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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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Sorry folks.....life...very busy...this evening hopefully....next chapter...aaarrrghhh.

I am putting this link up here for future reference

http://www.wku.edu/~...302/critias.htm

http://en.wikipedia..../Thirty_Tyrants

I can only say that it would suit a tyrant to say that all morals-even religious morals-were created by the state.

No doubt it would suit a psychopath to say that all morals-even religious morals-were made up by the individual.

In the case of Petyr Baelish, it suits his interests to define Sansa's reality as Alayne.

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There are a few things that I've been thinking about that I just want to throw out there. Could this all be a little "crackpot", perhaps. But I felt it might be interesting enough to mention.

If I may jump back to the cloak "situation" once more. We know thus far, Sansa is given three cloaks (or maybe I should say four). The first by Sandor, the second by Tyrion, and the third by LF. Take into consideration the colors of the cloaks.

The first one, which is given to her by Sandor, is a white cloak (His KG cloak), when Joff has one of his knights beat and strip her. White can be symbolic of many things; among them: winter, snow, good, marriage and purity.

He actually gives her another cloak, the night of the Battle of the Blackwater. Again, it's his white KG cloak, but it's bloody.

It popped into my mind that this cloak makes me think of the wedding night sheet that's supposed to be displayed before the hall, the morning after a virgin bride and her husband "do the deed". Well, he had been sleeping in her bed and did leave the cloak in her chamber! (Albeit on the floor, typical man! :laugh: ).

I also thought about these two quotes and Sansa regarding cloaks and marriage.

This one is from AGOT, earlier in the day, before Arya has her "run-in" with Joff:

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile.

And then there's this from ASOS, when Sansa is wed to Tyrion:

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

Now, the second cloak that Sansa receives from Tyrion is red. When he wished for her to kneel so he could place the cloak on her, she refused. That cloak was red. Red can symbolize many things (passion, strength, love, etc.). It can also symbolize danger, war violence, as well as blood. I tend to see this particular cloak representing the latter (danger, blood, etc) just on the pretense of all the strife Sansa's experienced at the Lannister's hands.

Unfortunately, we don't know the color of the cloak that Petyr gave to Sansa. I've checked the chapter, and it doesn't state its color, so I can't comment on it. I wonder if that was something that was deliberately left out? :dunno: Granted that scene did take place at night, so I don't know if the cloak's color would have been noticeable to Sansa anyway or been included in the description.

Lastly, all this talk about "songs" and Sansa's love for them, as well as her story arc made me think of this:

"The Song of Solomon" (or "The Song of Songs"), which is a book of the Bible famous for its love poetry. It has a few interpretations, and one of them can be said to be that:

The protagonists of "The Song of Songs" are a woman and a man, and the poem suggests movement from courtship to consummation.

(Just FYI: Most people are probably familiar with the quote: "I am my beloved's and my beloved is mine", which comes from a section of that work.)

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I agree with what Queen Cersei mentioned about Lysa and Cersei being horrible to other women, but I think that even if their lives had turn out to be what they wished and they hadn’t need to break society’s views, they would still look down on women. Cersei has been like that ever since she was a kid, and we can assume that up until her mother died and the whole Maggy the Frog prophecy and her not being engaged to Rhaegar, her life was pretty much wonderful. But yet she still liked to sort of look down on her girlfriends whether it be cause she was prettier, or braver, or better born. And Lysa, I think that she would like to look down on other women if they happen to be prettier than she is, so she could feel a sort of power over them. But she’s had this problem ever since she was a girl since Cat was always the prettier, and the one LF loved, so… Other examples of women who are breaking the rules could be Arianne Martell, Asha, the Sand Snakes, Brienne… Whether it be cause in Dorne more liberties are allowed to women, or the fact that you’re a woman trying to be a knight, well, we don’t get to see them looking down on women, whether they be prettier or just weaker in character. In fact, arya could be considered one who has broken tradition, and (though never in a Cersei level) looks down a little to those who are weaker than she is, whether they be men or women: like with Weasel. Of course that this isn’t always the case with her though. And with Sansa, I think that she will never look down on women. Part of this could be cause she isn’t really hungry for power- she may want Winterfell back, but I think she’d be just as content with being the Lady of Winterfell till Rickon can rule, or with being Queen of the North. But I agree that with you that Cersei seduced Jaime in order to inherit the Rock.

- And you’re right, voodooqueen126, at this point Sansa’s story could be meant to be the Quest as much as it could turn up to be the return Voyage and Return.

- I don’t know about Jon Arryn not being SweetRobin’s father. I would like this theory cause it would mean that the perfect LF didn’t manage to make a child he could be proud of, but I astill think it’s Jon Arryn’s old age one of the factrs for Robert to be so weak. But we know that even if LF was the father, he wouldn’t care one bit about his son. The one he and Lysa were supposed to have before Hosteer Tully gave her moon tea doesn’t seem to have affected LF very much, so why would sweetrobin? They are only proofs that he didn’t manage to get Cat, and had to content himself with Lysa. But I totally agree with the comment one of you made earlier of LF and Lysa having some sort of sexual relationship back in KL. I’m sure LF would only go to her when he wanted something out of the Arryns, but this could very well explain why Lysa so readily agreed to poison her husband.

- QoW, I know! Sandor’s deathbed confession would have been so awesome to read about! I bet that- since I’m sure Sandor isn’t dead- he was a little uncomfortable once he recovered from his fever and recalled that he probably told all his secrets to a stranger. & I also liked your theories about the cloaks. Tyrion’s red cloak is mean to be love and passion and strength, but in reality- and sansa knows this- it means blood and war in some ways. I hope that LF’s cloak was dark (he had to dress in dark colors that night due to the secrecy of the kidnapping attempt, I would think, so maybe a dark cloak means some bad stuff? like danger or death? But of course that sandor’s white cloak- whether it be stained with blood or not- is the one meant for sansa since this is the one she had chosen to put on twice… but I liked it when you mentioned the part where sansa is thinking during her wedding how she had always pictured the event would be like. Besides liking it cause the man she mentions here is tall and strong like Sandor, I always remember Ned’s words and how they could very well be a hint for her future when he is telling her that he is sending her north and one day he’ll make her a match with “someone brave and gentle and strong…” and then seconds later she kisses tyrion while she recalls the Hound! the only bad thing about that specific moment in her life is that this is another of sansa’s illusions from childhood that have been so far crushed: having a nice wedding and bedding with a man she loved, tenderly kissing her… so unlike what she got with Tyrion standing on donto’s back and all…

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I agree with what Queen Cersei mentioned about Lysa and Cersei being horrible to other women, but I think that even if their lives had turn out to be what they wished and they hadn’t need to break society’s views, they would still look down on women. Cersei has been like that ever since she was a kid, and we can assume that up until her mother died and the whole Maggy the Frog prophecy and her not being engaged to Rhaegar, her life was pretty much wonderful. But yet she still liked to sort of look down on her girlfriends whether it be cause she was prettier, or braver, or better born. And Lysa, I think that she would like to look down on other women if they happen to be prettier than she is, so she could feel a sort of power over them. But she’s had this problem ever since she was a girl since Cat was always the prettier, and the one LF loved, so… Other examples of women who are breaking the rules could be Arianne Martell, Asha, the Sand Snakes, Brienne… Whether it be cause in Dorne more liberties are allowed to women, or the fact that you’re a woman trying to be a knight, well, we don’t get to see them looking down on women, whether they be prettier or just weaker in character. In fact, arya could be considered one who has broken tradition, and (though never in a Cersei level) looks down a little to those who are weaker than she is, whether they be men or women: like with Weasel. Of course that this isn’t always the case with her though. And with Sansa, I think that she will never look down on women. Part of this could be cause she isn’t really hungry for power- she may want Winterfell back, but I think she’d be just as content with being the Lady of Winterfell till Rickon can rule, or with being Queen of the North. But I agree that with you that Cersei seduced Jaime in order to inherit the Rock.

- And you’re right, voodooqueen126, at this point Sansa’s story could be meant to be the Quest as much as it could turn up to be the return Voyage and Return.

- I don’t know about Jon Arryn not being SweetRobin’s father. I would like this theory cause it would mean that the perfect LF didn’t manage to make a child he could be proud of, but I astill think it’s Jon Arryn’s old age one of the factrs for Robert to be so weak. But we know that even if LF was the father, he wouldn’t care one bit about his son. The one he and Lysa were supposed to have before Hosteer Tully gave her moon tea doesn’t seem to have affected LF very much, so why would sweetrobin? They are only proofs that he didn’t manage to get Cat, and had to content himself with Lysa. But I totally agree with the comment one of you made earlier of LF and Lysa having some sort of sexual relationship back in KL. I’m sure LF would only go to her when he wanted something out of the Arryns, but this could very well explain why Lysa so readily agreed to poison her husband.

I tend to think that the reason Cersei and Lysa notice the unfairness of the patriarchy is well... they're psychopaths (Cersei) or atleast have borderline personality disorder (Lysa-and her marriage to LF is textbook example of a woman with BPD marrying a psychopath and a malignant narcissist). So because people with these personality disorders are transgressive, and in our real world, they transgress laws against not taking drugs, not sleeping with lots of people, and caring for ones own children in a way that's good for them (atleast that's what the BPD lady I knew was like), but Lysa only has the oppurtunity to sleep with LF, eat too much, nurture sweet robin in a strange way, and poisons her husband when he threatens her relationship with Sweet Robin...

Same with Cersei: if she lived in our world she would transgress against laws about financial honesty and incest. But because she lives in Westeros, she trangresses against marital obeidence (not a law we have) and desires property, despite laws of male primogeniture (again we don't have that law, so we can't break it), unlike our world she does have the oppurtunity to torture people.

So I tend to see the feminism of these women as just a convenient lie that they tell.

Same with LF: the only reason he objects to class privilige is that he was born lower class, had he been born heir to Casterly Rock (like Tywin), he would love class privilige, and would still be just as contemptuous of the rule of law/human decency.

We must always remember that the morality system espoused by psychopaths is just a morality system that they believe would advantage them in their quest to have power over their fellow human beings for the purpose of hurting their fellow human beings.

This is why any totalitarian ideology is attractive to psychopaths, since totalitarian systems enable them to rise to power, once in power they are able to rewrite morals thus rendering their behaviour acceptable (see Critias), and use that power to hurt people (because the suffering of other's amuses them).

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@voodooqueen126,

it is indeed pretty fearsome how the human mind can work. i hadn't thought of lysa killing jon cause he wanted to send robert to dragonstone or the Rock, but only cause LF convinced her to do so. but yes, she also saw a threat to her relationship with her son, so she used the tears of lys.

after you highlighted the way that cersei, lysa, and LF's mind work, i think that sansa has been both lucky and unlucky in her life. she has had the misfortune to have to endure some experiences with these three, and yet she has so far unconciously outwitted and outlived them. she survived cersei and lysa, but she still has LF to deal with. George seems to be creating a pattern here where he has sansa living with one crazy person, only to have her fall into the clutches of a new one once she escapes the former one. so i hope that she can once again survive and free herself of LF, cause three times the charm :frown5:

but she's been lucky not to thoroughly fall under the influence of these people and has managed to hold on to her early believes, which happen to be the accurate ones, like being compassionate, still liking songs, worrying about other's welfare. not treating others beneath her contempt just cause they happen to be lowborn. she hasn't forgotten her roots, though LF has tried to make this happen.

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I tend to think that the reason Cersei and Lysa notice the unfairness of the patriarchy is well... they're psychopaths (Cersei) or atleast have borderline personality disorder (Lysa-and her marriage to LF is textbook example of a woman with BPD marrying a psychopath and a malignant narcissist). So because people with these personality disorders are transgressive, and in our real world, they transgress laws against not taking drugs, not sleeping with lots of people, and caring for ones own children in a way that's good for them (atleast that's what the BPD lady I knew was like), but Lysa only has the oppurtunity to sleep with LF, eat too much, nurture sweet robin in a strange way, and poisons her husband when he threatens her relationship with Sweet Robin...

Same with Cersei: if she lived in our world she would transgress against laws about financial honesty and incest. But because she lives in Westeros, she trangresses against marital obeidence (not a law we have) and desires property, despite laws of male primogeniture (again we don't have that law, so we can't break it), unlike our world she does have the oppurtunity to torture people.

So I tend to see the feminism of these women as just a convenient lie that they tell.

Same with LF: the only reason he objects to class privilige is that he was born lower class, had he been born heir to Casterly Rock (like Tywin), he would love class privilige, and would still be just as contemptuous of the rule of law/human decency.

We must always remember that the morality system espoused by psychopaths is just a morality system that they believe would advantage them in their quest to have power over their fellow human beings for the purpose of hurting their fellow human beings.

This is why any totalitarian ideology is attractive to psychopaths, since totalitarian systems enable them to rise to power, once in power they are able to rewrite morals thus rendering their behaviour acceptable (see Critias), and use that power to hurt people (because the suffering of other's amuses them).

I think that is the problem in Martin's narration-that the women who do identify and complain about the unfairness of the patriarchy can (and are) dismissed as insane or psycopaths. Had his portrayal of Cersei been more sympathetic or more grey, this wouldn't be a problem but as it stands, the only characters blacker than her are the likes of Ramsay and Gregor.

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I think that is the problem in Martin's narration-that the women who do identify and complain about the unfairness of the patriarchy can (and are) dismissed as insane or psycopaths. Had his portrayal of Cersei been more sympathetic or more grey, this wouldn't be a problem but as it stands, the only characters blacker than her are the likes of Ramsay and Gregor.

Cersei complains about the patriarchy, but which are the other ones? The only ones I can think of are Dany (although not overtly), Arianne (to a degree), Brienne and Asha. Apart from Cersei, they're certainly portrayed in a far more positive light.

It also seems to me that from the beginning, we are presented with a set of values, we see Cersei breaking them and she's "evil", but as the book series goes along, we see more and more subverting of tropes, more and more "twisting" of values. Characters like Sansa, Jaime and the Hound who were set up to be seen as arrogant, annoying and naive, and brutal and murderous have shown other sides of themselves. Melisandre is another one of these, in her own way. Personally, I hope Cersei will join them as I like her as cruel and arrogant, but not evil. What we took for granted as either "evil" or "good" is not so simple anymore. Characters end up being more flawed and shades of grey than true old skool evil overlord evil.

To contrast, you have Tyrion and Arya set up as nice characters, but they do some horrendous things, too. You could even lump Theon in with this lot, in his own fashion.

On a totally different note: Littlefinger and his ambitions with Sansa.

Regarding the plot point of LF taking Cat's maidenhead, since it's come up again in this chapter and has been a plot point since AGOT, I wonder if LF won't try and score the third Tully as well in Sansa. Sure, he wants her to marry Harry, but will Harry really know if she's a maiden on their wedding night, given enough booze and maybe something "stronger"? We know LF is not in the least fussed about giving Sweetrobin stuff to make him calm down and sleep, and I wonder if this is not foreshadowing for another use of that substance?

We already know LF thinks of Sansa as his new, improved Cat 2.0 and it struck me that when he mentions to her that he took her mother's maidenhead that we speak what our heart desire. Why would he even mention it to her otherwise? I'm getting more and more convinced that not only does LF plan on taking Sansa's maidenhead, he also plans on eventually marrying her herself, since Cersei mentions he offered to marry Sansa after Ned's death. (This also strengthens the theory that LF influenced Joffrey to lop Ned's head off.)

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On a totally different note: Littlefinger and his ambitions with Sansa.

Regarding the plot point of LF taking Cat's maidenhead, since it's come up again in this chapter and has been a plot point since AGOT, I wonder if LF won't try and score the third Tully as well in Sansa. Sure, he wants her to marry Harry, but will Harry really know if she's a maiden on their wedding night, given enough booze and maybe something "stronger"? We know LF is not in the least fussed about giving Sweetrobin stuff to make him calm down and sleep, and I wonder if this is not foreshadowing for another use of that substance?

I thought that his obsession manifested, because he has never managed to get her affections and believed it to be so because of his status, which was aggregated by her father response after he found out about him and Lysa. When in fact she was fond of him, but nothing more, definitely not shared his feelings i.e. the story of lovesick puppy only with a crazy stocker ending.

Also I have no doubt that if he could he would take the opportunity to have Sansa.

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Cersei complains about the patriarchy, but which are the other ones? The only ones I can think of are Dany (although not overtly), Arianne (to a degree), Brienne and Asha. Apart from Cersei, they're certainly portrayed in a far more positive light.

It also seems to me that from the beginning, we are presented with a set of values, we see Cersei breaking them and she's "evil", but as the book series goes along, we see more and more subverting of tropes, more and more "twisting" of values. Characters like Sansa, Jaime and the Hound who were set up to be seen as arrogant, annoying and naive, and brutal and murderous have shown other sides of themselves. Melisandre is another one of these, in her own way. Personally, I hope Cersei will join them as I like her as cruel and arrogant, but not evil. What we took for granted as either "evil" or "good" is not so simple anymore. Characters end up being more flawed and shades of grey than true old skool evil overlord evil.

I think this is very poignant. No one person is purely good or evil, but rather a blending of the two. Real people are flawed and I like to see characters written that way as well. It makes them seem more real and convincing to me. In a perfect world things would be black and white, but unfortunately they're not.

To contrast, you have Tyrion and Arya set up as nice characters, but they do some horrendous things, too. You could even lump Theon in with this lot, in his own fashion. .

Agreed. (Even though I can't stand Theon! But his chapters are well written.)

On a totally different note: Littlefinger and his ambitions with Sansa.

Regarding the plot point of LF taking Cat's maidenhead, since it's come up again in this chapter and has been a plot point since AGOT, I wonder if LF won't try and score the third Tully as well in Sansa. Sure, he wants her to marry Harry, but will Harry really know if she's a maiden on their wedding night, given enough booze and maybe something "stronger"? We know LF is not in the least fussed about giving Sweetrobin stuff to make him calm down and sleep, and I wonder if this is not foreshadowing for another use of that substance?

We already know LF thinks of Sansa as his new, improved Cat 2.0 and it struck me that when he mentions to her that he took her mother's maidenhead that we speak what our heart desire. Why would he even mention it to her otherwise? I'm getting more and more convinced that not only does LF plan on taking Sansa's maidenhead, he also plans on eventually marrying her herself, since Cersei mentions he offered to marry Sansa after Ned's death. (This also strengthens the theory that LF influenced Joffrey to lop Ned's head off.)

Lyanna, this is something I've believed for a long time as well. It seriously creeps me out. By making her depend on him and him alone (being removed from any family or friends), Sansa is put in a very, very bad position. While I don't think she trusts him completely and that she has her suspicions about him, I don't know what she would do if he tried to either force himself on her or drug her.The thought makes me shudder. :ack:

Up thread I mentioned Bran's dream of seeing Sansa cry herself to sleep. Is this something that we're going to see? Or has it already happened?

One hope could be that the Mad Mouse (Ser Shadrich), who is now in LF's employ at the Gates of The Moon, would recognize her. Prior to this we see in AFFC, when he runs into Brienne, that he's been searching for Sansa, looking to turn her in for a reward. If he does recognize her, will he turn her in for gold, or will he become the next "Ser Dontos" and perhaps help her try to escape?

And just FYI: I believe the name Shadrich, might be an interpretation of Shadrach, a figure from biblical writings:

He and his two companions refused to bow down before the image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up on the plains of Dura. Their conduct filled the king with the greatest fury, and he commanded them to be cast into the burning fiery furnace. Here, amid the fiery flames, they were miraculously preserved from harm. Over them the fire had no power, "neither was a hair of their head singed, neither had the smell of fire passed on them." One of the translations of his name could possibly be: derived from Shudur Aku: "Command of the moon god" .

Also when I mentioned Petyr's mockingbird sigil upthread, someone (maybe summerqueen? I don't remember!) mentioned the book " To Kill A Mockingbird". The two children in the story were reprimanded for wanting to play a game of "Shadrach" in church. Interesting!

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Up thread I mentioned Bran's dream of seeing Sansa cry herself to sleep. Is this something that we're going to see? Or has it already happened?
I think Bran's dream refers to the Lady episode :

- He saw his mother and Ser Rodrick on a ship : going to King's Landing by sea at the time (happening)

- He saw his father pleading with the King : probably about Lady's fate (just happened)

- Sansa crying herself to sleep : over Lady's death (just happened)

- Arya nursing her anger : about Mycah being killed (just happened)

- His brother Jon at the Wall

He really saw the world as it was at the time, not in a prophetic kind of way...

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Cercei is definitely a grey character to me (dark-grey, but still grey).

She is a bitch, but most of her actions are explainable, it’s not like the evils in James Bond movies that just want to get rid of the human race, or rule the universe for some unknown reason.

Examples:

I always felt kind of sad for Tyrion that his big sister has been so mean to him since he was born, but after reading in AFFC and learning about the Maggy the Frog predictions (that she would be killed by her Valonqar), I can understand why she was never able to open emotionally to him after that.

Maggy the Frog also told her that she would witness the death of all her children, so I totally get that she would be so paranoid and overprotective after hearing that. She’s like a lioness with her lion cups, surrounded by predators, showing her teeth to everyone, trying to make them flee to protect her children. She is extremely paranoid, and with the death of Joffrey, the prophecy seems to be fulfilling itself, making her even more scared and tensed.

Cercei is not what I would call a good person, but she is definitely not pure evil to me.

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OMG, correct me if i'm wrong, but Lyanna Stark, i was just watching the video where George is being interviewd at Eastercon, and i'm pretty sure that the first question he answered is yours! the guy asking the questions said that it came from lyanna stark over at westeros, and since the question was about if sansa will ever get a replacement of Lady, i guess it was your question?! :eek: that's really awesome! :D and even though george doesn't really say if there is going to be a replacement, at least he didn't deny it, so if it is you, just wanted to say it was a really cool way to hint at the possibility of sandor and sansa staying together in the future :cool4:

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OMG, correct me if i'm wrong, but Lyanna Stark, i was just watching the video where George is being interviewd at Eastercon, and i'm pretty sure that the first question he answered is yours! the guy asking the questions said that it came from lyanna stark over at westeros, and since the question was about if sansa will ever get a replacement of Lady, i guess it was your question?! :eek: that's really awesome! :D and even though george doesn't really say if there is going to be a replacement, at least he didn't deny it, so if it is you, just wanted to say it was a really cool way to hint at the possibility of sandor and sansa staying together in the future :cool4:

Where did you find the video!? Is there a link that you can share with us? I'd like to see the interview if possible! :)

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I think Bran's dream refers to the Lady episode :

- He saw his mother and Ser Rodrick on a ship : going to King's Landing by sea at the time (happening)

- He saw his father pleading with the King : probably about Lady's fate (just happened)

- Sansa crying herself to sleep : over Lady's death (just happened)

- Arya nursing her anger : about Mycah being killed (just happened)

- His brother Jon at the Wall

He really saw the world as it was at the time, not in a prophetic kind of way...

Interesting, but what about the shadows?

Especially the one that really seems to be Un-Gregor?

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Interesting, but what about the shadows?

Especially the one that really seems to be Un-Gregor?

It could also be LF since the giant's helmet is "Stone" and his sigil is the "Titan" of Braavos.

It might mean LF is a shadow lurking over all of them, as he was the one who put everything in motion, that brought us where the story is today.

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To me, it's really hard to believe that the giant shadow in Bran's dream would be the one of someone else then Un-Gregor.

My reasons:

  • No head
  • Black blood
  • Giant

Sansa's giant might be Petyr though, but that's another matter...

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OMG, correct me if i'm wrong, but Lyanna Stark, i was just watching the video where George is being interviewd at Eastercon, and i'm pretty sure that the first question he answered is yours!

Hell to the yes that's my question. :lol:

Unfortunately not answered, but that's normally a good thing, since I remember lots of older questions of "Is baby Aegon dead?" and that sort of thing which got the same type of answer.

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To me, it's really hard to believe that the giant shadow in Bran's dream would be the one of someone else then Un-Gregor.

My reasons:

  • No head
  • Black blood
  • Giant

Sansa's giant might be Petyr though, but that's another matter...

actually it fit petyr quite well

for the celts(and hindus) the Head is the seat of the soul and we can agree that petyr is a soulless person in a way

his ancestry and and his black heart

his sigil

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