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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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Nice catch on Cerberus, another hint is Oswell in the skiff is a reference to Charon, the ferryman who brought the dead to the underworld in Greek mythology.

When Sansa arrives on the island, she thinks:

I must look as haggard as a corpse, and smell of vomit.

---

Also, in terms of the role Jaime will play in all this, I'm thinking he might represent Helios - the sun god - in this particular myth:

Finally, on the tenth day, the goddess Hecate told Demeter that Persephone had been carried away, but she did not know by whom. The two goddesses went to Helius, the god of the sun, who saw everything that happened on Earth. Helius did tell her what had happened, but also tried to persuade Demeter that Hades—as Zeus's brother and ruler of one third of the universe—was not an unfit husband for Persephone.

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You know, I think he did in his own way. Based on the fact that he was trying to seek employment with Robb and his whole guardianship of Arya, it really seems like he was trying to turn his life around and be the kind of man that would be deserving of Sansa's love. This is why I think the Tyrion marriage hits him so hard, because he was counting in his own way on getting her back for himself, and the Lannisters dashed all that. Not to mention that now she's gone missing and he has no idea where she could be.

Absolutely. And the little bit of exposition he has with Arya is something that has me itching as I really wanted Arya to ask him about it, but she doesn't!

First he goes on about how he saved Sansa from the mob in Kings Landing, and then says that she sang to him. Arya claims he's lying and he then goes on to tell her the water she is seeing is not the Blackwater, but the Trident and that he's not Joffrey's dog, or the queen's (or Tyrion's, for good measure).

After that he says "It's going to be me who hands you over to that mother of yours" and then talks of the ransom, but mentions the Lannisters would pay even more, but that he won't sell her to them however because "even a dog gets tired of being kicked" and then this:

"If the Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, thought he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that."

So what bothers me here is that Sandor clearly think Robb needs him, but that Robb doesn't know it, so what does our dear Hound know that he thinks is so valuable? It's clearly something. Littlefinger's betrayal? Joffrey ordering the dagger to kill Bran? Some of Cersei's dirty laundry***? More dark Lannister secrets? I'm hoping it's LF's betrayal at the very least and that he will bring it before a Stark soon enough.

Interestingly, he also comments on Robb's and Ned's honour and how Robb won't kill him, so he clearly recognises the difference between the Lannister's ruthless realpolitik and that the Starks are more honourable and sticklers for tradition and what's proper. It's also worth noting that the dude who joined the Kingsguard since he had nothing to forsake is suddenly vying for a position as lord somewhere and for a chance to, as it seems, prove himself with the elder Stark brother. I'm sure if pressured on it, he would just say that he was fed up with the Lannisters, but the whole blathering about Sansa, how he saved her from the mob and a gruesome fate, the singing and then this comment above seem to indicate that he might have something else in mind. Re-reading the Arya ASOS chapters makes me snicker since he brings up Sansa so much it's unreal.

***figuratively, of course :stillsick:

This is a very interesting point. Sansa, by choosing this song (subconsciously since she didn’t know at all what to sing at that moment, the song came by itself), is not only trying to tame Sandor’s rage, but is also sending him a message: It’s not your scars that scare me; it’s your savage attitude.

And again, this is something Sansa probably didn’t realize herself. She clearly has a very good instinct; she always finds a way to reach others without thinking about it.

Did Sandor get the message though? It’s evident that he felt like shit after the bedroom scene, but did he understand the other meaning that this song had??

:agree:

She even tells him to his face once with the "You're awful". That's not a comment on his looks, that's a comment on his attitude. Which is why I love it when he goes all "Stop peeping at me" and tells *her* to clear off after he followed her around. Smooth! :lol:

But you know, a couple of months/years with the Zen buddhist monks Elder Brother will do him good, I am sure. Then he can come back and kick more ass than Bruce Lee.

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Perhaps this is unrelated, but with all the talk of songs earlier with Sansa singing for the Hound, her love of old songs, etc. I couldn't help but wonder if Sansa would end up with a Song in the way they've been mentioned previously in the series. The House of the Undying's vision mentioned "He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." Later Bran is told that the CotF were once known as "those that sing the song of earth". Even though I'm not sure what they're talking about, or what "A Song of Ice and Fire" really means, I wonder if such a thing could be in Sansa's future. Could the 'little bird' sing the song of air/wind? :dunno:

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I find it quite frustrating really that GRRM didn't include any kind of reaction from Sansa when she woke up.. Was she scared? Was she confused? Or maybe she was actually thinking of Sandor?? Sometimes dreams are so weird, I've had a couple of dreams in which I kiss someone who, in real life, would never kiss xD And it wasn't a sign of an unconscious attraction or anything like that, so sometimes I wonder about the real meaning of Sansa's dream. Hopefully you can bring some light into this matter =)

Welcome Megara. :)

The only reaction we do get from Sansa when she wakes is that she hugs the blind dog and says that she wishes he was Lady. A lot of people seem to think that her affinity with the old dog is both symbolic of her wish for her direwolf, but also that is symbolises Sandor (the Hound), so perhaps it's supposed to be ambiguous and a bit of both?

The reason that it's doubtful he'd show up as a nightmarish figure is that for quite a while, Sansa has put him squarely into the "protector/advisor" bracket. She even wishes he was there when she's on her way to Margaery and her ladies in waiting. She judges Tyrion with the words Sandor provided her with (Tyrion appears as a liar and a fraud) and she reflects upon that he was no true knight, but he saved her from the mob at the riot all the same, while Littlefinger did nothing. When Lothor Brune scares off Marillion, she thought it was Sandor, and is clearly disappointed when it isn't. And of course there's the famed unKiss.

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Sansa does seem to be identified with birds, doesn't she - she is the Hound's 'little bird', and she is spirited away to the Eyrie, a high place that is the seat of a house with a bird-sigil, while being taken under the wing of the self-proclaimed mockingbird.

Of course, Sansa is also daughter and sister to wolves, and has ties to her own lost wolf, Lady, along with a man called the Hound, and even the old blind dog at the Fingers.

And common gossip paints her as having turned into a flying wolf to escape the Red Keep after killing Joffrey, I think.

So will Sansa end up as the winged wolf, a little bird, a hound-mistress, She-Wolf of Winterfell, or the actual Lady of the Eyrie? Lots of different metaphors for our girl! But I doubt that GRRM saddled Sansa with a love for and reverence for old songs, plus the ability to sing, and the haunting scene where her song gentled the Hound's rage.

Could it be that Sansa taps into greater things, be it grace, power, courage, or even magic, when she sings or is inspired by songs? If so, she will inevitably have a conflict with LF, who is trying to cynic the songs out of her - "Life is not a song".

Dontos was as inspired by the ideal of Florian, and Sansa's saving his life, as he was by Littlefinger's offer of a reward - and the tale of Florian and Jonquil, hokey as at least the Hound believes it to be, is a song. Sansa was Dontos' Jonquil.

Sansa also uses the strength of her belief in the songs she loves to raise her courage when she fears the descent from the Red Keep. (thankfully, she is also quite practical, making sure that Dontos goes ahead of her, since he is drunk and she doesn't want him to fall on her!).

I just hope that Littlefinger does not succeed in blotting out Sansa's connection to the virtues and power of Song and songs.

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Haha! QoW - I can't believe I forgot to talk about the wine :) Yes, that was a very erotic description indeed. Her fearing that she might puke it up all over LF was lovely too. It think it might be a sign that whilst she is "blossoming," LF might be trying to make her a woman grown too quickly. It appears like LF will be the one to introduce her to these exotic pleasures, but it's going to be Sandor that she'll choose to explore and indulge them with.

Great link of Lysa with Hera and the pear. Her treatment of Sansa in this chapter was extremely distasteful honestly. And whilst I do think that she was a victim of LF's cruelty and callousness, I'm glad Sansa isn't made a victim of hers for long.

I do think that LF is moving very quickly with Sansa - and perhaps his speed in not only taking her into his custody but proceeding to smash (or try to) what remains of her idealism is not just motivated by the need to spirit Sansa away quickly and disguise her for her own protection. Sansa is an emotionally and physically vulnerable young girl who has endured trauma and abuse for a year or so, and survived it mainly by self-control and pure grit. She is not an adult, and she is not yet ready for sexual awakening or transition to the role of Littlefinger's most important pawn; but LF starts remaking her immediately, cutting her off from prior allegiances and alliances and inserting himself as her new father/mentor/controller. Sansa really need support and reassurance rather than wine, a father rather than a potential seducer/corrupter. I suppose we should be grateful that Littlefinger didn't climb into her bed before Lysa arrived at the Fingers :ack: !

As interesting as Sansa is finding the new world of politicking/Game of Thrones-playing, her connection to Sandor seems to me to have been much stronger and purer - perhaps because Sansa was younger and more innocent, and perhaps because they saw each other at their most vulnerable/depressed and helped each other through some bad and dangerous moments.

What I worry about is how much of Sansa will be left after a year or more as Alayne Stone, Littlefinger's 'daughter' and pupil. Will the intensity of her bond with Sandor remain, as well as her empathy and compassion for others, or will both be swept under the rug of Littlefinger's own political ambitions that Sansa, through isolation and a kind of brainwashing, will come to adapt? Whose song will Alayne Stone sing; and will Sansa survive to sing her own song, and what will that song be?

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Also, in terms of the role Jaime will play in all this, I'm thinking he might represent Helios - the sun god - in this particular myth:

Ack! You're revealing my goodies! :D Yes, I was thinking the same thing, brash. Jaime has his role to play too.

Well, I guess I might as well put this up too before I head off. Here's a bit about Hecate, who might symbolize Brienne, and Demeter who parallels Catelyn:

In the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, Hecate is called the "tender-hearted", a euphemism perhaps intended to emphasize her concern with the disappearance of Persephone, when she addressed Demeter with sweet words at a time when the goddess was distressed. She later became Persephone's minister and close companion in the Underworld.

Hecate has been depicted as a gigantic woman, holding a torch and a sword. Snakes make up her feet and hair. Thunder, shrieks, yells, and the barking of dogs is heard throughout her passage.

Remember Brienne in ACOK, trying to comfort Cat, when she was talking of how her children were lost?

And the Fingers themselves could represent the Underworld, as it (the Underworld) has said to been said to be 'misty and gloomy'.

Back with more later today...

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"If the Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, thought he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that."

So what bothers me here is that Sandor clearly think Robb needs him, but that Robb doesn't know it, so what does our dear Hound know that he thinks is so valuable?

He may not have known about the Red Wedding but its possible he knew about the Jeyne Westerling plant by Tywin? Or some of the other dirty Lannister tricks as I am sure no one pays attention to the dog in the corner. So other than the "Saltpan raids", why else would they want him dead? Seems Gregor can raid all he wants with Lannister blessings yet Sandor is a wanted man. He was being hunted down for his head even before he "died" as Polliver was wanting to take him back to Gregor.

So yea.....I am sure he was privvy to many Lannister secrets

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The reason that it's doubtful he'd show up as a nightmarish figure is that for quite a while, Sansa has put him squarely into the "protector/advisor" bracket. She even wishes he was there when she's on her way to Margaery and her ladies in waiting. She judges Tyrion with the words Sandor provided her with (Tyrion appears as a liar and a fraud) and she reflects upon that he was no true knight, but he saved her from the mob at the riot all the same, while Littlefinger did nothing. When Lothor Brune scares off Marillion, she thought it was Sandor, and is clearly disappointed when it isn't. And of course there's the famed unKiss.

Yes, and what's telling IMO is that it would have made a lot more sense for Sansa to imagine Tyrion turning into the Knight of Flowers; he's the one that Tyrion promised he could be in the dark, and he's the one that she had a waking fantasy about when she thought that she was going to marry him. The reasons why dreams are thought to be so symbolically relevant is because we can't control what is happening in them. They are products of our subconscious mind that finds the expression our waking selves cannot yet begin to understand or realise.

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Absolutely. And the little bit of exposition he has with Arya is something that has me itching as I really wanted Arya to ask him about it, but she doesn't!

First he goes on about how he saved Sansa from the mob in Kings Landing, and then says that she sang to him. Arya claims he's lying and he then goes on to tell her the water she is seeing is not the Blackwater, but the Trident and that he's not Joffrey's dog, or the queen's (or Tyrion's, for good measure).

After that he says "It's going to be me who hands you over to that mother of yours" and then talks of the ransom, but mentions the Lannisters would pay even more, but that he won't sell her to them however because "even a dog gets tired of being kicked" and then this:

"If the Young Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, thought he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that."

So what bothers me here is that Sandor clearly think Robb needs him, but that Robb doesn't know it, so what does our dear Hound know that he thinks is so valuable? It's clearly something. Littlefinger's betrayal? Joffrey ordering the dagger to kill Bran? Some of Cersei's dirty laundry***? More dark Lannister secrets? I'm hoping it's LF's betrayal at the very least and that he will bring it before a Stark soon enough.

Interestingly, he also comments on Robb's and Ned's honour and how Robb won't kill him, so he clearly recognises the difference between the Lannister's ruthless realpolitik and that the Starks are more honourable and sticklers for tradition and what's proper. It's also worth noting that the dude who joined the Kingsguard since he had nothing to forsake is suddenly vying for a position as lord somewhere and for a chance to, as it seems, prove himself with the elder Stark brother. I'm sure if pressured on it, he would just say that he was fed up with the Lannisters, but the whole blathering about Sansa, how he saved her from the mob and a gruesome fate, the singing and then this comment above seem to indicate that he might have something else in mind. Re-reading the Arya ASOS chapters makes me snicker since he brings up Sansa so much it's unreal.

Well, he does have martial prowess (not to mention a reputation), which can be beneficial to Robb.

However, the true thoughts behind his motives had nothing to do with Robb and everything to do with Sansa. I think he’s tired of being ‘kicked’ as he’s stated earlier. Sandor’s probably thinking if he gets a chance to serve the Starks, he’ll get to be around Sansa more often (oh love from afar! ;) ), and possibly have opportunities to interact with her.

Plus I’m thinking he might be feeling that he wants her to see him as someone with value, he wants to be someone in her eyes, someone "worthy". If he falls in with her family, he might have an opportunity to “prove” himself. Just like a knight in a song! (You know, the songs he professes to hate so much!) :lol:

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Well, he does have martial prowess (not to mention a reputation), which can be beneficial to Robb.

However, the true thoughts behind his motives had nothing to do with Robb and everything to do with Sansa. I think he’s tired of being ‘kicked’ as he’s stated earlier. Sandor’s probably thinking if he gets a chance to serve the Starks, he’ll get to be around Sansa more often (oh love from afar! ;) ), and possibly have opportunities to interact with her.

Plus I’m thinking he might be feeling that he wants her to see him as someone with value, he wants to be someone in her eyes, someone "worthy". If he falls in with her family, he might have an opportunity to “prove” himself. Just like a knight in a song! (You know, the songs he professes to hate so much!) :lol:

Good points. :)

It could also be with his commentary on Robb "being his father's son", i.e. more honourable, that some part of Sandor Clegane was hoping for a more worthwhile occupation? Sansa certainly has a lot to do with it, but it's also about a general change in his character: he says himself he's fed up with being "kicked" and even though his subconscious was telling him to go be all knightly for the girl, the more immediate concern is what the Elder Brother pointed out: that he served but found no pride in service. I think encountering Sansa and the experiences in KL, leaving KL and then hiking around with Arya really made him want something else to do in his life, something worthwhile.

That's why I really, really hope he ends up on the Stark side of things, as we have seen a lot of Stark loyalists really believe there is honour and value in what the Starks and the North stand for.

In many ways, you have a couple of characters in the same position of looking for that purpose, or identity: Sansa, Sandor, Arya, Tyrion. All of them have lost whatever original purpose or belonging they originally had. (I do think Tyrion will have to become Team Dany tho, since it's doubtful the Starks will want him on Team North :lol: )

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Man! I was so hopping for Sandor to work for Robb!!!! :bawl:

That would surely have been interesting… Remember the scene in the beginning of GOT where Robb is going to sword fight with Joffrey, but ser Rodrick won’t let them have real swords? And then Sandor comes and starts insulting Rodrick and Robb? What a dick! :lol:

I’m sure Robb would not have been too happy to see Sandor at first, but then, he would have known he could be a very useful ally.

Sandor knows everything about the Red Keep and could have been the leader of a commando-like mission to free Sansa from it… :ninja:

Edited for attention mistake...

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Man! I was so hopping for Sandor to work for Robb!!!! :bawl:

That would surely have been interesting… Remember the scene in the beginning of GOT where Robb is going to sword fight with Joffrey, but ser Rodrick won’t let them have real swords? And then Sandor comes and starts insulting Rodrick and Robb? What a dick! :lol:

Yup, but then Joffrey brings it up later when Sansa is around, and Sandor just goes "Nope, can't recall ever saying anything like that". ROFL. NO LIES EH?? :P I always felt he did that to a. not look like a complete dick around Sansa b. deny Joffrey the glee of ganging up on Sansa.

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Just like a knight in a song! (You know, the songs he professes to hate so much!) :lol:

true true the biggest irony in the series the most chivalirous knights are the ones not appearing to be

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he lied about the name day curse..........for her

He lies for Sansa three times. The first with Joffrey when he covers for his own past dickitude ( :lol:), then again with the name day as the second, and the third is when he catches her after she's been meeting with Dontos in the Godswood, and lies to (I think it is) Boros Blount who's on guard duty. He claims it's too noisy for Sansa to sleep or something, even though she doesn't even tell him where she's been.

true true the biggest irony in the series the most chivalirous knights are the ones not appearing to be

Yes, I was reading some of Jon's chapters the other day and there are people in those chapters being extremely self sacrificing, despite not having any titles and definitely aren't any knights. It really goes to show, name and title mean very little when it comes to actual worth or how bravely and honourably people will act. Sansa I think is working along similar thought processes as she's been properly disillusioned with court life.

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Just to let you know the next chapter will be up tomorrow. Very busy at the mo. Haven't even had a chance to find time to comment on this chapter yet!!

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He lies for Sansa three times. The first with Joffrey when he covers for his own past dickitude ( :lol:), then again with the name day as the second, and the third is when he catches her after she's been meeting with Dontos in the Godswood, and lies to (I think it is) Boros Blount who's on guard duty. He claims it's too noisy for Sansa to sleep or something, even though she doesn't even tell him where she's been.

Yes, I was reading some of Jon's chapters the other day and there are people in those chapters being extremely self sacrificing, despite not having any titles and definitely aren't any knights. It really goes to show, name and title mean very little when it comes to actual worth or how bravely and honourably people will act. Sansa I think is working along similar thought processes as she's been properly disillusioned with court life.

Sandor does come across as Sansa's knight, however reluctant he would be to be associated with that rank - especially when he swoops in during the riot in King's Landing and saves her life than carries her to safety on his horse, the imagery is perfect; but also all those times he covers for her and the advice he gives her about giving Joffrey what he wants (which does help Sansa survive).

What I find interesting is that three of the men who help Sansa and are, to various extents, charmed by her, are knightly figures, men who were at one time at least part of the chivalric order and were disillusioned by that order:

1. Sandor's early story is straight out of a knightly tale: his grandfather, a man of humble origins and occupation, saved his lord's life and was rewarded with rank and nobility. The young Sandor would have had a destiny of service to House Lannister and a probable knighthood if he served them well; and we know that as a child, he cherished the ideal and mythos of knighthood enough to want to covet his older brother's carved wooden knight toy. And then the story went horribly wrong - the older brother, who should have protected and taught little Sandor, subjected him to life-threatening cruelty and pain, marring him for life. Gregor was protected rather than punished, the truth denied and covered up; and the family that we could assume had nurtured little Sandor until then eventually disintegrated - the father and sister's mysterious deaths, Sandor leaving home when his brother inherited it. Sandor grew up refusing to be a knight but serving his liege-lords nonetheless, and performing various acts, such as saving Ser Loras from Gregor and later helping and saving Sansa, that were knightly. I think that on some level, Sandor yearns for the world to be as AGOT-Sansa saw it, with truly noble knights doing worthwhile deeds instead of killing children and brutalizing women, but he believed that the truth, and his own life, was bloody and vicious and irredeemable. But the Sandor of ASOS seems to yearn for some kind of forgiveness and mercy and flirts with repentance - and it seems obvious that he is now in a place where the repentant can expect mercy and spiritual solace.

2. Ser Dontos - was the child of a noble family, destined for a relatively good life and probably for knighthood. His family was wiped out due to the treachery of a few; and his own young life only spared because of a man who epitomizes the positive side of knighthood - Ser Barristan Selmy - interceded with the king who Dontos' family had betrayed, and saved the boy. Dontos grew up to become a knight and an alcoholic. He turns on Sansa with the rest of the court at the end of AGOT, not returning her greeting when she has become an outcast. In ACOK, Dontos is a parody of a knight, coming late to the tournament drunk, with no pants. And the king, who is the apex of the chivalric order of the world, turns on him and condemns him to death; but Dontos is saved by the intercession of Sansa and another broken knight-figure, Sandor. It is only when Ser Dontos becomes Dontos the Fool that he begins to act like a true knight, participating in a plan to save a captive, abused maiden, resolving to be Florian to her Jonquil. Despite his slobbery kisses, Dontos does not come across as a sexual threat to Sansa, perhaps because he doesn't grope her and often calls her 'child'; and, if I remember correctly, he kisses her on the cheek or brow. He does anticipate a nice reward from Littlefinger for getting his Jonquil out of King's Landing, but Dontos also sees his helping Sansa as a means of proving himself a true knight - which is why he wears the colors of his house, knightly garb, when he has been forbidden to dress as a knight, when he guides Sansa out of the Red Keep and to the boat, and the man, who will ferry her away from King's Landing. It can be said that Ser Dontos dies for the ideal of knighthood; the job of being Sansa's secret helper was quite a dangerous one and he does not seem to have taken it on just for the prospect of more coin to spend on booze - he wanted to help this damsel in distress; and it was Dontos who proclaimed himself to be her 'Florian'.

3. Petyr Baelish's early life also comes out of a knightly tale - his father was a wartime comrade to the heir of a great house, Hoster Tully, I believed the elder Baelish saved Hoster's life. In gratitude, Hoster took the child Petyr into his own household as a foster-son - a great honor for the child of such a low-ranked family. Young Petyr would have had every reason to aspire to a life that included knighthood and a strong personal connection to the heirs of this great house, indeed, Hoster's oldest child looked on the boy as a younger brother. But Petyr's own imagination, probably inspired by old songs and romantic tales, led him on a course that was simultaneously pathetic, impertinent, and bold - he believed himself in love with Hoster's firstborn, Catelyn, and challenged her betrothed - a young man who was not only another great-house heir but a physically formidable warrior - to a trial by combat for her hand. When he lost, he either knowingly consoled himself or was seduced/raped (the line between those actions is rather blurry in Petyr's case) by Hoster's daughter and persuaded himself that it was Catelyn, not Lysa, who had come to his bed. Then his foster-father and patron, Lord Tully, kicked him out of Riverrun, sending Petyr back to his dismal childhood home as soon as he was well enough to travel, out of rage that Petyr had impregnated Lysa. Any dream that Petyr would have had of advancing himself and gaining the hand of the highborn maiden he wanted through knightly prowess and deeds was shattered; and he turned to less traditional means at which he excelled - mastery of coin, as well as mastery and manipulation of people. Petyr transformed himself from a lowborn, physically small, credulous boy to a sophisticated financial wizard and eventually a high lord and the consort of Lord Tully's daughter - but not the one he desired. His youthful idealism turned to cynicism and condemnation of chivalric ideals and traditions. But part of Petyr still cherishes the delusion that he loves and was loved by the maiden of his dreams - Catelyn; and that delusion did not pass away with his youth. His speech to Sansa about having imagined, when he was Catelyn's young foster-brother, the children that he and Catelyn would have together, does not seem to me to be a lie; I think it was a memory that Petyr unearthed and is trying to make come true with Sansa. I don't think that the young Catelyn necessarily took part in young Petyr's speculation on the number and names of their future children; Petyr has shown himself capable of extreme delusion where Catelyn's affection for him is concerned...But Petyr did, as a boy, benefit from the chivalric/knightly code, it brought him to one of the greatest houses in Westeros as a privileged fosterling; and drove him to challenge a physically stronger man for the hand of the 'maiden fair' that he wanted. He even speaks of Catelyn to her daughter as his "Queen of Love and Beauty" - the title that a tournament's winner can confer on the lady of his choice - and we know that Petyr never won a tournament.

Three broken 'knights' have used Sansa as the symbol of their hopes for redemption and achievement of dreams. I don't think it's a coincidence, or a sign of the power of the chivalry mythos in Westeros; because the other Stark children seem to have chivalry-free arcs. Sansa is something of a chivalry-magnet, who has strongly believed in the knightly code, brought out chivalrous behavior in some while exposing the truth behind the myth in the behavior of others towards her - such as the willingness of some of the Kingsguard to beat her without compunction. Will Sansa eventually spurn the chivalric ideals of her youth, as Littlefinger has done, or keep them close to her heart and try to use them as best she can to warm and inspire people who need hope?

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It's kind of cute how Sandor is trying to turn his life around but don't seems to know how to act nicely. :lol:

He knows he should find himself a more respectable liege lord, because working for an honorable lord is the first step in being honorable yourself. Robb Stark is the perfect choice; he has those qualities and, oh yeah, he's also Sansa's brother :leer: (a detail)...

It one huge a coincidence that Sandor ran into Arya; he had some bad luck (like being captured by the BWB), but it turned around for him at that moment, that's probably what he thought when he found the little sister.

You know, after the BWB took his gold, he kept turning around them, even after he learned they didn't have it anymore. He probably made his mind already that he wanted to kidnap Arya to bring her to her family.

What is funny is that, even though the intentions are good, the way he does it is so wrong!!! I know he would have never been able to convince Arya to go with him, but still, it's wrong!

And then he doesn't talk much to her and calls a 10 years old a bitch! He tells her to shut up when she says her one sentence of the day!!!Hahahahaha!!! :lmao: (that really made me laugh when it happened)

He truly doesn't come across as someone who is trying to be nice, but he is, really... It seems like he don't know how to do it.

Well, as we say, it's the intentions that count... :dunno:

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What I worry about is how much of Sansa will be left after a year or more as Alayne Stone, Littlefinger's 'daughter' and pupil. Will the intensity of her bond with Sandor remain, as well as her empathy and compassion for others, or will both be swept under the rug of Littlefinger's own political ambitions that Sansa, through isolation and a kind of brainwashing, will come to adapt? Whose song will Alayne Stone sing; and will Sansa survive to sing her own song, and what will that song be?

i've also wondered about this, and i guess that (though i highly doubt this will come to pass) if for some reason Sansa is never rescued from LF's clutches and is forced to live near him for years and years, maybe she would end up becoming cyinical and lose her compassion since some corruption is bound to take place then in her character.

but i'm pretty sure this won't be the case, so for what we see in AFFC, Sansa does seem to try and remind herself she is a Stark, not a stone. & she does not seem to like some of LF's plans a lot of times. she even reminds him that she is not his daughter- that Ned was her father so hopefully she won't forget her true self.

Hopefully Sandor will come along to free her from LF, and Sansa can use her emphaty & compassion to save him herself once more..?

-by the way, sort of random, but there was some talk earlier about LF's relationship to songs since his sigil is a mockingbird. i was reminded of this when i was watching the first episode of the new season when Cersei confronts LF and says something like: A self made man with so many songs to sing... just after she is talking about how he created his own sigil.

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