Jaime vs. Ser Bold who is the real hero? SPOILER

[ServantOnIce]

Why is Ser Barriston and the other old school Kingsguard members seen as heroes when Jaime did the heroic thing and slay the evil king before he nuked a city?

Someone on Youtube brought this point up, but Jaime is snickered by people in the 7 Kingdoms while Ser Selmy is praised. Ser Jaime actually did the heroic thing and kill and evil mad man while Selmy and those others watched him kill the Starks unjustly.

I understand duty and honour but the realm is in jeopardy when you have a mentally ill king like Aerys II.

In our age Jaime would be a hero and the rest of the six, even Ser Arthur Dayne himself would be seen as cowards and facilitators of tyranny . . . . am I wrong?

Just thinking . .

[Teal'c]

Jaime has done a lot of things I don't approve. Killing Aerys before he burned down the whole city is not one of them.

[Red Raven]

In our day, yes, but "back then, over there" the KG was expected to stand by and defend the king no matter how nutty or destructive the king became. To break that vow makes him untrustworthy in their eyes, no matter how good his reason was, even if they knew the real story.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. Nobody but Jaime knew that he killed Aerys to save the city. So asking, "Why don't people love Jaime for saving the city?" doesn't really work.

2. I know oaths and whatnot keep getting brought up, but that's really what it comes down to. The oaths are to serve the king, not to serve the king unless he's an asshole. People like Ned had more respect for someone like Arthur Dayne who upheld his oath than for someone like Jaime. At face value, it looked like Jaime killed Aerys to help his family gain power, and he killed Aerys when doing so wasn't terribly risky to himself. That's what chafed Ned, I think.

The entire idea of a Kingsguard made up of the most noble knights is a perversion of chivalry, really. Knights are supposed to protect the weak, the helpless, the politically voiceless. Yet the best knights are plucked to serve the most powerful family in the kingdom. A lot of cognitive dissonance going on there.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Ser Jaime never told anyone why he killed Aerys, because of his vows. As a result, everyone and his sister thinks he did it for Tywin, most likely at his behest. As such, Jaime's act was stained by those of Tywin and his men, great and small, during the sack of King's Landing. In light of this, not even those few who may have been predisposed to see the heroism in Jaime's oathbreaking would back him. The whole thing stinks.

[Artos Stark]

Jaime didn't kill Aerys to stop him from burning the city, Jaime didn't kill Aerys for killing the Starks. He killed him because his father wished it. Had he truely been honorable he would have stepped in when the mad king was doing these terrible things.

Barristan stood by his oath and fought and was nearly killed on the trident. He is now doing everything he can to right the wrong of not dying by joining Dany and training her new knights and being his QG.

[Francis Buck]

Jaime.

Barristan's a sixty-some year old puppet that JUST NOW has gotten around to realizing that serving the King, no matter how retarded he may be, is just kinda...well, retarded.

Jaime had the same realization when he was, what, seventeen?

(Yes I realize I am simplifying the hell out of the whole situation, but I like Jaime, so go screw yourselves you honorable bastards. Would you really make a different decision if it was YOUR dad storming the gates?)

[Prince of Dragonstone]

In the world of ASoIaF an oath is an oath is an oath. Your word and your honor is everything to the people of Westeros. Of course we as readers know this is all bull and a lot of these so called honorable men are big ole' hypocrites but the fact remains....Jaime broke the sacred oath of the Kingsguard. They are meant to protect the King at all costs no matter how wicked, feeble or undeserving their King really is. The Kingsguard served men like Maegor the Cruel and Aegon the Unworthy...Aerys the Mad was to be no different. Jaime committed the ultimate crime of being a Kingsguard who killed his King. To the Westerosi that is as bad as it gets. If he were anyone other than Tywin's favorite son he would be openly scorned. Being the Lion of Lannister is the only thing that kept the other nobles from spurning him to his face.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jaime didn't kill Aerys to stop him from burning the city, Jaime didn't kill Aerys for killing the Starks. He killed him because his father wished it. Had he truely been honorable he would have stepped in when the mad king was doing these terrible things.

I think you should reread Jaime's Storm of Swords arc.

[The King in the South]

Both are pretty shoddy "heroes" in my opinion.

[Fire Eater]

Both are pretty shoddy "heroes" in my opinion.

What's wrong with Ser Barristan, he seems an honorable man?

Plus, I agree with Apple Martini's first post.

[Revan Baratheon]

Jaime.

Barristan's a sixty-some year old puppet that JUST NOW has gotten around to realizing that serving the King, no matter how retarded he may

be, is just kinda...well, retarded.

Jaime had the same realization when he was, what, seventeen?

(Yes I realize I am simplifying the hell out of the whole situation, but I like Jaime, so go screw yourselves you honorable bastards. Would you really make a different decision if it was YOUR dad storming the gates?)

He is child murderer and screws his sister and produced abominations.

Just saying.

[Bourne]

They both have many faults, but they are both heroes. That is the only answer.

[Miryana]

Jaime.

Barristan's a sixty-some year old puppet that JUST NOW has gotten around to realizing that serving the King, no matter how retarded he may be, is just kinda...well, retarded.

Jaime had the same realization when he was, what, seventeen?

(Yes I realize I am simplifying the hell out of the whole situation, but I like Jaime, so go screw yourselves you honorable bastards. Would you really make a different decision if it was YOUR dad storming the gates?)

Aren't heroes the people capable of making difficult choices and standing up for the innocent even when it means being inconvenienced or even placing yourself in danger? In that case, we have Jaime's rescue of Brienne versus all the rest of his post-sack career of being self-centred, prioritising Lannister interests and Lannister profit for Lannister crimes, ensuring the Freys are awarded for the Red Wedding, and delegating the Sansa rescue to Brienne while maintaining the lie about Fake Arya and hoping Sansa never shows up because then he'd have to do something as pesky as trying to protect her instead of continuing his Riverlands tour of punishing people who rebelled against the bastard Jaime didn't give a damn about. Jaime hasn't even had a realisation - even now he wants to be honourable in the way his fans praise him for abandoning, by keeping the letter of his oath, and ignores the human suffering he's caused. So we have unrepentant child-crippler Jaime ("he was spying on us! I'm only sorry because Cersei nagged at me!") who abandoned an infant king because of his grandfather's crimes, versus someone like Davos, who decides to save an innocent boy even though it might cost him his life and he hasn't sworn one of the realm's holiest oaths to protect him... yeah, I don't see Jaime as a hero.

Killing Aerys (when it was safe to do so, not before) doesn't give Jaime a pass to start another bloody war by usurping the throne and not caring about being a little more self-disciplined to avoid discovery, because it's more important to screw Cersei under a strange roof and kill the host's son to remove the problem right away instead of considering alternatives that would leave his family and the realm in peace. Jaime also chose to do nothing to even attempt to save his new king, the innocent infant Aegon, because he had his grandfather's blood - we know Ned didn't want Aegon killed, so if he'd gotten there before Tywin Jaime might even have succeeded.

Barristan may not have done much to stop Aerys, but he did exactly as much as Jaime did before Jaime found out about the KL burning plans and Tywin's men entered the city, which is the part people tend to ignore when they make the Barristan/Jaime comparison in order to make Jaime look better. Who knows what he would have done about Aerys in that situation, but I feel pretty sure he would at least have made the attempt to protect Aegon instead of chilling on the throne. And if it's alright to let children be killed because eh, you might be hurt, I hope Jaime defenders won't blame any characters who shrug and step away if we end up getting a situation where Connington wants to kill Tommen and Myrcella. Also, Barristan has not caused the same amount of extra bloodshed by putting a bastard in line for the throne/trying to kill a major lord's child because he'd been caught committing treason/attacking Ned because heaven forbid a Kingsguard focus on protecting his king instead of responding in bloody and excessive manner to the family whose child he tried to kill making a move against his own family.

The YouTube commenter should work on his/her reading comprehension. Jaime was the one who chose to say nothing about the KL burning plan. He watched the Starks killed unjustly, like the rest of the KG, and since then has tried to kill a Stark child himself and participated in the plan to give their lands to Freys and Boltons. He killed Aerys when Tywin's men brutally sacked the city and murdered little Rhaenys and Aegon in a violent and infamous manner. Oh gee, how do the people of Westeros not miraculously realise that Jaime was a noble saint?

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

Aegon was already dead by the time Jaime got to kill Aerys, Gregor and Amory were already inside the red keep. The last loyalists were trying to defend the red keep.

Jaime either had to kill Aerys and save the rest of the city or try to save Aegon and let the city be damned.

@ the topic

Barristan is a huge hypocrite in my eyes, he served Robert for 13 years, also stood guard to Joffrey for a small time,he said nothing when Eddard was imprisoned and then he suddenly realises what a huge mistake he has made by serving "the usurper". He served Robert when serving was safe, then turned his cloak, again.

He is child murderer and screws his sister and produced abominations.

Just saying.

Barristan too, is trying to restore the Targaryens to rule, who have murdered countless children and are generally mad. One can argue that he is doing all for selfish need for being morally correct in the eyes of people and being a man who is to be remembered.

Jaime did what he did to save his beloved and his children.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Neither.

The institution of the Kingsguard is rotten at its core and there is can be something particularly dishonorable of being the bodyguard of the monarch if the monarch is a complete lunatic and asshole and is about to commit mass murder and you do nothing or even protect him and help him.

Jaime killed Aerys when it was convenient and when his father was sacking the city,. I guess that is kind of more heroic than doing nothing when Aerys was going to destroy Kings Landing and he wanted to stop Aerys from destroying the city but still I think calling him a hero might be too simplistic.

Of course when we look at later events, Jaime was screwing his sister giving a false heir to the kingdom and heirs and succession is very often cause of civil wars. As it was. He was close at killing Arya, Robert, he throwed Bran to his death. He killed Neds men. Not heroic at all, the opposite a big asshole really that didn't care for the negative consequences of his actions to others.

When he lost his hand he became better, not a good guy but still better and he did put himself in danger for Brienne.

Overall I would say that Barristan was a better man than Jaime was in his life but in that one event, Jaime was right to try to stop Aerys. Not sure what Barristan would have done.

[Maginor]

Barristan did not turn his cloak again. He was dismissed. The reason he switched to serving Robert in the first place was because that was his duty. He should always serve the king of Westeros. He was wounded at the Trident, and by the time he recovered, Robert was king. I know that others of the Kingsguard interpreted their oath as always serving the Targaryens, but I think Barristan's interpretation was just as right. For him, his oath was about serving Westeros, whoever was King.

I don't see why this has to be a competition between Jaime and Barristan. Both of them have their strengths and weaknesses. It's not like one of them being honorable rules out the other being honorable even though they may have had different views of what was their duty.

Jaime did care about saving King's Landing because he also killed Rossart when he went to light the fuses. We don't know if Barristan would have stopped the burning of King's Landing because he wasn't there. Barristan would probably not have killed Aerys, but Jaime was in a unique situation since Aerys ordered him to kill Tywin.

Whether or not it was right, it was probably a big mistake of Jaime to kill Aerys himself though. He could have stopped the burning, then confined Aerys until someone else reached the Red Keep.

[Ice Turtle]

Speaking of oaths, have anyone any idea why we never hear the exact wording of KG oath?

[Lord_Debaka]

they are both just shades of grey.

Jamie has done a few heroic things, and is trying to do the right things now.

Barry is doing the right thing now, but only realised that serving King Joffrey was wrong AFTER they kicked him out. That's not Honor.

A really honorable man does what is right, no matter the cost. Honestly neither of them have proven that. Jamie is close to that at this time in his arc, but Barristan only does what is right as it serves him. He would have been protecting Joffrey or Tommon right now if they diddnt send him away.

[ServantOnIce]

Good responses everyone. I like both characters and I like Selmy more than Jaime. But as Eddards said on the TV show to Jaime, "You served when serving was safe." Even when Ser Selmy says to Eddard after they see the silent sisters sew up Ser H. of the Vale's corpse, that what the "mad king" did was an attrocity to Eddards' father, you notice Selmy doesn't say, "What the Mad King did was a attrocity to your father and brother." I guess Selmy felt that Brandon coming to King's Landing and threatning a member of the royal family in the heart of the realm was worthy of death.

Again, Brandon was STUPID for that. He should have addressed his greviances with The Mad King and Prince Rheagar in a different way one that would not have cost him his and his father's life.

But Ser Jaime said to Eddard that 500 stood around and did nothing . . that is what should have happened, 500 men should have spoken up and said, "Okay kill the young wolf but not his father and not in this manner, this isn't right Your Grace."

Again, that is the power with having a Absolute Dicatorship, they Absolute Dictator declares what is wrong and what is right.

Ser Jaime was correct to kill King Aerys and save the city or aide his Father, Aerys the II had it coming . . and in a sense it was "justice" for the attrocity of what happened to the Starks . .