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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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@ Raksha tha Demon

Nice post! :)

Even though I agree with you that Sansa has brought out the good and Knighly side of Dontos and Sandor, I don't think the same can be said of Petyr.

Where Sandor helped Sansa for no other reasons then because he loved her :wub:, and cared for her, and Dontos really wanted to make it up for all the drunkennes of his life(ok, he took money, but still), Petyr is clearly using Sansa as his pawn, a pawn that has also the bonus of looking like Cat.

My opinion is that, for Littlefinger, it's the opposite then with the two others: Sansa brings the worst in him.

He does some terrible thing because of her, like killing his wife, isolating a young girl to try to keep her for himself only, against her will...

Wow, what a creeper.... :ack:

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It may seem odd, but I do think that Sansa is bringing out the best in Littlefinger... It's just that his "best" involves controlling and stifling behaviour with a side of perving. I think he genuinely wants to teach her the game, and he's excited to have someone that he can shape into his image, and be a Cat-substitute all at once. The latter is really what is disturbing, because as Raksha noted, he's finding it very hard to separate this girl from her mother, or to realise that Sansa might envision a very different future for herself. A man like the Hound might desire and want to be with her, but he's also able to distance himself from her, and allow her that freedom to choose otherwise. I don't think LF is capable of this, and it's a critical difference between the two of them. Not to mention that Sandor relies on the truth, however ugly, whereas LF is all about lies and manipulations.

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It may seem odd, but I do think that Sansa is bringing out the best in Littlefinger... It's just that his "best" involves controlling and stifling behaviour with a side of perving. I think he genuinely wants to teach her the game, and he's excited to have someone that he can shape into his image, and be a Cat-substitute all at once. The latter is really what is disturbing, because as Raksha noted, he's finding it very hard to separate this girl from her mother, or to realise that Sansa might envision a very different future for herself. A man like the Hound might desire and want to be with her, but he's also able to distance himself from her, and allow her that freedom to choose otherwise. I don't think LF is capable of this, and it's a critical difference between the two of them. Not to mention that Sandor relies on the truth, however ugly, whereas LF is all about lies and manipulations.

Ok.

Sansa does bring some good things in Littlefinger. For instance, he tries to teach her a few things about the game of thrones, he also tries to be a father figure for her (a very creepy and disturbing one though)...

BUT to do those nice things, he kills Lisa and Dontos...

If that's his good side, the bad one must be something scary then! :eek:

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You always write such terrific posts, Lyanna! :thumbsup: It shows me I really shouldn't post when I'm in a rush! :blush:

It could also be with his commentary on Robb "being his father's son", i.e. more honourable, that some part of Sandor Clegane was hoping for a more worthwhile occupation? Sansa certainly has a lot to do with it, but it's also about a general change in his character: he says himself he's fed up with being "kicked" and even though his subconscious was telling him to go be all knightly for the girl, the more immediate concern is what the Elder Brother pointed out: that he served but found no pride in service. I think encountering Sansa and the experiences in KL, leaving KL and then hiking around with Arya really made him want something else to do in his life, something worthwhile.

Oh absolutely! I agree with him trying to "turn over a new leaf". I think the rational side of him is saying he's obviously done with the Lannister's, and he did need to find a new "employer". He wasn't too thrilled with working for the Lannisters, so yes, I could see where he might hope to be taken in by Robb, elevating himself from his current status as a "dog" (who's tired of being kicked)

And yes, like you stated, the thing with Sansa probably factors in on a more subconscious level.

Sandor developed a bond with both Sansa and Arya, obviously in different ways. (But look how he wound up protecting them both.) Even though he feels he failed Sansa (though at that particular point in the story, he didn't know she was given to Tyrion), I'd say that those relationships helped show him that there might still be a place in the world for him, a chance for him to be something better than a "sellsword".

He might fit in rather well with the Starks and their lot, actually. (I digress here, but I always liked the line he gave Arya, after he gave the gift of mercy to that man from House Piper, "Leave him for the wolves and wild dogs. Your brothers and mine.”) B)

In many ways, you have a couple of characters in the same position of looking for that purpose, or identity: Sansa, Sandor, Arya, Tyrion. All of them have lost whatever original purpose or belonging they originally had. (I do think Tyrion will have to become Team Dany tho, since it's doubtful the Starks will want him on Team North )

Yeah, I really don't see Team Stark wanting Tyrion on their side! He's going to be part of Team Dany.

by the way, sort of random, but there was some talk earlier about LF's relationship to songs since his sigil is a mockingbird. i was reminded of this when i was watching the first episode of the new season when Cersei confronts LF and says something like: A self made man with so many songs to sing... just after she is talking about how he created his own sigil.

Yes, I don't think that scene was in the books though. :read:

Then he lost, he either knowingly consoled himself or was seduced/raped (the line between those actions is rather blurry in Petyr's case) by Hoster's daughter and persuaded himself that it was Catelyn, not Lysa, who had come to his bed.

It's in the next chapter. I think Petyr was drunk, and that's when he slept with Lysa. Sometimes I wonder if he really knew it was her, or if in his drunken state think it was really Cat (hence him stating he took Cat's maidenhead. Didn't Lysa become pregnant though?) :wacko:

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Ok.

Sansa does bring some good things in Littlefinger. For instance, he tries to teach her a few things about the game of thrones, he also tries to be a father figure for her (a very creepy and disturbing one though)...

BUT to do those nice things, he kills Lisa and Dontos...

If that's his good side, the bad one must be something scary then! :eek:

Well, LF's good side is very bad :) The killing of Lysa and Dontos was about LF playing the game, making sure that nothing derailed his plans. Anyways, there'll be lots more to talk about when Rapsie posts tomorrow!

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It may seem odd, but I do think that Sansa is bringing out the best in Littlefinger... It's just that his "best" involves controlling and stifling behaviour with a side of perving. I think he genuinely wants to teach her the game, and he's excited to have someone that he can shape into his image, and be a Cat-substitute all at once. The latter is really what is disturbing, because as Raksha noted, he's finding it very hard to separate this girl from her mother, or to realise that Sansa might envision a very different future for herself. A man like the Hound might desire and want to be with her, but he's also able to distance himself from her, and allow her that freedom to choose otherwise. I don't think LF is capable of this, and it's a critical difference between the two of them. Not to mention that Sandor relies on the truth, however ugly, whereas LF is all about lies and manipulations.

The problem with Littlefinger is that even the best of him is twisted. I am not sure he is capable of altruism; though he is capable of self-deceit as well as the deceit of others. He probably thinks that he is helping Sansa, doing what is best for her, and he is right only in so far as taking her away from the Lannisters and Joffrey was necessary for her protection. But, and it is a big But, Littlefinger has also endangered Sansa by implicating her in the murder of a king; and he is not just fostering Sansa as her grandfather fostered him while teaching her the Game of Thrones, as we will soon see.

The Hound is ruthlessly honest with both Sansa and himself. The few times he has lied have been mostly to protect Sansa.

While Littlefinger has helped Sansa by taking her away from a dangerous environment, he has also placed her in danger by making her an unwitting accomplice to Joffrey's murder; and, in bringing her to the attention of the unstable and jealous Lysa, placed her in further jeopardy.

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It's just that his "best" involves controlling and stifling behaviour with a side of perving. I think he genuinely wants to teach her the game, and he's excited to have someone that he can shape into his image, and be a Cat-substitute all at once. The latter is really what is disturbing, because as Raksha noted, he's finding it very hard to separate this girl from her mother, or to realise that Sansa might envision a very different future for herself. A man like the Hound might desire and want to be with her, but he's also able to distance himself from her, and allow her that freedom to choose otherwise. I don't think LF is capable of this, and it's a critical difference between the two of them. Not to mention that Sandor relies on the truth, however ugly, whereas LF is all about lies and manipulations.

That's what really worries me, his inability to seperate Catelyn from Sansa. It makes the Vale a very dangerous place for Sansa, and it makes me afraid for her.

Brashcandy, mentioned Bran's dreams, and how in one of them he sees this:

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Now, because those dreams are so wonky, it's hard to tell just when some of those things might come to pass (or if they have already). I don't know if the whole 'crying herself to sleep' bit is something that happened (like after her father was beheaded or not). Sometimes I think that it hasn't happened yet. :worried:

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He might fit in rather well with the Starks and their lot, actually. (I digress here, but I always liked the line he gave Arya, after he gave the gift of mercy to that man from House Piper, "Leave him for the wolves and wild dogs. Your brothers and mine.”) B)

Just a small contribution here, this is Sandor talking to Arya, after she tells him that they're heading for King's Landing:

"I’m done with their city, done with their Kingsguard, done with Lannisters. What’s a dog to do with lions, I ask you?"

Maybe Sandor thought that he could actually fit into the Stark way of living... you know how northenders are, they're supposed to be tough and honorable and be a bunch of badasses who live happily in the terrible cold weather of North Westeros... I think Sandor could see himself living that kind of life, maybe he even thought it would be nice for a change, away from King's Landing and all its treachery (though I think Rory McCann would actually be happier, the man is a wild mountain beast xD).

With the new book titled "The Winds of Winter", and Ned's words "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives", I think it's time for the remaining Stark children and friends to unite, and maybe they could include a loyal hound in the pack :3

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What I find interesting is that three of the men who help Sansa and are, to various extents, charmed by her, are knightly figures, men who were at one time at least part of the chivalric order and were disillusioned by that order:

1. Sandor

2. Ser Dontos

3. Petyr Baelish

Three broken 'knights' have used Sansa as the symbol of their hopes for redemption and achievement of dreams. I don't think it's a coincidence, or a sign of the power of the chivalry mythos in Westeros; because the other Stark children seem to have chivalry-free arcs. Sansa is something of a chivalry-magnet, who has strongly believed in the knightly code, brought out chivalrous behavior in some while exposing the truth behind the myth in the behavior of others towards her - such as the willingness of some of the Kingsguard to beat her without compunction. Will Sansa eventually spurn the chivalric ideals of her youth, as Littlefinger has done, or keep them close to her heart and try to use them as best she can to warm and inspire people who need hope?

:agree: with everything you said. and i like how the knight thing works both ways with sansa. sandor saves her a lot of times, but she also saves him in a spiritual way by the end of ACOK. dontos saves her by getting her out of KL, yet she also saves him not only in joff's nameday tourney, but also by giving him hope that he can one day be a knight again. & LF saves her from the Lannister's, and in a weird way i guess sansa also saves him cause she represents a goal he wants to get to, so it keeps him going... even brienne could be linked here, i think.

so sansa is in a way a knight herself by managing to help out all these men! I was also reminded of margaery and i think that sansa sort of behaved like the Hound with her. Sandor tried to tell Sansa what a bad guy Joff was the night of the Hand's Tourney, when sansa was enchanted with the way joff behaved with her. well, when joff is being charming with margaery by the third book, sansa is thinking along the lines sandor once did when she says that the girl doesn't really know joff. he is just acting but in reality he is a monster... and then we have her actually trying to tell margaery that joff is horrible when she goes out riding with her- the same way sandor once advised her to be carefuly around joff.

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That's what really worries me, his inability to seperate Catelyn from Sansa. It makes the Vale a very dangerous place for Sansa, and it makes me afraid for her.

Brashcandy, mentioned Bran's dreams, and how in one of them he sees this:

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Now, because those dreams are so wonky, it's hard to tell just when some of those things might come to pass (or if they have already). I don't know if the whole 'crying herself to sleep' bit is something that happened (like after her father was beheaded or not). Sometimes I think that it hasn't happened yet. :worried:

I think this is her reaction to LF plans (and the point where she uses this knowledge against him)

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With the new book titled "The Winds of Winter", and Ned's words "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives", I think it's time for the remaining Stark children and friends to unite, and maybe they could include a loyal hound in the pack

Yes, it could be. If Sandor's going to do something to help find Sansa (or anything at all really), his story needs to "get going" in the next book and in a big way. It's going to have to show him either getting information about what's going on in Westeros, or some kind of information about her specifically, and having him leave the QI.

I want to mention Persephone again for a moment. It's said that because of her, there are seasons. During the time she spends in the Underworld, the Earth is barren and dark. Winter if you will. (And it's now becoming winter in the story).

When Persephone leaves to spend part of the year "above ground" with her mother, Demeter, the Earth blossoms, things grow, etc. Hence heralding Spring.

I'm thinking at some point Sansa will be found (or 'rescued',etc), but it won't be until after the Winter has passed. I think she will meet up with UnCat, and her mother seeing that at least one of her daughters is alive will rejoice. If by that time, UnCat finds out about the rest of her children being alive (assuming they are at that point in the books), I feel she'll be at peace and somehow "pass on".

The next book is "The Winds of Winter", and the final is said to be "A Dream of Spring". By the last book that was published, ADWD, how much time has passed since the story first started? A year or something right? :huh:

Also in the Persephone mythos, the opening/entrance to The Underworld sometimes appears as a "hole in the ground".

I'm thinking about that cave that's on the Fingers, the one where Petyr said an old hermit lived, who told him his fortune when he was a boy. (I wonder if the cave leads anywhere?). Perhaps that cave will play a role in the coming story in some way.

Oh and there was this too; "Persephone held an ancient role as the dread queen of the Underworld, within which tradition it was forbidden to speak her name."

Maybe this parallels Sansa not being able to tell people who she really is, and having to take a bastard's name? After all people call her Alayne, and not Sansa. Petyr stated no one must know who she was.

What’s a dog to do with lions, I ask you?"

I want to see what wolves do to dogs! ;) :rolleyes:

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Speaking of Alayne, I can't believe I missed this one!

Alayne is a variation of Elaine, anyone know their Arthurian Literature? (Elaine of Astolat) :)

" While Lancelot is in her family's household, Elaine becomes enamoured of him and begs him to wear her token at the coming tournament. Explaining that Guinevere would be at the tournament, he consents to wear the token but says that he will have to fight in disguise so as not to be recognised. He then asks Bernard if he can leave his recognizable shield with him and borrow another. Bernard agrees and lends him the plain-white shield of Torre, Elaine's brother.

Lancelot goes on to win the jousting tournament, still in disguise, fighting against King Arthur's party and beating forty of them in the tournament. He does, however, receive an injury to his side from Bors' lance, and is carried off the field to the hermit Sir Baudwin's cave (Baudwin being a former knight of the Round Table himself). Elaine then urges her father to let her bring the wounded Lancelot to her chambers, where she nurses him. When Lancelot is well, he makes ready to leave, and offers to pay Elaine for her services; insulted, Elaine brings him his shield, which she had been guarding, and a wary Lancelot leaves the castle, never to return but now aware of her feelings for him.

Ten days later, Elaine dies of heartbreak. Per her instructions, her body is placed in a small boat, clutching a lily in one hand, and her final letter in the other. She then floats down the Thames to Camelot, where she is discovered by King Arthur's court. Lancelot is summoned and hears the contents of the letter, after which he explains what had happened. Lancelot proceeds to pay for a rich funeral and Elaine's mass-penny, which was requested by her.

The bit with the joust and that recuperating in the hermit cave definitely intrigues me! Wonder if we'll see something like that? :D

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@QoW

I've been wondering about that cave too, and where it could lead. It does give off a kind of underworldish vibe, doesn't it?

Also, during this same walk around the island, LF shows Sansa a boulder where someone has chiseled the seven pointed star of the new gods.

Petyr said that marked one of the places the Andals had landed, when they came across the sea to wrest the Vale from the First men.

Might this be foreshadowing of another attack on the Vale? We know that Tyrion (and perhaps Daenerys) is on his way back to Westeros. And Sansa is a descendant of the first men.

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I want to mention Persephone again for a moment. It's said that because of her, there are seasons. During the time she spends in the Underworld, the Earth is barren and dark. Winter if you will. (And it's now becoming winter in the story).

When Persephone leaves to spend part of the year "above ground" with her mother, Demeter, the Earth blossoms, things grow, etc. Hence heralding Spring.

I'm thinking at some point Sansa will be found (or 'rescued',etc), but it won't be under after the Winter has passed.

Sigh... that would mean yet another book with no Sansa/Sandor interaction :(

It will be really interesting to see what happens with all these characters once The Others attack and invade Westeros, or something like that ... I think southerners will have a real hard time trying to cope with that new, frightening reality :S (oh, please, 2025, come faster... I really want to read TWOW...)

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When Lancelot is well, he makes ready to leave, and offers to pay Elaine for her services; insulted, Elaine brings him his shield, which she had been guarding, and a wary Lancelot leaves the castle, never to return but now aware of her feelings for him.

Thas sentence really brought Sandor's KG cloak to my mind... O___o

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@ Megara-- Well, we don't know for sure right? And I don't know if we should take the word "Spring" literally or metaphorically. :mellow:

Depending on how long the next book is, they might cross paths by the end of it (*the end of the book, not the end of "spring"). We just have to wait and see!

*Edited for a bit of clarity

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@QoW

I've been wondering about that cave too, and where it could lead. It does give off a kind of underworldish vibe, doesn't it?

It's got to mean something! :D

Also, during this same walk around the island, LF shows Sansa a boulder where someone has chiseled the seven pointed star of the new gods.

Yes, I remember that as it stuck out in my mind. Curiouser and curiouser...(Oooh! That's Alice in Wonderland...who falls down a hole in the ground! ;) )

Might this be foreshadowing of another attack on the Vale? We know that Tyrion (and perhaps Daenerys) is on his way back to Westeros. And Sansa is a descendant of the first men.

That one I'm not sure of. The Vale is supposed to be impregnable, but if it's Dany, maybe.

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@ Megara-- Well, we don't know for sure right? And I don't know if we should take the word "Spring" literally or metaphorically. :mellow:

Depending on how long the next book is, they might cross paths by the end of it. We just have to wait and see!

Well it does kinda fit, although I don't think it necessarily means they won't reconnect until ADOS. (I'd throw an almighty tantrum if that was the case and besides I don't think GRRM can wrap up this story in 2 books, I'm definitely banking on a third) When we consider that she hides his cloak beneath her summer silks, it does seem like their love will be able to bloom when winter is over.

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Well it does kinda fit, although I don't think it necessarily means they won't reconnect until ADOS. (I'd throw an almighty tantrum if that was the case and besides I don't think GRRM can wrap up this story in 2 books, I'm definitely banking on a third) When we consider that she hides his cloak beneath her summer silks, it does seem like their love will be able to bloom when winter is over.

You and I will both throw a tantrum, brash! :bawl: Yeah, I've been thinking it's going to take three books to wrap everything up. <_< At the pace some of the characters stories are moving, I don't see a way it can be done in two.

Good point about Sansa's summer silks! That's a lovely thought/analogy. :)

I don't think it will take until ADOS for them to meet up again, I think it might happen in the next book. I wish I had more of a concrete idea of how it was going to come about. :frown5:

Oh, and I found another reference to a cave.....on the Quiet Isle...remember when Brienne visited the Isle in AFFC (jumping ahead a bit I know...), she met the Elder Brother there (the one who was a knight, in the past).:

“A cave with a door?” Ser Hyle said, surprised.

Septon Meribald smiled. “It is called the Hermit’s Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later.” Perhaps two thousand years ago the Hermit’s Hole had been a damp, dark place, floored with dirt and echoing to the sounds of dripping water, but no longer. The cave that Brienne and her companions entered had been turned into a warm, snug sanctum. Woolen carpets covered the ground, tapestries the walls. Tall beeswax candles gave more than ample light. The furnishings were strange but simple; a long table, a settle, a chest, several tall cases full of books, and chairs. All were made from driftwood, oddly shaped pieces cunningly joined together and polished till they shone a deep gold in the candlelight.

.

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Oh, and I found another reference to a cave.....on the Quiet Isle...remember when Brienne visited the Isle in AFFC (jumping ahead a bit I know...), she met the Elder Brother there (the one who was a knight, in the past).:

“A cave with a door?” Ser Hyle said, surprised.

Septon Meribald smiled. “It is called the Hermit’s Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later.” Perhaps two thousand years ago the Hermit’s Hole had been a damp, dark place, floored with dirt and echoing to the sounds of dripping water, but no longer. The cave that Brienne and her companions entered had been turned into a warm, snug sanctum. Woolen carpets covered the ground, tapestries the walls. Tall beeswax candles gave more than ample light. The furnishings were strange but simple; a long table, a settle, a chest, several tall cases full of books, and chairs. All were made from driftwood, oddly shaped pieces cunningly joined together and polished till they shone a deep gold in the candlelight.

.

Hmmm, very interesting... so, the hermit's hole is currently where the Elder brother resides? Maybe there was something to the hermit's powers in the fingers...

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