Initial Impressions on Season 2

[Guest]

Speaking of Ros....I wonder if she's going to be a "major character" like some site suggested :ack: If she is just naked in the background half the show that's fine with me (more than fine), I just hope she keeps her mouth shut as much as possible :)

And thanks for that little bit of (probably unintended) comfort, Ran!

OK - I just touched on this on another topic, but now I have a question. Do you (and others?) dislike the character because of her lines and her acting, or is it just that it feels like HBO inserted this unnecessary character who serves as the nude model type of thing?

Ros has not made the show better in my opinion, but the actress isn't fucking up the role she's been given.

[teemo]

No, I don't have a problem with her lines or acting. If she was a book character I'd probably love her. The actress is sexy and fun and just playing her part. I just feel like they inserted an unnecessary character who serves as a nude model type of thing, like you said. When there's barely enough time to see our characters, it's kind of annoying to have another one added in for no reason. I'm cool with the nudity and the lesbian scenes and all that (at least it served a purpose, that scene), but I think being a major character is a bit too much. Well, there are theories that she may replace other characters' parts. In that case, maybe she will work out.

[The Bastard of Bolton]

I think people mistakenly assume that if there was no Ros HBO would suddenly be able to fit in a half dozen characters in her place.

This wouldn't happen. The screen time she takes actually serves to flesh out existing characters.

Writing her out wouldn't make much more room to add in Edmure, The Blackfish, Reek/Ramsay the Reeds and whomever else we feel cheated out of.

They'd still need to let us discover characters like Petyr, Pycelle, Theon and they'd need to accomplish it in more crafty ways. But there would still be only 10 sixty minute episodes to do it within.

Ros was an easy way to offer exposition and insight on integral characters while maintaining the HBO t&a quota.

[teemo]

Hey, Bastard of Bolton, I thought you were a major Ros hater! :P

But you are right, there wouldn't really be anymore time to add in new characters if she was taken out. Every scene she's been in did have something to do with understanding an important character more. And Ros wasn't the only method they used to do this. All of those one-on-one talks between non-POV characters were made for that. Like Varys & LF, Cersei & Joffrey, etc.

Still, she bugs me. But if she stays as someone who is only in scenes to help viewers further understand characters then it's tolerable. I just hope the writers don't try to make her have a life and story of her own or something. That possibility scares me. I don't like new people in the show :P

[David C. Hunter]

Speaking of Ros....I wonder if she's going to be a "major character" like some site suggested :ack: If she is just naked in the background half the show that's fine with me (more than fine), I just hope she keeps her mouth shut as much as possible :)

And thanks for that little bit of (probably unintended) comfort, Ran!

Agreed on the shut her mouth thing. I think she is sexy, but her mouth annoys me, she just has an annoying look when she's irriatted, but the fact that we see she is actually a spy for Littlfinger, especially in her final scene with Pycelle. It is intriguing to me

[The Bastard of Bolton]

Hey, Bastard of Bolton, I thought you were a major Ros hater! :P

But you are right, there wouldn't really be anymore time to add in new characters if she was taken out. Every scene she's been in did have something to do with understanding an important character more. And Ros wasn't the only method they used to do this. All of those one-on-one talks between non-POV characters were made for that. Like Varys & LF, Cersei & Joffrey, etc.

Still, she bugs me. But if she stays as someone who is only in scenes to help viewers further understand characters then it's tolerable. I just hope the writers don't try to make her have a life and story of her own or something. That possibility scares me. I don't like new people in the show :P

I'm at the acceptance stage I think lol.

I was raging because I did feel like she was replacing characters I'd enjoyed more, but when I thought about it I realized you couldn't add these characters and do them justice.

I'm with you on not wanting them to expand her character. Let her be a vessel for other characters, I guess whores are meant to be used afterall.

I can't see them fleshing out her character beyond how she fits in with the rest of the prominent characters.

I think we are all pretty nervous at this point. This is a major moment for the series and a big indicator on how the scope of ASOIAF will be handle from here on in. We got very lucky and spoiled during the first season considering how good an adaptation it was and how close it kept to the material. The LF thing is cumbersome but I'm sure he will redeem himself, it'll just weaken how cunning he comes off and perhaps make him seem a bit more flayed and human.

[PatrickStormborn]

Littlefinger is one of the main characters in the show, so I assume that the scene has a payoff to conclude his arc.

After all, he gets made the Lord of Harrenhal following the Battle of the Blackwater, giving him his own (fairly) independent power.

[Linda]

That's what many "purists" seem to miss. The show is not a POV based show. Do you really find it shocking that a more 'objective' view of Cersei (for example) would differ from Eddards opinion of Cersei? The show creators can use (and have used) the knowledge of future books to help round out many characters into more believable forms. Cersei in AFFC revealed that she was hopeful that her marriage to Robert could have work out. So why not bring some of those elements forward ?

Cersei's POV, once we got to it, revealed that she had no plans to be Robert's faithful queen. She may have though it wouldn't be so bad, she had a crown and a pretty good-looking husband, but it was clear she did not love him. So, sure, she was hoping it could work out on her terms. Those terms did not include her being in love, that was plain.

The show's view of Cersei doesn't fit Ned's view of Cersei or Cersei's view of Cersei. In this season, this is further stressed, when even some of her actions are given to other characters.

[Ran]

It's very clear that the show's version of Cersei is not that of the series. It's not a precise, careful interpretation, it's a fairly strong re-envisioning of some very basic aspects of the character. She may still do many of the same things, but in some cases her reasons are given quite different motivations. In general her character has been softened and made what one might call "more sympathetic". The harder edge of the character, the narcissism or sociopathy, has been muted.

I think it quite likely that they liked Headey's take on it -- which, one may recall, was completely uninformed by the novels, as she has been adamant about not reading them -- and the role has been adjusted in that light. So, it's a different character in some important aspects. Again, it's not an objective POV thing -- we've got two books in her head, and three books before that showing lots of her deeds and interactions and people's views on her (Ned, Tyrion, Sansa, Jaime, Kevan) -- and that's enough to be able to say that the TV show character and the book character have diverged more strongly than most other characters have to date.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

There is no way for a 10 hour series to be as subtle as certain things as the books. I think I got the feeling throughout S1 that a lot of the scenes didn't get enough chance to breath, only because in my mind I'm comparing them to the same scene in the books.

I think once you stop thinking about the books you'll see that they work for the TV show.

[The hairy bear]

I think it's obvious that Cersei is the main character that has diverged the most when adapted for TV. She has been written as a woman who is desperate to get love, while the book Cersei is incapable of loving anyone but herself.

It's a pity, because I prefer the book version. And I wonder how they are going to justify Cersei's actions in future books.

I guess that if they get to film AFFC they'll make her go mad due to Joffrey's death

[teemo]

Yeah, book Cersei is so much better. There is absolutely no reason to make her more sympathetic. I LOVE BOOK CERSEI! Damnit.

[Linda]

There is no way for a 10 hour series to be as subtle as certain things as the books. I think I got the feeling throughout S1 that a lot of the scenes didn't get enough chance to breath, only because in my mind I'm comparing them to the same scene in the books.

I think once you stop thinking about the books you'll see that they work for the TV show.

Its possible, and it is a valid approach to watching the show. But some of us aren't interested in watching the show that way, or indeed to critique the show from that perspective. As I said, I'd rather have just 1 or 2 really faithful seasons than more that diverge to keep the ratings up.

But that's purely my personal perspective of what I would want as a fan. If I look at the bigger picture, of course I want the series to be as successful as possible. Its good for the books, good for GRRM, etc.

[Tywin's bastard]

Its possible, and it is a valid approach to watching the show. But some of us aren't interested in watching the show that way, or indeed to critique the show from that perspective. As I said, I'd rather have just 1 or 2 really faithful seasons than more that diverge to keep the ratings up.

But that's purely my personal perspective of what I would want as a fan. If I look at the bigger picture, of course I want the series to be as successful as possible. Its good for the books, good for GRRM, etc.

In order to be entertained I think it's the only valid approach. If you look at adaptations of books, and take into account how different books will be harder to adapt, I'd say that the first season actually was really faithful and it's very apparent that the creators really love the source material. If anyone can point me to something comparable that has been adapted more faithfully, I'd be genuinely interested in that.

If you want, and by extension expect, the exact same thing in tv-form then it's impossible not to be disappointed since that's an utopia. Personally I'd choose not to watch at all if that was my mindset since I'd likely get more negatives out of it than positives. I don't need the tv-show because I have good enough imagination to get everything out of the books, I watch it because it's interesting to see how the story functions in another medium, with all the changes it brings.

And I wouldn't say it's fair to say that the show is altered to keep the ratings up. Most changes in season 1 have been due to them needing a new way to tell the story, or just differences in how they view the story compared to some of us, in my view.

[Linda]

Tywin's bastard,

I don't see why it isn't a valid approach to watch an adaptation expecting faithfulness? Yes, I realize it may make it more likely that I'll be disappointed, but I can't see how anyone can say it isn't a valid approach for me to purely have an interest in the show as an adaptation. I watch it to see scenes from the books brought to life. When that doesn't happen, I am disappointed.

Now, when it comes to critiquing the show, I do make allowances for the fact that its a different medium, it has a budget, limited time, etc. Changes that happen due to those circumstances...well, I don't like them, but I won't hang anyone for them, so to speak. Changes that I feel are due to a lack of faith in the patience and intelligence of the TV audience (which ultimately translates to a concern about number of viewers), those I won't be nearly as charitable about.

[Tywin's bastard]

Tywin's bastard,

I don't see why it isn't a valid approach to watch an adaptation expecting faithfulness? Yes, I realize it may make it more likely that I'll be disappointed, but I can't see how anyone can say it isn't a valid approach for me to purely have an interest in the show as an adaptation. I watch it to see scenes from the books brought to life. When that doesn't happen, I am disappointed.

Now, when it comes to critiquing the show, I do make allowances for the fact that its a different medium, it has a budget, limited time, etc. Changes that happen due to those circumstances...well, I don't like them, but I won't hang anyone for them, so to speak. Changes that I feel are due to a lack of faith in the patience and intelligence of the TV audience (which ultimately translates to a concern about number of viewers), those I won't be nearly as charitable about.

You're forgetting part of my sentence. I said I think it's the only valid approach in order to be entertained. Everyone is free to view the show in whatever manner they choose, but if you expects complete faithfulness you will be disappointed since no movie or tv-show (that I know of, and that's comparable) have been more faithful than this. I of course drew a conclusion based on myself in that when I'm disappointed I'm not entertained. Perhaps that's not the case for everyone.

As for specific complaints about season 2, I can't comment on that yet. I'm not reading any reviews before I've seen it for myself. It's a bit interesting that you've found something to be overly simplified, seeing how the first season made GoT one of the hardest shows ever to keep track of for new viewers (luckily for ambitious reasons, not due to bad writing). I'll be intrigued to see if that's an opinion from someone like me, who know the books very well, or if it's something that will transcend to the fresh viewers.

[So1ar]

What did Littlefinger do that was so bad and how is it that we know it isn't somehow manipulating Cersei?

Well...if you want to know.

Littlefinger is walking with Cersei and 4 Lannister guards. She tells him to use whatever resources he has to try and find Arya. I don't remember how but the conversation turns towards her and Jaime and Littlefinger basically lets her know he knows about them. He tells her that knowledge is power. Cersei responds by having her guardsmen hold him down and slit his throat, then she changes her mind and tells them to release him. And Cersei says, "No, power is power." Personally, I didn't really think it was out of character for him. Maybe it would be for the Littlefinger in the books, but this Littlefinger is different. It's like when in the first season he told Vary's that he saw him escorting a "foreign dignitary". I don't think they ruined Littlefinger, but I've only seen the first episode.

[Ran]

So1ar,

Littlefinger and Varys both clearly imply in the novels that they know secrets about one another. Littlefinger's remark about the "dignitary" fits in that pretty well -- they both go out of their way to remind one another that they have a kind of a balance of power between them.

Littlefinger's remark to Cersei doesn't feel in character, given that.

But it's simply not a good scene, regardless. It's a bit of a sledgehammer. No real finesse to it.

[So1ar]

Ran,

Yeah I get where you're coming from. I'll pay more attention to this scene the next time I watch the episode and see how I feel about it then.

[Guest]

The Littlefinger/Cersei scene works for me because

Like with Brandon, Littlefinger gets trumped by brute force, yet again. Its a good motivation to want to strike back at Cersei by killing her son. I also imagine that it fits with Cersei's philosophy on power, as opposed to other characters (from the previews it looks like the characters are debating "what ruling is").

Also, any changes to Cersei's character is welcome. I get really irritated when purists complain that Lena isn't playing her like a seductive maneater. To me it sounds like whining that she's not slutty enough. As if Cersei should be acting like a prostitute with a trick the entire time? C'mon, we've got enough of that with all the brothels going on. I want a realistic character, like a Mary Queen of Scots.