know! I’m gross!)

Since Sansa just had her period, it’s normal she starts her sexual awakening.

Welcome Megara!!! :)

I wasn’t too sure that Sansa’s dream was an erotic one at first either… I have to admit that I still don’t think she waked up happily, telling herself how hot this dream was. It’s kind of like an erotic nightmare because it mixes some traumatic elements she lived in the past year, but still has a horny vibe.

The bedroom scene was one of those traumatic events, but since then, we see Sansa thinking more and more about Sandor, and even making up a kiss they shared but that never happened… And then she seems to miss him and to have overall good memories of him. All of those elements make me believe that this dream had an erotic meaning; like if Sansa’s subconscious was trying to get in contact with her to reveal to her what she won’t admit just yet.

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@ Grail King

I definitely had erotic dreams at 12…Hehehe!!! :leer:

It must vary from a person to another though, I’m sure it’s linked with puberty since you get all those extra hormones from that point on… Then you start having horny dreams; girls get wet dreams too, they just don’t get the wet part!!! Although… :lol: (ok, I know! I’m gross!)

Since Sansa just had her period, so it’s normal she starts her sexual awakening.

Welcome Megara!!! :)

I wasn’t too sure that Sansa’s dream was an erotic one at first either… I have to admit that I still don’t think she waked up happily, telling herself how hot this dream was. It’s kind of like an erotic nightmare because it mixes some traumatic elements she lived in the past year, but still has a horny vibe.

The bedroom scene was one of those traumatic events, but since then, we see Sansa thinking more and more about Sandor, and even making up a kiss they shared but that never happened… And then she seems to miss him and to have overall good memories of him. All of those elements make me believe that this dream had an erotic meaning; like if Sansa’s subconscious was trying to get in contact with her to reveal to her what she won’t admit just yet.

This is why I like erotic books done by women................... :leaving:

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:whip: No rest for you, QoW, get back online! :lol:

You meanie! :P Tell that to my boss! They don't like it when I fall asleep at my desk! ;)

More lovely Greek connections! But I'm hoping that the island isn't a real dark underworld, and that Sansa could actually find some happiness there.... so maybe we'll see Sandor standing watch on the island, huh? ;)

Could be that we see Sandor on the island! (We can hope, right? :rolleyes: ) I swear this series reminds me of LOST, there are just too many hidden messages and references. It makes me crazy, but I love it! :D

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Wow Queen of Winter, do you have a Major in ancient Greek studies or something?? :lol:

Nope, no Major in Ancient Greek studies! :lol: :)

@ brash-- Are we doing another chapter again tomorrow night? Just want to be sure!

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Could be that we see Sandor on the island! (We can hope, right? :rolleyes: ) I swear this series reminds me of LOST, there are just too many hidden messages and references. It makes me crazy, but I love it! :D

Well, you know, I'm not going to say that Bryen is really really old... and will probably die in a few years... and then there'll be a gaping vacancy for captain of the guards.... and I wonder who's qualified for that position, but could benefit from solitude and isolation.... and of course the lord of sheepshit will be dead... nope, I'm not going to say any of this at all.... :leaving:

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I swear this series reminds me of LOST, there are just too many hidden messages and references. It makes me crazy, but I love it! :D

Well, at least GRRM seems to be very aware of the consequences of ending his saga like LOST did:

"“I kept watching it and I was fascinated,” he recalls. “They’d introduce these things and I thought that I knew where it was going. Then they’d introduce and I’d rethink it. Like many “Lost” fans, Martin resented the series’s mystical ending, which left dozens of narrative threads dangling. “We watched it every week trying to figure it out, and as it got deeper and deeper I kept saying, ‘They better have something good in mind for the end. This end better pay off here.’ And then I felt so cheated when we got to the conclusion.”

Martin also said that he’s terrified that he’ll “do a Lost” when it comes to the end of his own epic serialized tale, A Song Of Ice And Fire."

"By the time we reached the finale, I was still hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. I still think Lost told a terrific story ... a terrific story with a terrible ending."

LOL xD at least he knows we will be watching him D:< !!

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Well, you know, I'm not going to say that Bryen is really really old... and will probably die in a few years... and then there'll be a gaping vacancy for captain of the guards.... and I wonder who's qualified for that position, but could benefit from solitude and isolation.... and of course the lord of sheepshit will be dead... nope, I'm not going to say any of this at all.... :leaving:

:D :D :D I like your line of thinking! :thumbsup:

(You know you almost make Sandor sound like Heathcliff, roaming the moors or something. Ack! I hated that book! :ack: God, I hope that's not another analogy! :o )

Well, at least GRRM seems to be very aware of the consequences of ending his saga like LOST did:

Martin also said that he’s terrified that he’ll “do a Lost” when it comes to the end of his own epic serialized tale, A Song Of Ice And Fire."

"By the time we reached the finale, I was still hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. I still think Lost told a terrific story ... a terrific story with a terrible ending."

I'd be really P.O.'d if that happened! Like you said though, at least he's aware of the consequences...! Now we can only wait...and hope!

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Nope, no Major in Ancient Greek studies! :lol: :)

@ brash-- Are we doing another chapter again tomorrow night? Just want to be sure!

Yeah, Rapsie will probably post tomorrow night or sometime on Friday. It's the last Sansa in ASOS, then AFFC. I'm feeling nostalgic already :crying: This re-read has been so insightful.

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Yeah, Rapsie will probably post tomorrow night or sometime on Friday. It's the last Sansa in ASOS, then AFFC. I'm feeling nostalgic already :crying: This re-read has been so insightful.

I don't think we have too many chapters left then. I'm sorry I found the reread so late in it's incarnation, as it would have been fun to be there from the start. :(

You and Rapsie will need to come up with another project to keep us busy!

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@QoW: Not Heathcliff, please! Sandor is dark and surly but not anywhere close to as obnoxiously self-centered. I'm still, after all these years, trying to get over my high school English teacher shoving the idea at us that the book was some sort of deathless romance. :ack:

A thought about the mockingbird: Sansa wears LF's mockingbird, and she does sing beautifully. I don't have my copy of To Kill A Mockingbird handy, but isn't the title reference that it's a terrible crime to kill a mockingbird because they're innocent and beautiful? That sounds a lot like Sansa. Maybe the mockingbird serves a dual purpose as a symbol. On the one hand, it represents LF's duplicity and desire to be what he isn't. On the other, when worn by someone like Sansa, it represents her goodness.

Or... I could be seeing literary allusions where none exist.

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I don't think we have too many chapters left then. I'm sorry I found the reread so late in it's incarnation, as it would have been fun to be there from the start. :(

You and Rapsie will need to come up with another project to keep us busy!

Well. we've already decided that we'll keep the thread open as a general place for analysis on Sansa past, present and future plus we have all this great material from these threads, so there will be lots to discuss and explore. :)

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@QoW: Not Heathcliff, please! Sandor is dark and surly but not anywhere close to as obnoxiously self-centered. I'm still, after all these years, trying to get over my high school English teacher shoving the idea at us that the book was some sort of deathless romance.

I seriously hate that story. It's not romantic at all IMHO, it's just a horrible book. :stillsick:

Well. we've already decided that we'll keep the thread open as a general place for analysis on Sansa past, present and future plus we have all this great material from these threads, so there will be lots to discuss and explore. :)

Oh ok! That's a great idea! :)

Alright ladies, I'm truly off for the night now! I'll be back quickly in the AM and then again after work with more mythological parallels.

'Night! (err...or perhaps morning depending on where you are!) ;)

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You know, I forgot all about this! In retrospect, when Sansa left the Godswood with Dontos, she was spirited away on a skiff, the oarsman being Oswell Kettleblack. This reminds me of Charon, who in Greek mythology is the ferryman of Hades, carrying people over into the Underworld.

The quote:

Fifty yards downriver, a man sat in a small skiff, half-hidden by the remains of a great galley that had gone aground there and burned. Dontos limped up to him, puffing. “Oswell?” “No names,” the man said. “In the boat.” He sat hunched over his oars, an old man, tall and gangling, with long white hair and a great hooked nose, with eyes shaded by a cowl. “Get in, be quick about it,” he muttered. “We need to be away.” When both of them were safe aboard, the cowled man slid the blades into the water and put his back into the oars, rowing them out toward the channel.

And something else I thought of but I'm not sure how it ties into the story exactly. Sandor's sigil consists of three dogs, which could be a parallel to Cerberus, the three headed dog. He is said to guard the gates of the underworld.

I read somewhere that sometimes things with three heads represent the past, present and future, or that they represent the cycle of life ( birth, adulthood and dying/old age).

I'll have more Greek allusions tomorrow (if you can stand them! :lol: ), probably after I get home from work. :)

I just need to organize my thoughts a little better first. It's been a long day for me and I'm a bit too tired right now to tackle the job! :frown5:

Nice catch on Cerberus, another hint is Oswell in the skiff is a reference to Charon, the ferryman who brought the dead to the underworld in Greek mythology.

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As far as Sansa's dreams well... noway in hell am I broaching that with my daughter, and my wife tells me she never had dreams like that at 12.

*ahem* I did........ :blush: :D well.....i did! by 12, I was well into puberty........and all the naughty dreams that came with it!

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