Jaime vs. Ser Bold who is the real hero? SPOILER

[Milcov]

Because only Jaime (and now Brienne) know the events surrounding Jaime killing the alchemist and Aerys to save Kings Landing. Really the Kingsguard who died at the ToJ were the ones who held their vows best, so Arthur Dayne is possibly the truest knight of them all. But they're all heroes and I think that's how both Barristan and Jaime will die, in their own POV chapters with their last thoughts being that they died as heroes.

[ServantOnIce]

Ser Meryn, Ser Bold and Ser Jaime were the three baddest members of the late King Roberts' Kingsguard.

Aery's the II King'sguard was outstanding with The White Bull, The Sword of the Moring, Ser Bold, Ser Jaime, man . . that had to be awesome to see . .

Give us a Prequel Movie GRRM!

[Jamie Lannister]

They were both pretty sketchy when it came to Aerys. Barristan did fuck all to curb his rather obvious insanity and wanton cruelty, and Jaime only made his move at the very final moment. Jaime only gets worse, what with having an affair with the queen and offering to "make kingslaying a habit" more than once, while Barristan just sort of rode it out passively until Cersei kicked him out.

Jaime's probably worse in that sense. Barristan's attitude never amounted to more than "I'm just doing my job," while Jaime pushed the boundaries so hard it eventually shoved the entire realm into war.

[Fire and Blood!]

First Aerys was not evil he was insane and isnsane people are not good or bad.

Second I belive Jaime did what he did not as some act of heroism to save the city but it was an act of selfishness to save himself (after all he was going to burn with the rest of the city).

And lastly why so many people blame Aerys for intending to burn the city?What were you going to do in his stead?An enemy army is sacking your city, they will get to you in a few hours and when they do they will kill you.There is no escape.From my point of vew burning the city and taking as many of your enemys as pissible with you is the most logical thng to do.Of course as I said Aerys was insane so there may have been no logic at all behind his actions, but still.

[Milcov]

First Aerys was not evil he was insane and isnsane people are not good or bad.

Second I belive Jaime did what he did not as some act of heroism to save the city but it was an act of selfishness to save himself (after all he was going to burn with the rest of the city).

And lastly why so many people blame Aerys for intending to burn the city?What were you going to do in his stead?An enemy army is sacking your city, they will get to you in a few hours and when they do they will kill you.There is no escape.From my point of vew burning the city and taking as many of your enemys as pissible with you is the most logical thng to do.Of course as I said Aerys was insane so there may have been no logic at all behind his actions, but still.

People blame Aerys because he was going to kill the entire population of Kings Landing. The comparable situation is Brynden Tully, his side had lost and he knew his life was forfeit (though he was offered the NW). Brynden made it as difficult as possible for the enemy and resolved to not surrender. Aerys could have listened to Varys over Pycelle and probably made it very difficult for the Lannister/Rebel horde. If he was truly insane by that point then it's hard to brand him as evil, but if he was instead just akin to Joffrey then he's a monster.

And to your second point I think Jaime genuinely feels aggrieved at how people think of him in relation to Aerys, that's evident from his conversations with Catelyn and Brienne. I think that's sincere from Jaime.

[Fire and Blood!]

People blame Aerys because he was going to kill the entire population of Kings Landing. The comparable situation is Brynden Tully, his side had lost and he knew his life was forfeit (though he was offered the NW). Brynden made it as difficult as possible for the enemy and resolved to not surrender. Aerys could have listened to Varys over Pycelle and probably made it very difficult for the Lannister/Rebel horde. If he was truly insane by that point then it's hard to brand him as evil, but if he was instead just akin to Joffrey then he's a monster.

And to your second point I think Jaime genuinely feels aggrieved at how people think of him in relation to Aerys, that's evident from his conversations with Catelyn and Brienne. I think that's sincere from Jaime.

I agree with you that had Aerys listened to Varys he might have actually won the war if the siege of Kings landing was long enough for the Tyrell army with dornish reinfrorcements to come and lif the siege.But he had already made the wrong decision.

As for Jaime's motives I have no doubt that he is sincere.I just think that he realised that he saved the people with his actions at a later point and used it to convince himself that he is a hero instead of being an oathbraker.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

You can be mad and evil at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. Aerys was the definition of evil, demented and sick. The mental illness doesn't excuse it.

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

First Aerys was not evil he was insane and isnsane people are not good or bad.

Second I belive Jaime did what he did not as some act of heroism to save the city but it was an act of selfishness to save himself (after all he was going to burn with the rest of the city).

And lastly why so many people blame Aerys for intending to burn the city?What were you going to do in his stead?An enemy army is sacking your city, they will get to you in a few hours and when they do they will kill you.There is no escape.From my point of vew burning the city and taking as many of your enemys as pissible with you is the most logical thng to do.Of course as I said Aerys was insane so there may have been no logic at all behind his actions, but still.

WTF? ARe you high?

[Milcov]

I agree with you that had Aerys listened to Varys he might have actually won the war if the siege of Kings landing was long enough for the Tyrell army with dornish reinfrorcements to come and lif the siege.But he had already made the wrong decision.

As for Jaime's motives I have no doubt that he is sincere.I just think that he realised that he saved the people with his actions at a later point and used it to convince himself that he is a hero instead of being an oathbraker.

I was just showing that burning the city was still the wrong course of action. Otherwise Riverrun would be ashes by now.

I disagree, IIRC it was Jaime who'd considered protecting Aerys' wife from Aerys so I think this was just the last straw for Jaime. He clearly had a lot of respect for those he viewed as just and true knights. He seems to have idolised Arthur Dayne and when he meets Brynden Tully he recalls being in awe of him as a youngster, I think he did genuinely think that Aerys had to be stopped. Rhaegar had pretty much assured him that Aerys was going to be removed once the battle of the Trident was over and said something should have been done a long time ago. Jaime saw/heard Aerys abuse/hurt his wife, burn Rickard Stark and kill Brandon and then he heard that he was going to kill the entire population of KL in addition to being ordered to kill his own father. Jaime did what he thought was right.

We see Barristan do something similar when he tells Daenerys that he chose not to aid Viserys because he thought he was dangerously close to Aerys in personality. You may think that Barristan also concocted that story to justify saving his own skin but I think both were sincere in their motives and actions.

[Fire and Blood!]

I was just showing that burning the city was still the wrong course of action. Otherwise Riverrun would be ashes by now.

I disagree, IIRC it was Jaime who'd considered protecting Aerys' wife from Aerys so I think this was just the last straw for Jaime. He clearly had a lot of respect for those he viewed as just and true knights. He seems to have idolised Arthur Dayne and when he meets Brynden Tully he recalls being in awe of him as a youngster, I think he did genuinely think that Aerys had to be stopped. Rhaegar had pretty much assured him that Aerys was going to be removed once the battle of the Trident was over and said something should have been done a long time ago. Jaime saw/heard Aerys abuse/hurt his wife, burn Rickard Stark and kill Brandon and then he heard that he was going to kill the entire population of KL in addition to being ordered to kill his own father. Jaime did what he thought was right.

We see Barristan do something similar when he tells Daenerys that he chose not to aid Viserys because he thought he was dangerously close to Aerys in personality. You may think that Barristan also concocted that story to justify saving his own skin but I think both were sincere in their motives and actions.

You conviced me that Jaime indeed did what he did for the greater good.I was just comparing him with me too much and that is who I am, I do what suits me and find justifications or excuses later.And you are right about Aerys also, he went too far insane or not he had to be stoped.

[jblair]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the role of the Kingsguard. They take their vows not to "protect the King until we disagree with a policy choice." They are guards, and for the sake of their position are not ALLOWED to have opinions on the King's actions. Selmy a coward? You guys are smoking crack. Can you imagine the chaos if our Secret Service routinely took out presidents if they started wars the Service didn't like?

Jaime's actions occurred in the most extreme of circumstances, both in terms of the realm's civil war and the king's increasing madness. Jaime had already observed (and had a bit of a psychological freakout) the crazy king destroying the Starks, and I'm sure thoughts of that informed his actions later. Things were getting to the point of absolute insanity and Aerys' actions were the equivalent of our president deciding to launch nukes at Europe for no reason. The vows are ironclad, and breaking them requires the most extreme situation. This was that situation and no other. You think Aerys was the first king to torture unruly subjects? You think Joff was the first to imprison a treasonous lord?

[Milcov]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the role of the Kingsguard. They take their vows not to "protect the King until we disagree with a policy choice." They are guards, and for the sake of their position are not ALLOWED to have opinions on the King's actions. Selmy a coward? You guys are smoking crack. Can you imagine the chaos if our Secret Service routinely took out presidents if they started wars the Service didn't like?

Jaime's actions occurred in the most extreme of circumstances, both in terms of the realm's civil war and the king's increasing madness. Jaime had already observed (and had a bit of a psychological freakout) the crazy king destroying the Starks, and I'm sure thoughts of that informed his actions later. Things were getting to the point of absolute insanity and Aerys' actions were the equivalent of our president deciding to launch nukes at Europe for no reason. The vows are ironclad, and breaking them requires the most extreme situation. This was that situation and no other. You think Aerys was the first king to torture unruly subjects? You think Joff was the first to imprison a treasonous lord?

Aerys was presumably the first to come within hours of slaughtering his own city in wildfire. He also abused his wife to the point where Jaime contemplated intervening. And I don't think being asked to bring back your own fathers head is a routine job of the Kingsguard. Aerys wasn't a run of the mill despot, he was off the scale in what he did/was planning to do.

[The Frosted King]

The bold is the hero.

The lion is the monster.

He didn't need to kill Aerys once he'd slain Rossart.

Aerys was an old man.

He could've subdued him until the Usurpers gained the city, and it would've lent legitimacy to his actions, for a trial would likely be called by the great lords, and Aerys put to death by those who had grievances against him.

Jaime killing Aerys was Jaime satisfying himself, same as he did for Neds men outside the brothel.

[ServantOnIce]

Aerys was presumably the first to come within hours of slaughtering his own city in wildfire. He also abused his wife to the point where Jaime contemplated intervening. And I don't think being asked to bring back your own fathers head is a routine job of the Kingsguard. Aerys wasn't a run of the mill despot, he was off the scale in what he did/was planning to do.

Exactly, also insane folks may not know right for wrong for themselves, but the rest of us can judge their actions and usually hold the criminal insane in mental institutions for many years or if not the rest of their natural lives. Many corrupt Roman Emperors were assassinated by their bodyguards or the bodyguards were involved in the plot of their demise.

Gotta stand up sometimes . . . why protect the leader of the realm if he's destroying literally destroying the realm? The USSS may not assassinate a President who wants to nuke Europe for no reason, but Congress will cut the purse strings and remove him from office within 24 hours . . and then he would be charged criminally.

I know it is different under an Absolute Dictatorship . . so the sword serves for Congress . . and the Courts . .

[Castel]

He is child murderer and screws his sister and produced abominations.

Just saying.

Abominations? Wow. I hope that was tongue-in-cheek. I personally don't care a fig that he screwed his sister. Him doing so after his sister married the king and so endangering the line of succession by having kids with her, that's another story.

I personally don't think of either of them as heroes.I dislike the term in general. It speaks to a system of absolute morality that I think doesn't belong in a series like this.

Who was better? Honestly it's hard to say. Jaime stopped Aerys from destroying KL and that was a good act that comes before his oath imo. I can't hold it against him. Was he unfairly judged, by my standards yes. But he decided to keep the truth to himself and he reaped the rewards of that decision. In any case I wouldn't have kept him as a KG, even if he did make a great hostage.

As for Barristan,I can't for the life of me figure out what he could have done. The Starks were dead. It was going to happen with or without his consent. And he had sworn an oath, he had to keep to it. Stand up and die or shut up and live. I know which the smarter move was.

Honestly I don't consider either of them heroic really. Jaime gets a ton of crap because he broke an oath, it's weird to people from our society but that's how Westeros works. Those bizarre standards labelled Barristan a hero because to say otherwise would mean that all of the people who had risen against Aerys were traitors, not something you want to say to the winning side.

[Queen Cersei I]

Well, while I can't picture this opinion being too popular with anyone, I'm going to have to venture to say... neither of them.

Jaime is a skilled a charming and brave man with incredible fighting skills. He has done some rather heroic things (killing Aerys, rescuing Brienne) and survived some horrendous experiences (getting his hand chopped off.)


Yet look closer and you see an amoral, selfish man who continues, despite some newfound authorial favoritism, to function by putting his own selfish prerogatives about true morality, then rather half assedly justify this in his mind. His idea that he wanted to be a true, chivalrous knight is disproven by him abandoning all of his knightly ideals the moment the going got tough (after he was publically scorned and rejected for killing Aerys.) A truly heroic man would have held on to his ideals and still strove to do the right thing; Jaime became a selfish, cynical nihilist with a delightful side helping of utter narcissism. (There are no men like me, only me.)


Similarly, his much vaunted love for Cersei which he uses to justify so many bad deeds seems rooted in selfishness too, and, like his knightly ideals, is abandoned as soon as the going gets tough. He "loves" Cersei, but only so long as she lives up to an idealized, ridiculous vision in his head. This vision, weirdly, is not disturbed by pointless cruelty and the maiming of nine year old girls, but is wrecked the moment suspicions of sexual infidelity arise. When Jaime turns away from Cersei, is he really rejecting the evil he has turned to, or is he merely turning away from what he claimed to love, believe in, and fight for the moment the going gets tough and things do not measure up to his own personal idealized vision? Who knows, but the "good" Jaime's opinions, motives, and behavior do not strike me as any more honorable as those of the bad Jaime, it must be said.

Which brings me to the new and (not so) improved Jaime. People say he is “better” now or at least “more likeable”; I say that is simply because the author is clearly making him more so. (Apparently, to be good, everyone must first hate Cersei. And think she’s a whore.) His nasty deeds (being willing to murder an innocent baby) are portrayed as “badass”; or he is presented as doing things out of grim necessity (ordering Jeyne to be murdered if she tries to run), when really there are other options. (I love how Jeyne’s mother is portrayed as PURE EVIL for doing pretty much the same things Jaime, Tywin, and countless others have.)

Ser Bold is a more complex case. Surely no one could be as honorable as this man who has given his whole life to an honorable cause, who lives only to serve? I'd argue that Ser Bold hides behind his code of chivalry and service like a terrorist hides behind his beliefs. Everything he does, he does because he must do-- duty, honor, etc. This allows him to a certain extent to play a role and never accept full responsibility for his actions. Sure, he nurtures doubts about many things—the trident, the Tar kids, etc.—but what has he ever done about these doubts? Nothing. He continues to play a role to which he is suited, in which he knows he will come out the hero. Rather than challenging the issues around him he must know are wrong, he ignores them, continues to go the same way, and struggles with numerous well-founded doubts that never inspire him to make the slightest change.

Seeking out Dany, a turn for the better? True repentance? I’d argue, the way he’s currently going about it, hell no. Rather than trying to figure out his own way, he needs another position of great prominence and dignity where he will be told what to do, and be able to constantly excuse his deeds based on the fact that it was what his king or queen told him to do.

Even worse, he is not giving Dany what she needs. Dany, Targ or not, dragons or no, is still, at the end of the day, just a 15 year old girl. She needs guidance and, in careful measures, truth. Barristan is giving her neither. The vast majority of people claim, “he can’t tell her what she’s not wiling to hear!” I would argue that, in the very least, he could damn well try. It would be dangerous—he would be risking his high position in Dany’s service. It would be a risk. But Dany is strong and, the fact is, this is what she needs right now, even if she doesn’t want it.

But Barristan the bold is apparently not so bold at all when it comes to delivering the truth to those who need to hear it but are reluctant to do so. His refusal to tell Dany the truth, to confront or challenge her, is, imo, a huge part of the reason why she remains quite stagnant and unmoving now. Ser Bold has, at this moment, the chance to break his “duty” in a small but harmless way that could make all the difference and truly help someone. The only issue would be that he would be risking his own high place and job security. And he choses not to. Yet again, Barristan choses to hide behind “his duty and his honor, etc.” rather than do the right thing that the situation demands. And in this case, the situation isn’t really for once all that ambiguous—all he’d be risking would be his own position, and possibly his own neck.

So at the end of the day, great social prominence, good deeds, and incredibly fighting prowess aside, Brienne of Tarth is unbelievably more heroic than these two.

[Ser Lepus]

I'd argue that Ser Bold hides behind his code of chivalry and service like a terrorist hides behind his beliefs. Everything he does, he does because he must do-- duty, honor, etc. This allows him to a certain extent to play a role and never accept full responsibility for his actions. Sure, he nurtures doubts about many things—the trident, the Tar kids, etc.—but what has he ever done about these doubts? Nothing. He continues to play a role to which he is suited, in which he knows he will come out the hero. Rather than challenging the issues around him he must know are wrong, he ignores them, continues to go the same way, and struggles with numerous well-founded doubts that never inspire him to make the slightest change. Seeking out Dany, a turn for the better? True repentance? I’d argue, the way he’s currently going about it, hell no. Rather than trying to figure out his own way, he needs another position of great prominence and dignity where he will be told what to do, and be able to constantly excuse his deeds based on the fact that it was what his king or queen told him to do.

I have never liked how Ser Barristan goes from not confronting king Robert about the planned assassination of Dany (Ned at least refused to take part and left the council) to vowing to give her back her rightful throne. You would think that he should feel enough loyalty for her to try to save her neck, but he shut up...only to run to her the minute Joffrey dismissed him.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

" When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?

"Rossart's," answered Jaime. "

He isn't a hero, just a badass.

[Light a wight tonight]

He is child murderer and screws his sister and produced abominations.

Just saying.

He produced one abomination and a couple of nice kids. Lots of people screwed his sister; what's the big deal?

[Francis Buck]

Hey, I'm not saying that pushing Bran out the window was a good thing. I never said Jaime was a perfect hero of ultimate moral goodness. But at least he makes his own decisions. As I said, I like the character of Jaime. He's a hell of a lot more interesting than Barristan, anyway.

And for the record, I don't consider his relationship with his sister to be "evil" or "sinful". Twisted and fucked up? Sure. But they were both consenting, and for a period of time, they both genuinely were attracted to each other and loved each other. I'm not saying that I'm into it myself, but if a brother and a sister both love each other, and they really, really, want to bang, then in my opinion no one has the right to say that's wrong. Just because it clashes with your own personal belief system, doesn't make it evil.

EDIT: I also agree that neither character fits the description of a true hero. To be honest, the only character so far in the entire series that I would genuinely consider "purely heroic" is Brienne. And I don't know how long that will last. I really don't believe it's possible to be a perfect hero in real life, and I don't think it will happen in ASOIAF either.