HotU showed the Red Wedding ... or did it?

[tubbletian]

I had never noted the links between many of the prophecies and visions and events that have so far been detailed from my own reads, and relied on the almighty internet to show me those connections, and so have always just taken this to be the RW. But I think that if we look at this prophecy from Dany's perspective, as it was her vision, then we (as Dany) don't know what any of it is.

This is her vision, but Martin is writing, and he’s writing for us, so it's up to us to interpret. If he was trying to convey the RW to us, then he could have given us much more specific details that are undeniably the RW (see any of Apple Martini and TZEs posts above, among many others) and that would not have had any more impact on what Dany would receive from the vision. She still is clueless, and we would be/were at this point too. This then makes the idea of Dany “tripping out” or not remembering irrelevant also, as we aren’t reading Dany’s story from her memories, we are reading Martin’s.

I've successfully been converted to thinking that, no, this was not the RW. If we do see another feast that matches this vision perfectly (I won't repeat the examples) then this would be no different than if the details in the vision were the exact same details Dany noted, and that Martin gave us in the future passage of the RW. We still, at the time of the vision were not aware of what was being foretold, and Martin still had the opportunity to show us the event.

I would gather that if Martin is going to give us prophecies, then he's going to make them specific. Duly noted the idea of a butterfly effect coming into play, and "nothing is set in stone" but we are following one story from beginning to end, why would Martin bother writing in a prophecy, only to then have the story skew off in an alternate storyline ala BttF-2? This isn't reality (or science fiction), it's a novel (not in that it's a fantasy novel); it’s a concise story starting at one point, and ending at a preconceived and planned out ending (or so Martin tells us – one could argue that he writes one page, and then the next and follows his heart or something beautiful and inspiring and single-tear-conjuring like that – but for the sake of this, and the sanity of all of us, lets not). The decisions on page five don't then change what's going to happen on page ten, the decisions Martin writes on page five, are what make page ten happen, so a prophecy that is being shown to this Dany, in this novel, is going to relate to something that is going to happen, in this novel; this is not a pick-a-path adventure. This just brings us to where will it happen?

My personal thought is, should we get to “the end” and we don’t get word or explanation of this part of the vision, and we all join hands and agree that “Hey, I guess that was the RW after all!” and laugh around a campfire, that Martin made a supreme booboo which I don’t believe anyone truly debating this topic above could use as a conceivable answer or argument either.

[Lord Martin]

Fascinating. I still think it was the RW, but this is a fun convo.

If its not Robb, I'd have to think its Jon Snow/Stark. If he is named Robb's heir and is King in the North, the crown makes sense. Also, Jon is a warg and Mel has seen him go from "man to wolf to man again" in her visions. One common theory is that Jon will be trapped inside Ghost for a period of time.

So while the chronology does not match up, perhaps the symbols have meaning:

Crown: Jon will be King in the North, maybe the crown is in fact the old crown of Winter rather than Robb's newly fashioned one.

Head of a wolf: He is a Stark and a warg and will be inside Ghost for a while.

Dead: Well, Jon could be dead or "dead."

Mute appeal: Jon wants Dany to come help him but cannot ask for help. He is mute because of his coma or because he is inside Ghost.

Dead at the feast: Will the Others slaughter everyone at the Wall? I wonder if Mel will be able to protect Jon Snow's body while everyone else gets butchered. Who knows, maybe the attack will occur during a meal.

The plates seem to match up with the plates at the wall.

[carmela28]

Fascinating, indeed. I'm glad that this thread was bumped. If I had to choose, I would say that it is the RW but I can be persauded otherwise.

I have always wondered why was it important/necessary to show the RW to Dany? She would never have any impact on this event; she wouldn't cause it or prevent it. She doesn't recognize any of the participants. It doesn't seem to provide any learning - or foreshadowing - for her. (I don't recall if she even thinks of it again.) Considering the nature of her other visions in the HOTU (Rhaegar/Elia, the blue rose at the wall), the RW seems to be unrelated and irrelevant to her story arc.

Agree with those that say that Jon or Bran could be the "man with wolf's head" that she sees. And, as of ADWD, either one of them seem poised to play a larger role in her destiny that dead Robb would.

[tubbletian]

Mute appeal: Jon wants Dany to come help him but cannot ask for help. He is mute because of his coma or because he is inside Ghost.

And Ghost was the mute of the litter

[Lady Storm]

Why is Dany seeing Starks in general? The wolf-shadow in the tent when MMD does her magic? The wolf-king in HotU? The blue rose (so the Wall or Winterfell, known from the stories for it's most beautiful winter roses?)

if we can figure out the answer to this question, we can know would the wolkf-king be Robb or not.

Now, all by himself, Robb doesn't seem to have any significance to Dany and he probably never will - he's dead, after all. But his actions might. The wedding-killings might mean that Weseros will be ripe for her (fits with the 4 rat-man), it might be a warning what will happen if she tries to marry in one of the important families, it might be what was needed for Jon to become the King in the North, or a number of other things.

A side note: The King in the high chair might not mean the actual event of the RW, rather a symbolic show. The King in the North/Wolf Boy has, out of his innocence (lamb in his hand), behaved in such a manner (so his behavior orchestrated the event) that now his man are slaughters (bodies and parts) and starving (spoons) or with no way to reach the goal they where cose to (the food on the tale). Not really the RW, but still the whole thing that happened.

[slayer420]

I think this is a done deal, too. Whether or not it has anything to do with the vision.

Wendel Manderly is not symbolized by a wolf and is not a king. The KING in the vision is waving the leg of lamb, not any of the guests. A point that has already been made.

Like Tze said, if nothing like the Red Wedding happens again, then yeah this vision probably was the Red Wedding. But in the meantime, saying that it must be the Red Wedding because Wendel Manderly also ate lamb is reach

Saying its not the Red Wedding because of wooden plates and roasted fowl is really reaching to me. I mean we have a king that got his head cut off and a wolf put on it with a crown and thats what dany sees.

also the fowl could just repersent something being fowl and the did kind of "roast" the King.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Tze, who's one of the smartest, most thoughtful posters on here and to whom you should all pay attention, made an incredible observation about the vision of the Red Wedding that Dany sees in the House of the Undying. Namely, that it wasn't the Red Wedding that Dany saw.

Even if this isn't about the Red Wedding, the event was still foretold in other places, namely in Jinglebell's song ("Blood on the fool, blood on the king, blood on the maiden's thigh. But chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye") and by the Ghost of High Heart (Catelyn's death and resurrection and Grey Wind left outside to howl).

To make my own contribution ... in Judeo-Christian mythos, lambs are a symbol of purity and innocence. If this vision does indeed pertain to Bran, might the lamb-leg "scepter" be a symbol of him losing his innocence on his path to being a greenseer? I know several posters subscribe to the idea that Bloodraven's/the Children's motives aren't 100% pure.

Maybe it just has to do with The Greatjon beating people with a lamb leg.

[greygnarl]

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Noticing the important things.

[Night Gathers]

I believe it foreshadowed the Red Wedding.

I don't think the descriptions have to be 100 % accurate, but they have some sort of indication of what to expect. Just because the dishes weren't the same in the two descriptions doesn't mean it isn't the same event. The HotU vision showed a meal where people had been slaughtered, the wolf head with a crown sewn onto a person's body. This simply indicates that a king died during a meal. Just like the Red Wedding. The fact that the crown isn't the same material just indicates that a king was killed.

For now I think it was meant to be the Red Wedding, only time will tell.

[The guy from the Vale]

I believe it foreshadowed the Red Wedding.

I don't think the descriptions have to be 100 % accurate, but they have some sort of indication of what to expect. Just because the dishes weren't the same in the two descriptions doesn't mean it isn't the same event. The HotU vision showed a meal where people had been slaughtered, the wolf head with a crown sewn onto a person's body. This simply indicates that a king died during a meal. Just like the Red Wedding. The fact that the crown isn't the same material just indicates that a king was killed.

For now I think it was meant to be the Red Wedding, only time will tell.

I fully agree. I'm pretty sure the vision really showed the RW. Something else like it might happen, but I doubt it.

Particularly interesting in this regard is Melisandre's thought in ADWD that sometimes, visions don't look exactly like what happens when she reports on the crumbling towers, and when pressed which towers she saw, she says Eastwatch even though she doesn't think they looked like the tower of Eastwatch at all.

[Bride of Winter]

A side note: The King in the high chair might not mean the actual event of the RW, rather a symbolic show. The King in the North/Wolf Boy has, out of his innocence (lamb in his hand), behaved in such a manner (so his behavior orchestrated the event) that now his man are slaughters (bodies and parts) and starving (spoons) or with no way to reach the goal they where cose to (the food on the tale). Not really the RW, but still the whole thing that happened.

I definitely believe that the vision wasn't specifically the Red Wedding and I'd like to believe there's going to be a sort of RW-part-two, but I've heard this analysis before and absolutely adore it (though I've previously only heard "Robb's sitting on the throne overlooking the feast because it's all his fault", so your analysis of the symbols really make it all come together much clearer)

Anyway, if we don't get a scene that better matches the HOTU prophecy by the end of the series, my bets are that Dany's vision was symbolic of exactly what you explained.

[The Other Others]

The Red wedding is a bit obvious for The HotU vision to apply, not sure if anyone else has suggested it but might it be related to the Dreams Jon and Theon have about the feast of the dead in Winterfell?

[moe.]

Man... if the vision that Dany had contained wedding cloaks, or a wedding cake, or musicians, or ANY of the details that were mentioned to be absent that would prove the red wedding... we would all be very disappointed. When we were finally approaching Edmure's wedding, we would be like. well, here it goes. Arya is gonig to walk in to everyone getting slaughtered. Instead are aren't sure what is going to happen. We are thinking Arya may finally get a chance to be reunited with her family.

Im certainly glad it wasn't completely spelled out for us in the prophecy.

Also, I think the idea of it is symbolism. Ok, a deadish man with a wolf's head is sitting on an iron throne. Sounds like a pretty good way of describing robb. The leg of lamb as a sceptor can be all of the people with him under his rule getting slaughtered. hands cut off cus they were defenseless while being slaughtered. I dunno. pretty much spells out the red wedding to me without giving away that there was going to be a "red wedding" before reaching that point in the novels. Its purposely vague. its a prophecy.

I mean, are you taking the fact that rhaegar was looking at her playing the harp and says something (i forget what), and now taking it literally and waiting for that exact moment to happen in the books? WHEN IS DANY GOING TO WALK INTO THE ROOM WITH HIM PLAYING AND SAY THAT TO HER!? And if it finally comes up and he is sitting on a different type of chair would you assume that it cant be the real event? That it must happen again because she decribed him on a chair and he was on a stool?

seems silly.

At the same time, I wont discredit it. Its certainly possible that its referring to a red wedding 2 type thing. and he is silent because hes dead and RW2 is revenge which is why hes on the throne. I dont think so though.

Also (more possible in my mind) that it is Jon. Ghost is mute so that can account for his silence. He may be dead/ ressurected which could explain that. He could be on the throne because he is Rhaegar's son (also explain iron crown). and it would relate to dany.

I just dont think you can use details that are in the prophecy to account for it being or not being anything. You certainly arent looking at the other prophecies that way. (the wave coming into winterfell. thats like saying it didnt happen yet when we know it was the ironborn. lol - i shouldnt say KNOW, haha. we never know)

either way, its a cool way to look at the prohecy. Just nothing is defined.

[ManlessFace]

I was initially inclined to agree with the more basic assumption that this was just a hazy vision of the RW, but after reading through the points being made I came up with this (entirely speculative, but factually founded) alternative:

The King with the Wolf's Head is neither Bran nor Robb, but is Jon, a new Nights King, rather than King in the North. In ADWD there was constant repitition of the phrase "the night's watch takes no part" etc etc, but Jon was taking more and more part in the wars of kings and such as the book progressed. It is certainly a possible next step for his reign as lord commander to progress to Nights King. Whether he's truly dead and rises, by Lady Meilisandre or other unnatural means, spending some time warging around in Ghost, or not dead at all I do not want to speculate, but the insistence of the importance of the word mute used makes me lean heavily toward he and his wolf without a voice. Then, assuming Jon as the new Nights King, the presence of the simple flatware is easy to see. Stannis is constantly trying to marry off anyone of importance he can get his hands on, and we've already had a wedding at the wall, and with Stannis' making his new seat there, it certainly seems likely that another wedding could take place before things really go from bad to worse.

Like I said, completely speculative, but it plays in to Jon's desire to eschew the Lordship and Kingship that were denied by his bastard birth. And, if Jon truly is dead and possibly resurrected by Melisandre, we've already seen the sort of grotesquerie that can play out with the lightning lord and zombie Cat, which could make an even more literal understanding of the Wolfs head king a possibility.

Just throwing that out there.

[kittenmittens]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Interesting analysis, everyone, and if The Red Wedding Part 2 happens a lot closer to this I'll eat my words of course, but for now, I think it is just the Red Wedding it's discussing. Remember, some of what Dany sees in the House of the Undying is literal while other imagery is metaphorical. For example, I don't think the cloth dragon in the streets is literally a representation of a dragon made out of the substance cloth, but a metaphor for Young Griff. Similarly, just because Robb doesn't literally oversee the Red Wedding like Walder does and just because Robb isn't the one who was holding the leg of lamb doesn't mean that those symbols shown juxtaposed with a wolf-headed king (as Robb will literally become postmortem) isn't pointing to the RW.

[ManlessFace]

I'm inclined to agree, as i stated initially; however, I was merely expressing a possibility that occurred to me as I read through the other posts in this thread. It's easy to just assume it is what it appears to be, but my hopes for the splendor of the next books leave me wanting something more from what we already have.

[Reznak mo Reznak]

Strongly disagree... i think its easy to overthink these things, as people who are waiting years for the next book will tend to do.

Using the same line you could say say that Dany's vision of taking Mereen wasn't actually taking Mereen, because int he vision they said mother, while in real life they said 'Mhysa' or some such word, which meant mother. Therefore clearly there will be another scene with crowds of people calling her mother, but inher own tongue.

The RW fits so well, its not going to be shaken by a few minor differences. Robb had a wolf's head sewed to his body... could it be more clear who it was referring to? There are also very small details that were identical. For example, the wolf-headed guy looked at Dany with mute appeal. And right before Catelyn killed Jinglebell he looked at her with mute appeal. The exact same phrase used.

[richard_ba]

Prophecies, in general, can have multiple interpretations, and even its result has multiple outcomes, why you guys stick with the idea that a prophecy is a 1:1 event, for example, I see that "The Dragon must have three heads" as every single event has a tri-faceted aspect or three persons related (i.e.: Cersei imprisonment was Cersei/Margaery/High Sparrow, Tywin's death Tywin/Shae/Tyrion, Bran's van to beyond the wall there is double triple relation, like Bran warging is Bran/Summer/Hodor, and desconsidering simpleton and animals, we have the minds behind it Bran/Meera/Jojeen, Daenerys is the sole example of this her relation to Daario/Hizdahr, but it can also be related to her dragons and even the saviors, TPTWP/AA/LE) however most people on this forums tends to overlook any prophecy and stick with the 1:1 referential view. What if it is not only forecoming the RW, but also its revenge as well.

The wolf king with a lamb scepter, seems so motherly, like "I'm using this mask and this crown to conceal my identity and use this scepter as a sign of what is coming, vengeance."

UnCat fits on this description as well, she is hiding her face under a hood (wolf mask), she is silent and only follow you with her eyes, even though she can crook some words I can see her being described as a mute. Holding a lamb scepter which was pointed out by my fellow mate is indeed a symbol of innocence, but it can also refers to a child, which in this case matches perfectly the idea of a butchered boy king, in this case means she holding something which was his, beside his crown, as it points a symbol of innocence, it can be the only true Robb's thing being held, with crown/wolfshead. I can see a RW2.0, with a mummer's farce, perhaps Catelyn in Riverrun dressed as Robb, with a Wolf mask, a crow and the "lamb scepter", taking the place of an actual fool.

[StarkWhite]

I think there's a lot of over-reading (or reaching). Are all other prophetic events boiled down to that specific detail? Good theory but I disagree.