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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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Caro said:

One of the only positive things he says about her character without adding the plus of her looks is when he says he could have loved sansa for not laughing at the dwarves. He could have loved her for that, meaning he is fooling himself day after day with notions of Braavos and Casterley Rock.

You know, in thinking ahead to ADWD when Tyrion actually becomes a jousting dwarf, the contrast between then and now is startling. During Tyrion's time in KL he is just completely self-involved and paranoid when it comes to his appearance and what people think of him. Sure, there's a reason he thinks this way, but it just makes him play into the hands of his enemies time and time again. His statement above shows once more that any love Sansa could have genuinely received from Tyrion would remain centered around himself. The fact of the matter is that the jousting dwarves were funny and people weren't laughing to merely be cruel to Tyrion. Had Tyrion laughed along with it, he would have completely undermined the plans Joff had to humiliate him.

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Tyrion had a ego full of pride larger than even gregor's head could contain. at times he was able to swallow said pride but more often than not it got him into trouble.

Sansa is able to hide it most of the time although yes i DID cheer when she refused to kneel!!!

I know i know the horse is dead but....in regards to Tyrion coming back, LF, Cersei, etc..........the mere fact that NO ONE not even Varys knew of her connection with Sandor is going to come into play somehow.

Granted right now whenever his name is dropped, its in connection to being a wanted man due to the raidings, "joining Beric", etc even though we all know he is innocent.

He is just a connection that no one knows of. LF knew about Dontos......but Sandor wasnt paid by anyone. He isn't under anyone's thumb and he is no fan of the Lannisters.

I only mention this in line with the fact that Sansa is able to keep things so close to her chest. She is developing it to an art-form currently and it will come into play

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@Queen of Winter, quoting Brash:

:agree: That's true! The leaked Tyrell plot may have made Tywin move faster to chain Sansa than he otherwise would have. In which case, they had done her wrong even before distancing themselves :( and she's right to kill them with kindness. Oh, for a Margaery POV!

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Another important point concerning Sansa's development in this chapter surrounds the two things that elicit a genuine response from her: the singer's comment about Cersei's valour, and when she notices that Ser Ilyn no longer has Ice. It once again underscores the conflict between the personal and the political in Sansa's life. Her concern over her father's sword, and her outrage that Cersei is being given credit for her (in)actions during the war. For the latter, it may be another clue that Sansa will one day become a Queen in her own right, if only in an act of resistance against the example set by Cersei during the BBB. Tyrion tells her to never believe anything she hears in a song, but I do think that Sansa's outburst has deeper implications than highlighting the mere naivete that Tyrion thinks she is displaying here. We know that Sansa's arc has always involved a love of songs and tales, but for the most part she's come to see that real life isn't like a song. I think what we're witnessing here is not naivete so much as it is a conscious statement of rebellion against the inbred falsity of this world that exists to flatter and charm. She might end up playing the game for a while, but I don't know if this is the road that Sansa will ultimately choose to go. What is clear is that GRRM wants to keep the question alive.

ETA: I should also note here how perhaps in Sansa's case the personal will fuel the political: outrage over her family's dishonour could propel her to seeking Queenship at LF's hands.

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Another important point concerning Sansa's development in this chapter surrounds the two things that elicit a genuine response from her: the singer's comment about Cersei's valour, and when she notices that Ser Ilyn no longer has Ice. It once again underscores the conflict between the personal and the political in Sansa's life. Her concern over her father's sword, and her outrage that Cersei is being given credit for her (in)actions during the war. For the latter, it may be another clue that Sansa will one day become a Queen in her own right, if only in an act of resistance against the example set by Cersei during the BBB. Tyrion tells her to never believe anything she hears in a song, but I do think that Sansa's outburst has deeper implications than highlighting the mere naivete that Tyrion thinks she is displaying here. We know that Sansa's arc has always involved a love of songs and tales, but for the most part she's come to see that real life isn't like a song. I think what we're witnessing here is not naivete so much as it is a conscious statement of rebellion against the inbred falsity of this world that exists to flatter and charm. She might end up playing the game for a while, but I don't know if this is the road that Sansa will ultimately choose to go. What is clear is that GRRM wants to keep the question alive.

Personally I've always thought that Sansa, after seeing how things are really done in a royal household or on that level, with all the politics/subterfuge/backstabbing, will choose to "opt out" of the game at some point in her life. (I'd like to see her happy in the end, Queen or not). Do I think she'd make a good Queen, I think so as I believe she has a good heart. Remember she wants to "make people love her".

But would she actually be allowed to rule the way she wanted? Unfortunately I doubt it. :unsure:

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Quote:

Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful.]

Has anyone else noticed that Sansa’s hairs are described as autumn auburn? Autumn yellow is the color of house Clegane… I know that’s freakish on my part because that’s probably just a coincidence, but still! Autumn should be their season, is it winter yet?

Nice catch. It could be just a colour connection as a lot of Redheads wear Autumn colours, however there is an upcoming chapter in AFFC where either GRRM is contrasting a similar scene to Cersei in AFFC in terms of what they choose to wear, or mucks up completely as he basically has her choose to dress in House Clegane colours. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Sorry guys!

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I still find myself focusing on my thoughts about Tyrion's view of Sansa's intellect. I think overall when he breaks through to get some sort of decent conversation out of her, that he recognizes that there is more to her than what most of the rest of the people in the castle perceive, and I don't think he finds her "stupid" in the way Joff and Cersei do. There are three instances now where he makes a positive statement about her thoughts: a) this chapter when he thinks about how good she is at saying the right things to people and making people like her, B) the chapter when he thinks about going with her to the godswood and she says no he would find it boring and he thinks "maybe she does know me better than I thought," and c) back in ACOK, right after he saves her from Joff's beating and she says she doesn't want to stay in his apartments with the Clansmen for protection because she would have nightmares and he thinks she smarter than he realized.

So, for all of you who think Tyrion thinks of Sansa as stupid, let me ask two questions. First, what do you think his thoughts above mean about Sansa's intellect, and second, do you think others, like Cersei and Olenna, would ever think those same things about her?

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I still find myself focusing on my thoughts about Tyrion's view of Sansa's intellect. I think overall when he breaks through to get some sort of decent conversation out of her, that he recognizes that there is more to her than what most of the rest of the people in the castle perceive, and I don't think he finds her "stupid" in the way Joff and Cersei do. There are three instances now where he makes a positive statement about her thoughts: a) this chapter when he thinks about how good she is at saying the right things to people and making people like her, B) the chapter when he thinks about going with her to the godswood and she says no he would find it boring and he thinks "maybe she does know me better than I thought," and c) back in ACOK, right after he saves her from Joff's beating and she says she doesn't want to stay in his apartments with the Clansmen for protection because she would have nightmares and he thinks she smarter than he realized.

So, for all of you who think Tyrion thinks of Sansa as stupid, let me ask two questions. First, what do you think his thoughts above mean about Sansa's intellect, and second, do you think others, like Cersei and Olenna, would ever think those same things about her?

He seems to be occasionally surprised by her responses, but like with his thoughts about Marg, Joff and Loras, doesn't take his analysis any further. It is really only Sandor, and (shiver) Littlefinger, who see more of who she really is.

I think so far in the text Cersei and Olenna seem to see her as stupid and easy to manipulate though.

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I still find myself focusing on my thoughts about Tyrion's view of Sansa's intellect. I think overall when he breaks through to get some sort of decent conversation out of her, that he recognizes that there is more to her than what most of the rest of the people in the castle perceive, and I don't think he finds her "stupid" in the way Joff and Cersei do. There are three instances now where he makes a positive statement about her thoughts: a) this chapter when he thinks about how good she is at saying the right things to people and making people like her, B) the chapter when he thinks about going with her to the godswood and she says no he would find it boring and he thinks "maybe she does know me better than I thought," and c) back in ACOK, right after he saves her from Joff's beating and she says she doesn't want to stay in his apartments with the Clansmen for protection because she would have nightmares and he thinks she smarter than he realized.

So, for all of you who think Tyrion thinks of Sansa as stupid, let me ask two questions. First, what do you think his thoughts above mean about Sansa's intellect, and second, do you think others, like Cersei and Olenna, would ever think those same things about her?

I don't think that Tyrion honestly views her to be dumb ore stupid, like you said Tyrion seems to view her as clever. However his poor judgment of Sansa's character is pretty frustrating. Granted Sansa's armour keeps him from understanding her at all. Sandor, Dontos and even creepy finger seem to see further and her potential.

Off-topic: Hello I don't recall ever introducing myself here even though I posted three comments at this topic. Anyway love Sansa and I would like to join the reread of her chapters.

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Arrrgh, my original post was eaten! :bang:

Quote:Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful.]

Has anyone else noticed that Sansa’s hairs are described as autumn auburn? Autumn yellow is the color of house Clegane… I know that’s freakish on my part because that’s probably just a coincidence, but still! Autumn should be their season, is it winter yet?

(Just wanted to add this, but this is a little interesting OT bit about the colors thing: Catelyn's mother was a Whent ,who then married Hoster Tully. House Whent's colors are also black and yellow. It's always said that Sansa takes after her mother, so maybe those particular colors might be in her future... ;) .)

Also on the subject of the "younger, more beautiful queen", like all the other prophecies, perhaps it's not to be taken literally? Perhaps it does mean Sansa, but in another way.

Maybe it refers to the way she conducts herself/the way she acts (i.e. queenly manners, so to speak)? She carries herself well, is well spoken and kind. IMHO she definitely fits the traditional idea of a "good queen". One can be "regal" and "queenly" without actually being a queen. :dunno:

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I don't think that Tyrion honestly views her to be dumb ore stupid, like you said Tyrion seems to view her as clever. However his poor judgment of Sansa's character is pretty frustrating. Granted Sansa's armour keeps him from understanding her at all. Sandor, Dontos and even creepy finger seem to see further and her potential.

Off-topic: Hello I don't recall ever introducing myself here even though I posted three comments at this topic. Anyway love Sansa and I would like to join the reread of her chapters.

Welcome, Queen Sansa! Jump in at any time :)

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"

He seems to be occasionally surprised by her responses, but like with his thoughts about Marg, Joff and Loras, doesn't take his analysis any further. It is really only Sandor, and (shiver) Littlefinger, who see more of who she really is.

I think so far in the text Cersei and Olenna seem to see her as stupid and easy to manipulate though.

The issue with Tyrion is not that he doesn't recognize Sansa's intellect, although he only comes to do so fairly late in their relationship, but that he's seldom unable to appreciate her outside of his relationship with her. So he spends copious amounts of time noticing her sadness, her haunting beauty, and trying to break through her courtesy armor, without ever getting to the real Sansa, or engaging her in things that she might find interesting. Even though the Hound mocked her belief in songs, he still related to her via this medium, and paradoxically managed to grow closer to her because of it. (There's evidence that Sandor' s mockery of songs is only to cover up his own attraction to them). As we are approaching the LF chapters now, what we'll see is that he too mocked the songs, (life is not a song, sweetling), but replaces them with an education in politics and game playing that can keep Sansa intrigued. Tyrion on the hand, doesn't try to foster anything that Sansa loves, and he can't relate to her love of songs ("the last thing my wife needs is more songs") or her religious piety. He can't teach her the game because his goal remains keeping her as a pawn so that he'll get Winterfell and keeping the Lannister power supreme. So Tyrion is really only interested in how Sansa can assuage his ego, and make him feel wanted and loved.

Actually, writing this post has made me realise how we can define Sansa's relationship with these three men by their opinion on the songs she loves :)

Littlefinger: "Life is not a song sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." (AGOT)

Sandor: "But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no." (ACOK)

Tyrion: "The last thing my wife needs is more songs." (ASOS)

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Actually, writing this post had made me realise how we can define Sansa's relationship with these three men by their opinion on the songs she loves :)

Littlefinger: "Life is not a song sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." (AGOT)

Sandor: "But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no." (ACOK)

Tyrion: "The last thing my wife needs is more songs." (ASOS)

I love this, brashcandy! Fabulous! :thumbsup:

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Actually, writing this post has made me realise how we can define Sansa's relationship with these three men by their opinion on the songs she loves :)

Littlefinger: "Life is not a song sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." (AGOT)

Sandor: "But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no." (ACOK)

Tyrion: "The last thing my wife needs is more songs." (ASOS)

Love that Brash! That’s a nice allegory of Sansa’s relation with these men!

Especially since

  • Littlefinger tries to teach Sansa about what to believe and how to think, so he pushes her to understand and analyse those songs

  • Tyrion don’t want Sansa to have more songs, he denies them to her, as he is in denial about a lot of stuff in their “marriage”, also, he is not really interested in her, as he is not in those songs.

  • Sandor is the only one of them who just wants a song, no questions asked and no need to analyse anything. He is also the only one of these men to be interested in her for no other reasons then who she is as a person.

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Sandor is the only one of them who just wants a song, no questions asked and no need to analyse anything. He is also the only one of these men to be interested in her for no other reasons then who she is as a person.

:agree:

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"

The issue with Tyrion is not that he doesn't recognize Sansa's intellect, although he only comes to do so fairly late in their relationship, but that he's seldom unable to appreciate her outside of his relationship with her. So he spends copious amounts of time noticing her sadness, her haunting beauty, and trying to break through her courtesy armor, without ever getting to the real Sansa, or engaging her in things that she might find interesting. Even though the Hound mocked her belief in songs, he still related to her via this medium, and paradoxically managed to grow closer to her because of it. (There's evidence that Sandor' s mockery of songs is only to cover up his own attraction to them). As we are approaching the LF chapters now, what we'll see is that he too mocked the songs, (life is not a song, sweetling), but replaces them with an education in politics and game playing that can keep Sansa intrigued. Tyrion on the hand, doesn't try to foster anything that Sansa loves, and he can't relate to her love of songs ("the last thing my wife needs is more songs") or her religious piety. He can't teach her the game because his goal remains keeping her as a pawn so that he'll get Winterfell and keeping the Lannister power supreme. So Tyrion is really only interested in how Sansa can assuage his ego, and make him feel wanted and loved.

Actually, writing this post has made me realise how we can define Sansa's relationship with these three men by their opinion on the songs she loves :)

Littlefinger: "Life is not a song sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." (AGOT)

Sandor: "But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no." (ACOK)

Tyrion: "The last thing my wife needs is more songs." (ASOS)

It is interesting to note that Littlefinger actually, of these three very important men in Sansa's life, seems to be the one who not only realizes that there is a working brain inside that pretty auburn head; but procedes to use it. It's true that teaching Sansa benefits Littlefinger, as he has made her into his accomplice as well as his most important pawn. But Littlefinger's teaching Sansa how the Game is played benefits her as well, in teaching her more about the world that has destroyed her family and threatens to destroy her, so that she can prosper as well as survive.

Tyrion's relationship with Sansa is double-sided; he marries her because his father demands it and Sansa is not only a pretty girl but a pretty girl with a fabulous dowry, thanks to Tyrion's siblings and father having been helped cause the destruction of the rest of her family. Tyrion keeps mooning about how lonely he is, how cold and unapproachable his wife is; no matter what he says to her. It's only fairly late in his point of view that he seems to realize that it's unreasonable to expect Sansa to want to love and trust him, considering what his family did to hers; before that, it was poor-pitiful-me. Tyrion is not a man for songs; but he is a man for other forms of romantic delusion; and he's forever hung up in a drama that started as a song, became a love story, than seemed to be a romantic illusion, only turned out in the end had been a love story that Tywin, Jaime and Tyrion himself turned into a tragedy - Tyrion's relationship with Tysha. He possibly hoped on some level that Sansa would be Tysha II, a sweet young orphaned beauty that he could rescue and who would love him unconditionally; and has been finding out ever since Sansa said her vows to him with tears of misery that his young wife is a Stark and both the North and Sansa remember...No wonder Tyrion says his wife doesn't need more songs! I think it's Tyrion who doesn't want to hear more songs. Perhaps he realizes that Sansa may have loved songs, may even still love songs, but she does not want to hear him sing one to her, or to sing a song to him.

And then, of course, there's Sandor. Sansa did sing to him, from her heart, and exerted such a powerful effect on the Hound that he wept and left her without a word.

It can be argued which of these three men gave Sansa the most assistance, but in my opinion there is no argument as to which man Sansa has given the most of herself.

This was a powerful chapter; the Tyrion/Sansa tension building into the broader field of the Purple Wedding, with Sansa as the innocent Death-bringer. Everyone's trying to play each other; and all Sansa wants to do is stay off-radar until she can escape. Yet pale and sad and worried as she is, Sansa still manages to be a great lady; impressing the h*ll out of Kevan and Lancel and Tyrion himself.

Little does she know she is about to run from the frying pan into the fire!

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Love that Brash! That’s a nice allegory of Sansa’s relation with these men!

Especially since

  • Littlefinger tries to teach Sansa about what to believe and how to think, so he pushes her to understand and analyse those songs

  • Tyrion don’t want Sansa to have more songs, he denies them to her, as he is in denial about a lot of stuff in their “marriage”, also, he is not really interested in her, as he is not in those songs.

  • Sandor is the only one of them who just wants a song, no questions asked and no need to analyse anything. He is also the only one of these men to be interested in her for no other reasons then who she is as a person.

Well, truthfully, Sandor's request did need a little analysing ;) and when Sansa talks about singing for him gladly, he laughs at that because he knows his desire isn't so innocent, but one thing for sure is that the trajectory of their relationship moves in a way that challenges him to become the knight in her songs, and at the end of it all the song he gets is the one neither of them expected would be sung, but was the ideal one nonetheless. I agree that Sandor as the only one desiring a song from her shows that he wants Sansa for Sansa, and the fact that it was a religious song, coupled with his treatment on the Quiet isle, suggest that he is moving even closer to the religious sphere that she holds near and dear. (and no, I don't think the Hound will ever be Lancel'd, but perhaps he will emerge closer to an ideal man for Sansa than ever before.)

LF seems to be actively going out of his way to prove to her that life isn't a song, and is therefore concentrating her education now in game playing. It works for him to have her embittered and disillusioned so that she can put all her trust into him.

It can be argued which of these three men gave Sansa the most assistance, but in my opinion there is no argument as to which man Sansa has given the most of herself.

Indeed.

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"

Actually, writing this post has made me realise how we can define Sansa's relationship with these three men by their opinion on the songs she loves :)

Littlefinger: "Life is not a song sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." (AGOT)

Sandor: "But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no." (ACOK)

Tyrion: "The last thing my wife needs is more songs." (ASOS)

Nice!!

And Dontos tries to give her the song of Florian and Jonquil.

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I kind of wish we could include some of the Arya chapters in the Sansa theme where Arya and Sandor each give small input on her and, more specifically, her marriage to Tyrion.

I also hope later the Jaime chapters which give mention of Sansa are included as well and how that could possibly tie into her future in the book we may not read until 20 yrs from now (hopefully HBO puts a fire to GRRM)

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 It's amusing in an odd sort of way that Tyrion can tell she's deflecting everything with a sullen wall of courtesy, but that he so badly fails to understand what lies beneath. 


Sullen? Seriously? I’d say utterly legitimately sad, depressed, and bereaved would be more accurate descriptions, but perhaps you mean sullen in a different sense then I generally use it.

Regardless, I think Tyrion’s failure to see “what lies beneath” here is largely due to his own sexual obsessions, selfishness, and narcissism. Tyrion’s inability to read Sansa is notable, since it goes against his supposedly intuitive nature, and the natural ability to understand he’s shown with other (inevitably male) characters.

For instance, when he first met Jon Snow, no more or less mysterious than Sansa, he was able to understand (and connect with) the boy over a few short weeks. After spending significant time with Sansa, however, he still fails not only understand or connect with her, but to truly see her as a human being. He makes an effort to connect with her and empathize with her feelings (in a way that, notably, he never, ever does with Shae, whom he claims to love), however, these are always colored strongly by his obsession with her physical beauty and his lust for her. He is unable, as he was with Jon, to simply see her as a human being.

Of course, there are greater impediments to Sansa and Tyrion making a connection than there was for Jon and Tyrion. However, IMO, Tyrion’s own personal insecurity, his sexual desire for the barely 13 year old Sansa, and the role he desperately wants her to fulfill all cloud his judgment, making a clear view of, much less an true connection with, her near impossible.

There is also the following undeniable fact—Tyrion DOES want something in return. Not only is his interest in her not altruistic, I think its arguable whether its based in true compassion or other, ulterior motives. Tyrion is generally portrayed as the most thoughtful, compassionate, and decent of his clan, with his heroic concern for Sansa standing in contrast to Joffrey’s sadism and Cersei’s cruel indifference. However, in a sense, he wants something from her and has every bit as much of an agenda as they do. As I noted, all of his moments of sympathy for her are colored by observations of her physical beauty. (I highly doubt Tyrion would care much if it were a homely 13-year-old girl who was suffering in such a manner. Though, its worth saying, he probably never would have married such a girl, and would have treated the suggestion with, “I’d rather chop it off and feed it to the goats!”) And while, he may, as he notes, want to talk with Sansa and discuss their problems together, he also wants regular sex from her—something that I think is linked very closely to his compassion for her, which always has a vaguely creepy, sexual component to it in my eyes.

Another thing that struck me about this chapter is the Sansa/ Shae situation. Though Shae is presented as callous, bitchy, and predatory; an unjustified hater of poor Sansa Stark, I actually think Tyrion is showing unbelievable disrespect towards the feelings and self-respect of both girls. Here, he has his love interest serving as a maid for his wife. Though this is not new, when he walked in and saw them together in this chapter, I was struck anew by how incredibly callous and tacky Tyrion is acting here.

However, he does (apparently) feel somewhat guilty towards Sansa. However, he apparently feels very little concern over the feelings of Shae. Such as when he walks into the room and says to his new 13 year old wife, right in front of the girl who’s been giving him sex, laughing at his jokes, rubbing his legs, and playing his fantasy girlfriend for the past year or so, “You will be the most beautiful woman there.” Honestly, with comments like that, it’s not really all that hard to locate the source of Shae’s jealousy of and malice towards Sansa.

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