(ADWD Spoilers) Melisandre and Jon Snow Speculation

[Lady Mormont]

I’ve been re-reading Melissandre’s parts in ADWD lately and noticed some things.

“She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them“.

– Mel, ADWD

To me it sounds like Mel wants to produce the powerful shadows at the Wall and use them to fight the evil forces of the Others.

To create of the shadow at the Wall she needs a suitable candidate (like Stannis used to be), and it’s kind of obvious that she considers Jon Snow as the best contender for the “task”.

e.g. Mel to Jon, ADWD:

“Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast [Ghost]. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it. I can show you how. The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”

I thought it was the main reason why she was so eager to gain his trust through the whole book (offering him her friendship, helping him saving his sister), she wanted to use him the same way she used Stannis. But who knows, maybe she genuinely liked Jon and just wanted to help/support him. :))

It’s clear that Jon doesn’t trust Mel and would never allow her to manipulate him like this.

“This was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister”

– Jon about Mel, ADWD

But in the end he was betrayed by his own brothers and stabbed to death, even though Mel warned him several times about the dangers coming at him.

Right now Mel = best candidate to save Jon’s life.

ASSUMING she does save him from death, whatever the method might be. This will make him very much indebted to her IMHO. Based on this it’s likely that he might reluctantly agree to any favor she might ask of him (after being saved by her), including assisting in creation of the creepy shadows.

Especially if the main purpose of Mel’s shadows is to fight the Others/Wights, why not try to find out if they would be any effective? And then send them to Eastwatch for example, since it’s likely that the first attack might happen there….?

Was wondering if anyone thinks that is might be a possibility.

Crack-pot incoming:

The shape of those shadows seems to depend on the DNA of the “participant” (e.g. Stannis-Shadows). So isn’t there a probability that the shadows resulting from Jon-Mel union might have the form of either a wolf or a dragon (if R+L=J)?

Mel’s visions from her chapter in ADWD:

“Visions danced before her […] Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky”. – Shadow dragons?

End crack-pot.

Somehow from all the foreshadowing between Mel and Jon in ADWD I felt that Jon's future will dependent and associated with Mel very strongly in future novel.

[Lord-ofLight]

I agree! I can't remember in which book it was, but John had a dream of himself fighting Others with a "burning red sword". While some people speculate that this is lightbringer, I think it's Melisandre. John comments on how she is "fire" (as opposed to "kissed by the fire"), and Vala mentions that sorcery is a "sword without a hilt". I think their allegiance is almost a given in the next book, assuming he's not actually dead of course!

[StarkWolf]

She want's to use him for her shadow babies. I don't think there is any affection there, just blatant attraction to power. She has been seeing him in her fires while looking for Stannis so she knows he's more than what he appears to be.

I really don't want her involved in his ressurection. Because you just know he would feel indebted... and that would allow Mel to have her wicked way with him. She may fight against the Others, but I think there's something inherently wrong about her magic and her 'god'.

I hope the watch have sense enough to light Jon a funeral pyre and he is reborn from that.

[Grimlorn]

I think it's possible she could glamour herself into Ygritte and try to take advantage of Jon Snow. I kind of thought maybe she did that with Stannis' wife just because of Stannis' character. Doesn't seem like he'd cheat, but that comment about her bed makes me think he'd be in her bedroom and not his own.

She was trying to get with Davos too. In a couple years she'll be doing his son if she lasts that long.

[bemused]

I suspect Mel has already glamoured herself to look like Ygritte..when Jon mistakes her for Ygritte just for a moment.. When she mentions a hank of hair as being one of the things that can help a glamour ,I'm thinking she has a swatch of Ygritte's hair . Perhaps as Varamyr recalls doing in the prologue , the young guy who tried to steal Ygritte took some hair as a memento... Stannis and Mel interrogated many wildlings after Mance's defeat.

I think she's so blinkered , so determined that Stannis is AA ( or that she can make it so ) that even though she feels Jon is important , it's only as he can be used to help Stannis... She's propositioned Jon , Davos and probably Mance, but I agree Jon is her prime candidate.

Like StarkWolf , I feel there's something OFF with Mel. I think she'll prove to be terribly misguided , so I hope she won't get control of Jon even momentarily. I hope his healing ( he's not dead ) comes at the hands of Val and probably Morna , partly because I feel there are hints that there's much more to Val than has been shown , and that the wildlings will have an even greater impact than they've had so far.

With Mel making so many mistakes in reading her visions , I think she may be wrong even in her reading of the skulls. Maybe they don't represent death all of the time , but only some of the time. In her vision of BR and Bran , they're surrounded by skulls , which we know they are in the cave of the CoTF... But perhaps this is not a literal depiction either , but an allusion to the long history of the CoTF and their belief that they become one with the Old Gods in death. In this light ,BR and Bran are their / the Old Gods' agents , and so Jon is , or will be.

Because of her own strong beliefs , she's decided that the skulls always mean death. Because R'Hllor and the Great Other are the only two dieties in her understanding , and all other gods are false ( doesn't she tell Jon that he may as well pray to his shoe as pray before a weirwood ?..something like that ) she's not equipped to read her own visions accurately. She believes the CoTF are extinct. She's convinced that the wildlings are doomed to die , but we don't see her exact vision of that , we only hear her interpretation and it could be that they eventually cease to be through assimilation into the rest of the population of Westeros.

[Runaway Penguin]

Of course there is something terribly wrong with Mel.

She's UnMel, that's what. I guess when her glamour falls off, Stannis, if he sees it, would need a long, hot bath. Or two. Or three. And may even be tempted to cut off his manhood (and feed it to the goats).

[bemused]

:D :D Indeed. And even the goats might not find it too appetizing.

That's one of the saddest things about Mel .She equates death with the Great Other and seeks to avoid it altogether ..but what she's striving to attain is not really life , just undeath.

[Bear Claw]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying a wolf shadow might result? If so, this reminds me of what Dany saw in MMD's tent- a shadow of a great wolf (something like that). There was also a man wreathed in flames some say is Stannis, so this seems to make sense. Seems like this might back fire on her.

[The Great Cornholio!]

When Mel said "You know nothing", I cringed.

[LampingIt]

GRRM has trolled a death before with Arya, getting hit with an axe in the back of the head. If a red priest can breath life back into the viper y not Mel into Jon, she knows he's a skin changer and useful for watever cause. Plus who knows if Ramnseys letter holds any weight. Bran once saw Jon thru a weirwood way befor ADWD. Can't wait till Winds

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

GRRM has trolled a death before with Arya, getting hit with an axe in the back of the head. If a red priest can breath life back into the viper y not Mel into Jon, snip...

well if she is un-mel then passing on her "fire" to Jon may result in her own death (a la Un-Beric to Un-Cat)... I for one do not believe she would make that sacrifice for Jon.

[Starks Among Us]

well if she is un-mel then passing on her "fire" to Jon may result in her own death (a la Un-Beric to Un-Cat)... I for one do not believe she would make that sacrifice for Jon.

i was thinking something similar! didnt she make a comment to herself about how her potions/powders are running out? and although her power is stronger at the wall, she is physically becoming weaker b/c of the magic she is doing? in other words, she says her magic is taking its toll on her....iirc.

i'm wondering if maybe she in someway (perhaps unintentionally) sacrifices her life for jons....an unintentional nissa nissa....

though i'm wondering what her "life" really is as she doesn't eat and rarely sleeps, perhaps she is undead or perhaps thats just the price she pays for her power...

[NedStark2013]

Not sure why Mel has an interest in Jon unless Stannis was but a means for her to get to the person who she now believes has a great destiny. I think she is wicked but Thoro is worse. Maybe Jon reminds her of another man she knew when she did feel humans emotions.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Not sure why Mel has an interest in Jon unless Stannis was but a means for her to get to the person who she now believes has a great destiny. I think she is wicked but Thoro is worse. Maybe Jon reminds her of another man she knew when she did feel humans emotions.

As to the: "Stannis was but a means for her to get to the person who she now believes has a great destiny"

Her POV doesn't support that at all. She seems to genuinely still believe that Stannis is AA reborn... though her opinion may change if something miraculous happens w/ Jon now. I think some of the seemingly unnatural interest in him has a lot to do with the fact that he is now the most powerful person at the wall after Stannis' departure (possibly before). She gravitates to power.

If you don't mind can you clarify the "*Thoro is worse" comment? I'm assuming you meant *Thoros but how could he possibly be "worse" than mel?

[SeanF]

Mel may be a wight, but I think it's more likely that her magic has simply prolonged her life way beyond its natural span, and transformed her metabolism.

Also, she makes plain in her point of POV that magic does take a toll. It's agonising for her to perform magic.

[Essan]

Mel may be a wight, but I think it's more likely that her magic has simply prolonged her life way beyond its natural span, and transformed her metabolism.

:agree:

I think it will turn out that Mel is very, very old ...... But I still don't trust her motives. And I seriously hope she doesn't go making shadow babies with Jon - though I can see Davos' son being used that way, if he's old enough?

[Masha]

Thats actually very possible since I remember GRRM mentioned somewhere in his interviews for next book that Jon will stray to dark side and make some very questionable decisions. It might be a hint that he will decide to sleep with Mel and make shadow babies.

Also that changes the meaning of one of Dany's dreams "a blue-eyed king with red sword in his hand who cast no shadows", I always assumed it was Stannis. But if Jon does the shadow-baby thing - he will also have no shadow, and he already had dreams of red/firey sword in his hand standing on the wall, and blue -eyes might be result of his recovery with Mel's help or some new association from the Others.

[EnergeticCrab]

I think it's possible she could glamour herself into Ygritte and try to take advantage of Jon Snow. I kind of thought maybe she did that with Stannis' wife just because of Stannis' character. Doesn't seem like he'd cheat, but that comment about her bed makes me think he'd be in her bedroom and not his own.

She was trying to get with Davos too. In a couple years she'll be doing his son if she lasts that long.

OH NO! That would be terrible terrible. I think Davo's son is old enough in-show for this to happen at least.

I agree! I can't remember in which book it was, but John had a dream of himself fighting Others with a "burning red sword". While some people speculate that this is lightbringer, I think it's Melisandre. John comments on how she is "fire" (as opposed to "kissed by the fire"), and Vala mentions that sorcery is a "sword without a hilt". I think their allegiance is almost a given in the next book, assuming he's not actually dead of course!

That's a really great idea- I like it.

i was thinking something similar! didnt she make a comment to herself about how her potions/powders are running out? and although her power is stronger at the wall, she is physically becoming weaker b/c of the magic she is doing? in other words, she says her magic is taking its toll on her....iirc.

i'm wondering if maybe she in someway (perhaps unintentionally) sacrifices her life for jons....an unintentional nissa nissa....

though i'm wondering what her "life" really is as she doesn't eat and rarely sleeps, perhaps she is undead or perhaps thats just the price she pays for her power...

Ahhh she might indeed be unMel actually!