Arya in season 2

[protar]

ARYA is whiny? It's the people she's travelling with who are whiny, not her! If anything, she's pissed that everyone else is always teasing her (Lommy/Hot Pie) or talking about yielding. I really don't know where you're getting that impression -- she is the least complaining character out of anyone in the series, imo. And I didn't read your other post, must not have seen it.

Ok, I see now. You're just into the political intrigue.

And I think that your straw man concerning Wendel Manderly is not very good reasoning. Arya basically had the power of a god by having a faceless man being able to kill any three people she wanted, and by not killing Lannisters (ironically, the ones who usually ended her death wish list) events that happened later were able to occur. She could have ordered Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey dead, and have no repurcussions. Wendel couldn't just "push Tywin off the battlements" and go along his merry way...he was a hostage. Arya was unknown, to everyone else a nobody. No one would have suspected her and no one would have been able to trace those deaths back to her. And yes, she realized her mistake. I'd say that her arc is pretty epic. Just because an arc doesn't have political intrigue in it on the level of the shit that happens in the Red Keep doesn't mean it's not integral to the story.

She is whiny though. She always complains about everything and everyone and as you say is always pissed off. Her reasoning might be good but that doesn't prevent her being annoying. Cat has perfectly good reasons to be depressed all the time, but that didn't stop me thinking her moping about was a bit much.

And I'm not just into the political intrigue as I've said plenty of times (though I'd think it odd if that wasn't one of your main reasons for liking the series considering thats it's main feature.), and it's not just that it isn't as integral to the plot as say Tyrion's. I like the politics, magic and characters. Arya's arc in COK had no politics, very little magic (and most of it offscreen.) and few interesting characters in my opinion. I've yet to see anyway coming up with a good argument for why Weese or Chiswyk are compelling characters. Now I do always want interesting characters of course but the plot integrity, politics and magic aren't always neccessary so long as I've got lots of one of the other things to make up for it. So Dany's arc in GOT I liked even though it had hardly any politics or connection to the main plot, because it had a fantasy feel to it and interesting characters. Conversely I disliked Dany's arc in DWD even though it had political intrigue because the characters were flat, and the magic was greatly diminished.

And about Tywin and his continued existance: for me I don't consider Arya not having him killed to be a major affect on the plot. It was an opportunity for her to affect the plot which she didn't take. I think when contemplating this sort of thing a good question to ask yourself would be: "would the plot point have been carried out any differently if the character wasn't there?". In this particular instance, the answer is no.

[Lord Hodor]

So, Arya is both Whiny and a Brat. I must be reading the wrong books.

[Voshed]

I suppose we tend to forget that in the Westrossie world peopel grow up earlier, but after all she is just a little kid. That said and while I love her as a character I feel her stroy line is a little like that drwan you have here you are being chased and no matter how fast or where you run to you can never get away, and after all the running you still haven't gone anywhere. Even in the later books her chapters just feel like she is treading water....more resloution please

[sarah.jenice]

I honestly skipped chapters to stay with Arya because I wanted to know what happened to her. I think they will do her arc justice and cannot wait to see the Ghost in Harrenhall episode. Mid-season sounds right for it.

[protar]

Well who knew Arya could be so popular. Never could have imagined a helpless 10 year old would be popular over characters like Tyrion and Jon. Each to their own. But even George has said that the 5 year gap would have worked best for her, so it's clear even he thought she could do with some gwoing up.

[Vikingkingq]

I also think Arya's a critical character for some of the larger themes in the series - namely, she's the way we see the effect the war has on ordinary people. If you think about the POVs in Clash of Kings: Sansa and Tyrion are both at Joffrey's court, Bran's in Winterfell, Daenerys and Jon are outside the war completely, Theon and Catelyn mostly see the war rooms and battlefields. Arya spends the whole of the book as one of the people facing the brunt of everyone else's actions - seeing Tywin's order to burn the Riverlands with her own eyes, caught up in the fencing between Starks and Lannisters over Harrenhal, etc.

To me, that's what makes her arc so important, and what makes SoS so much more powerful, because Arya is not only experiencing her own family tragedy, but she's standing in for all the family tragedys she's been a witness to.

[King_Baratheon]

Personally I hope they don't give it too much time. It was by far the most boring arc in Clash imo.

Wow, I can't believe how different everyone's reading experiences differ. I thought Arya's arc in Clash was one of the most entertaining! You have to remember that

George is turning her (presumably) into an faceless man/assassin or at least someone with that skill set. She can't just go from Tom-girl noble-child to cold blooded killer. You can tell she had it in her from the get go (her first kill came early), but it's the things she saw and endured on the journey leading up to and including her journey to Bravos.

So what if it doesn't hit the largest plot points on the board; it still is a large part of whats to come...

[Emily Snow]

It's been a while since I read CoK, and while I vaguely remember the gist of the book and it's ending, the Arya chapters are the most vivid and have stuck with me the best. That should say everything that needs to be said.

[Elaena Targaryen]

So, Arya is both Whiny and a Brat. I must be reading the wrong books.

Or maybe we should let them borrow our copies?

Whiny brat is absolutely the last words I would ever use to describe Arya. The fact that some do not think Arya shows any remorse (which it's subtle but she does) about what she ends up doing a few times tells me she does not whine or she would about those choices. Brat look how hard Arya chooses to train at her skills, like water dancing, with all of the horrible things going on around her and to her. Complaining in a whiny bratty way is something she does not do and if this was the book forum I might ask for quotes. If it's something like scrubbing and cleaning HH don't even bother with that BS.

[Independent George]

Well who knew Arya could be so popular. Never could have imagined a helpless 10 year old would be popular over characters like Tyrion and Jon. Each to their own. But even George has said that the 5 year gap would have worked best for her, so it's clear even he thought she could do with some gwoing up.

And until now, I didn't think that anyone disliked her. Arya's chapters are the ones I always look forward to the most, and her arc between COK and SOS are the most harrowing of all. Her story is the first time we witness events from the peasants's eye view, and I found it absolutely frightening in its brutality. 'Whiny' and 'brat' are about the last words I'd use to describe Arya; if anything, her unflinching pragmatism in the face some truly horrifying things is a little too stoic for a ten year old girl.

[Arataniello]

A lot of reaction on both sides here to Arya, it is quite interesting to see such divergent views on her PoV.

Recent comments made by the producers/directors about how this is not strictly an adaptation of aCoK, but is rather the second series of their adaptation of the entire series, makes me wonder if we will see Arya's story on-screen extend beyond its ending in the book. I think however that her

escape from Harrenhal after slitting the guard's throat

is as good a place to stop as any. After that you, her PoV has a couple more travelogue chapters before the next stage in her story.

[dark sister]

Well who knew Arya could be so popular. Never could have imagined a helpless 10 year old would be popular over characters like Tyrion and Jon. Each to their own. But even George has said that the 5 year gap would have worked best for her, so it's clear even he thought she could do with some gwoing up.

I try my hardest to respect other people's opinion and see where they're coming from, but the adjectives you use to describe Arya - such as whiny, bratty, and helpless, are just plain wrong. I'm sorry. It's akin to calling Robert Baratheon a physically weak man in his prime.

Let me just quote a description from the wiki:

Arya displays great resourcefulness, cunning, and an unflinching ability to accept hard necessity.

I find the last part of that sentence especially true of Arya's character: throughout the series, she NEVER complains of her hardships. She may dislike some of the people around her, but I believe that is because they either display petty cruelty, foolishness, and/or lack of survival skills in a world where, to her, survival has become almost everything. I also believe that part of why she and Jon are so close is because they display this same ability to be hardy and fierce in the face of great danger -- Jon, up at and beyond the Wall, and Arya, in the war-torn Riverlands, then in a country where she doesn't know the language and lives with a group deadly assassins who demand everything in order for her to become one of them. Now I won't get into my opinion of whether or not I think it is GOOD that Arya is becoming a FM, but to call her helpless and whiny is simply incorrect.

I can respect your opinion that you just don't enjoy the Arya chapters and prefer other characters, but realize that if you really like Jon as a character, you are unwittingly liking qualities that Arya possesses as well. Also, as a few other people brought up, she is a child. People mature quickly in the Westerosi world/time, yet just because she is a child does not mean that she is a brat. Consider Jon's initial behavior when he arrived at Castle Black with his other recruits, whom he disdained and wanted to annihilate every time he faced them with a sword.

[Scruggy]

Oh, GaaaaaAAAAAAHHHHHHhhhhhhD, I CAN'T WAIT!

[Mendoza]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that

Arya will serve as cupbearer for Tywin before he leaves Harrenhal.

I hope it happens.

[protar]

I try my hardest to respect other people's opinion and see where they're coming from, but the adjectives you use to describe Arya - such as whiny, bratty, and helpless, are just plain wrong. I'm sorry. It's akin to calling Robert Baratheon a physically weak man in his prime.

Let me just quote a description from the wiki:

I find the last part of that sentence especially true of Arya's character: throughout the series, she NEVER complains of her hardships. She may dislike some of the people around her, but I believe that is because they either display petty cruelty, foolishness, and/or lack of survival skills in a world where, to her, survival has become almost everything. I also believe that part of why she and Jon are so close is because they display this same ability to be hardy and fierce in the face of great danger -- Jon, up at and beyond the Wall, and Arya, in the war-torn Riverlands, then in a country where she doesn't know the language and lives with a group deadly assassins who demand everything in order for her to become one of them. Now I won't get into my opinion of whether or not I think it is GOOD that Arya is becoming a FM, but to call her helpless and whiny is simply incorrect.

I can respect your opinion that you just don't enjoy the Arya chapters and prefer other characters, but realize that if you really like Jon as a character, you are unwittingly liking qualities that Arya possesses as well. Also, as a few other people brought up, she is a child. People mature quickly in the Westerosi world/time, yet just because she is a child does not mean that she is a brat. Consider Jon's initial behavior when he arrived at Castle Black with his other recruits, whom he disdained and wanted to annihilate every time he faced them with a sword.

So far as I remember I never actually called Arya bratty, though perhaps you've simply lumped everyone who dislikes Arya into one malignant hivemind? :P. I'll stand by my comment on her being whiny though because I'm sorry, but Arya does whine about things. She whines about Hot Pie being stupid and Gendry being stubborn. Yes complains about Harwin for betraying her to the BWB and complains at the gods for not doing what she wants. Now that doesn't stop her being brave, or impede any of her good characteristics, and her reasons are perfectly justifiable. But I still find it a bit much to cope with. And yeah she's pretty helpless as well. Yes she can kill people if she wants to, but up until recently she's rarely in a position where she can kill people without being killed off herself. She's less helpless now she's in training to become a magical shapeshifting assasin, but I don't know what you'd call her being a captive of Gregor Clegane if not helpless.

And I agree that there are similarities between Jon and Arya. You're exagerating what I've been saying, I don't think she's completely without any good or strong features. They just don't balance out what I don't like about her. And yes Jon is whiny at the start of GOT. He's specifically labelled as sullen. And he was, but he grew out of it. Arya's starting to grow out it too, but in COK certainly I would say she's whiny.

[kephv]

To be fair, her situation was worse than shit in Clash, and being a ten year old girl, there were some legitimate complaints. And yeah, she did appear helpless for a long while during Clash and Storm, but she's always actively striving to improve her situation, fighting when she can. So that was more her just waiting for the right moment to act, so she was never really helpless. That's just smart thinking on her part.

[dark sister]

So far as I remember I never actually called Arya bratty, though perhaps you've simply lumped everyone who dislikes Arya into one malignant hivemind? :P. I'll stand by my comment on her being whiny though because I'm sorry, but Arya does whine about things. She whines about Hot Pie being stupid and Gendry being stubborn. Yes complains about Harwin for betraying her to the BWB and complains at the gods for not doing what she wants. Now that doesn't stop her being brave, or impede any of her good characteristics, and her reasons are perfectly justifiable. But I still find it a bit much to cope with. And yeah she's pretty helpless as well. Yes she can kill people if she wants to, but up until recently she's rarely in a position where she can kill people without being killed off herself. She's less helpless now she's in training to become a magical shapeshifting assasin, but I don't know what you'd call her being a captive of Gregor Clegane if not helpless.

And I agree that there are similarities between Jon and Arya. You're exagerating what I've been saying, I don't think she's completely without any good or strong features. They just don't balance out what I don't like about her. And yes Jon is whiny at the start of GOT. He's specifically labelled as sullen. And he was, but he grew out of it. Arya's starting to grow out it too, but in COK certainly I would say she's whiny.

Ok, I see where you're coming from. And I think I confused your UN with another who DID call Arya bratty *and* whiny. But you called her whiny too.

Anyway, I think that perhaps I (and you?) are focusing too much on word precision here. You call Arya whiny, and I don't think that's the right word. I'm glad you elaborated on the instances where you believe she is whiny, because I would call those scenes something different: she is completely disdainful of Hot Pie. She scorns Lommy's cowardice. She THINKS Gendry is stubborn, but doesn't really complain about it. On the contrary, she likes him, and they rough house in a natural way (some Arya Gendry shippers think differently, and altho it might be cool for them to come together when they're both way old enough, that's beside the point). She doesn't WHINE in front of the heart tree, she becomes angry and accusatory. These are the words I would use to describe Arya, instead of a catch-all term like "whiny".

But aside from all this wordsmithing and arguing about how to describe Arya's behavior, I'd like to say that I appreciate that our argument (debate?) did not go to a vicious level as so many times it does with other users. Thank you for respecting my opinions, as I respect yours. I understand why you dislike Arya's arc in Clash and I'm glad that you see the parallels between Jon and Arya, too.

Unfortunately, and I must bring this up (although I am by no means a feminist) I truly believe that females in this series - and indeed, most any series - get the short end of the stick when it comes to (fan) characterization. Male characters seem to be given endless amounts of slack for their shortcomings (with the curious exception of Ned, by some -- perchance because he acts in a compassionate, almost FEMALE way?). Women, on the other hand, are harshly criticized. Dany with her impotence (heh) in Meereen, Catelyn with her "moping about" (as you and many others have said) when she thinks SHE HAS LOST HER ENTIRE FAMILY, AND ALL THE DIALOGUE IS INTERNAL, Cersei, for being a mad, cruel queen, Sansa for being naive to the point of "stupid"...the list goes on. Tywin and Cersei are very similar in their cruelty, but many people think he is the Ultimate Badass. Sandor Clegane is a brutal, psychopathic, wretched man, yet he has a fan following (for the record, I agree he has his redeeming qualities -- is this patriarchal society working its way on my subconscious, too?) People sympathize with Theon, who butchered and flayed two innocent boys who had NOTHING to do with this war, and then feel oh so sorry when Theon get his wittle fingers fwayed! Imo, Catelyn is as strong as steel, Cersei is evil but certainly cunning, Sansa is the epitome of the Maid, Arya is my favorite character who is just a BAMF, and Dany has an almost overwhelming lineage of heroes which she has to live up to. Why is it that men get all the glory and adoration, and women get shat upon?

Now, I am not saying that you personally feel this way AT ALL -- I am merely commenting on the situation. I feel if we switched Arya with, say, Bran, (in ages as well as genders) people would be praising him to the sky for being so fierce and resilient and cunning.

In conclusion, thank you for your thoughts and I appreciate where you're coming from. To address something that I forgot about, I, too, love the political intrigue. But I also believe that political intrigue, in this series particularly, can be found in high as well as low places (Gregor trying to get info from commoners, Roose and his orders for Duskendale, Dany across the narrow sea, Castle Black). It doesn't all just happen at the Red Keep.

Fin.

Edited to note that the characterization of women is being made by fans of the series, not Martin himself.

[littleayrastark]

I think Arya's storyline will be well served in the series. Mainly because it can focus on the important events that she witnesses and her character development while "trimming the fat" of her long travelogues. Personally I'm really looking forward to Arya's story in season 2 and beyond; and it's been too long since I read CoK to remember if it felt draggy or not.

@Dark Sister. I agree with you about the female characters being held to a different standard than the men. It really isn't George's characterizations but rather fan reactions. This isn't just in ASOIAF, but all of fiction and real life as well. I'm just glad we get such wonderful representations of flawed, complex and interesting women in ASOIAF. They are treated as real and influential characters not just plot devices to keep the story running or love interests for the men in the story. Even Sansa who has more of a typical feminine role is a fully fleshed out character. I think the producers of "Game of Thrones" can really be commended for not diminishing the importance and development of the women in the show.

[dark sister]

@Dark Sister. I agree with you about the female characters being held to a different standard than the men. It really isn't George's characterizations but rather fan reactions. This isn't just in ASOIAF, but all of fiction and real life as well. I'm just glad we get such wonderful representations of flawed, complex and interesting women in ASOIAF. They are treated as real and influential characters not just plot devices to keep the story running or love interests for the men in the story. Even Sansa who has more of a typical feminine role is a fully fleshed out character. I think the producers of "Game of Thrones" can really be commended for not diminishing the importance and development of the women in the show.

Thanks for your comment. I didn't mean to say that GEORGE was characterizing the women that way -- I meant that the fans were. I totally agree with you on that. George is just serving the feast; it's the guests who are saying that certain courses suck.

[gmoney88]

@protar

I find it very interesting that you are surprised Arya is popular.

From my experience with ASOIAF/ GoT fans, Arya is tied with Tyrion for most popular character.

And those two are FAR FAR FAR more popular than any other character.

Just from reading fan sites and talking to people, I'd say Arya and Tyrion are like 5 times more popular than other character.

Jon and Dany are probably tied for 2nd, but don't even come close to Arya/Tyrion.

Maybe I'm wrong, thats just from my experience. Arya is a great character, she's a strong, assertive female that's trapped in a world she doesn't belong in, and has the resources and will to survive and externalize herself even when her life goes to hell. A lot of people can relate to and admire that.