Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[Siziel]

I would rather favour that whoever or whatever provided strength to Rhaegar in Harrenhal betrayed him at the Trident or alternately that Robert himself received some help. The conversation recalled by Jaime in AFfC indicates that Rhaegar was confident he would prevail when he left King's Landing. So he has overestimated his own strength or underestimated Robert's.

What I think is that Rhaegar has already prevailed at the time of the trident.

he Won his war at the TOJ!

what helped him at Harrenal was in order to achive something that was larger than the crown itself, so the trident was for him less important than Harrenal and the TOJ. Even if he died there.

A possible prove of that is in the fact that 3 of the KG, 3 very very very valorous warrior , are left at the TOJ, when even if only one or two of them have fought that battle on the trident along side with their prince and MAYBE he wouldn't be slain by Robert..

but I don't know if it was really possible for members of the KG to fight at the trident. This is something i'm not sure of, maybe some of you know it best..

Anyway, my guess is that Rhaegar was on a mission, and he ended that mission BEFORE the trident.

[oba]

My theory is that whatever glamour was associated with the rubies began to wear off after the long and exhausting fight with Robert. Plus, Robert smashes Rhaegar directly on the breastplate where the rubies are. I do think it's strange that none of the soldiers caught the rubies. I mean if there were a lot of them you would think someone would be able to grasp at least one. The brothers on the Quiet Isle might be waiting for the seventh because it's a mystical number, and also because it might be a signal of some sort or enable them to perform some deed. :dunno:

We don't know that none of the soldiers caught any of the rubies, though. That's another thing that's being assumed into evidence to support that the rubies were magical. Yet Ned doesn't think about it either way. He just remembers that men from both armies were scrabbling for them, not that they were scrabbling successfully or scrabbling unsuccessfully.

[7V3N]

I have brought this up before, but it was left unanswered: What if Rhaegar had a huge discovery and realized that he is AA reborn, Aegon is the PWWP, Lyanna is his Nissa Nissa, and Jon would be Lightbringer. This could explain why Rhaegar took Lyanna and basically ignored the risks it would mean to his own life.

Anyone?

[Bran Vras]

What I think is that Rhaegar has already prevailed at the time of the trident.

he Won his war at the TOJ!

what helped him at Harrenal was in order to achive something that was larger than the crown itself, so the trident was for him less important than Harrenal and the TOJ. Even if he died there.

A possible prove of that is in the fact that 3 of the KG, 3 very very very valorous warrior , are left at the TOJ, when even if only one or two of them have fought that battle on the trident along side with their prince and MAYBE he wouldn't be slain by Robert..

but I don't know if it was really possible for members of the KG to fight at the trident. This is something i'm not sure of, maybe some of you know it best..

Anyway, my guess is that Rhaegar was on a mission, and he ended that mission BEFORE the trident.

Anyone?

We know surprisingly little about Rhaegar after the kidnapping. There is only the conversation recalled by Jaime in AFfC and the fight at the Trident as far as I know. We can't learn more from Jon Connington, since Connington was exiled. We don't even know what happened at King's Landing when Rhaegar came back to take the command of the royal army. What did he tell Elia? What did he tell his father? We might only learn Varys now and perhaps Doran Martell.

[Queen of Spades]

I like this theory of Rhaegar's rubies being magical, but it does have a major flaw :

So far, all the known occurences of magical rubies happened after the return of magic / birth of Dany's dragons.

In Rhaegar's time, magic was almost gone from the world : the alchemists had a hard time making wildfire, there was no undead-epidemic in Westeros nor any burning glass candle, Thoros had no particular power... There are a few mentions of bloodmagic (Maggi), but not much more.

I find it hard to believe that there was enough magic left to produce a glamour capable of protecting Rhaegar through a whole tourney ! :huh:

Aren't we getting a bit paranoid with rubies ? :o

[Jane Doe]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but if Rhaegar's rubies were magical, then how comes that it didn't prevent Robert from strucking him and thus killing him? It was said very specifically he wore the same armor on Trident as in Harrenhal.

I like this theory of Rhaegar's rubies being magical, but it does have a major flaw :

So far, all the known occurences of magical rubies happened after the return of magic / birth of Dany's dragons.

In Rhaegar's time, magic was almost gone from the world : the alchemists had a hard time making wildfire, there was no undead-epidemic in Westeros nor any burning glass candle, Thoros had no particular power... There are a few mentions of bloodmagic (Maggi), but not much more.

I find it hard to believe that there was enough magic left to produce a glamour capable of protecting Rhaegar through a whole tourney ! :huh:

Aren't we getting a bit paranoid with rubies ? :o

Actually, according to Mel before Dany's dragons magic still existed, but it became stronger after the dragons' been born. Also, it's rumored there are still dragons in Asshai where the Red God comes from. So Rhaegar could have got his magic there.

[James Arryn]

Perhaps it's worth to repeat again the argument. Barristan is surely hesitant to praise Rhaegar...

But he's not, though. He specifically DOES praise him.

He objects only to the idea of claiming he was unmatched, and to the idea that he won a significant number of tourneys, and for the latter he specifies that the qualifier was only that RT didn't enter a high number, so winning a high number would have been impossible.

I really think what he's saying is clear. I think your interpretation raises a lot more questions than it answers...if he objects to praising him, why does he...repeatedly? If he's just telling hard truths, why fluff them with words like 'unquestioned'.

His objection is clearly one about hyperbole, and it clearly applies to anyone/everyone.

If you're saying that many little factors go into who wins or loses, that's not a one-edged blade. I can't imagine why you are treating it as such.

As for rigged tourneys, imo that's the kind of construct you only need to make once you've convinced yourself of Point A, that Barristan was suggesting RT's skill was questioned by saying it wasn't.

Unless you think that, there is nothing remarkable about one of the best being the best on a given day, and needs no further explanation/rationalization.

[oba]

But he's not, though. He specifically DOES praise him.

He objects only to the idea of claiming he was unmatched, and to the idea that he won a significant number of tourneys, and for the latter he specifies that the qualifier was only that RT didn't enter a high number, so winning a high number would have been impossible.

I really think what he's saying is clear. I think your interpretation raises a lot more questions than it answers...if he objects to praising him, why does he...repeatedly? If he's just telling hard truths, why fluff them with words like 'unquestioned'.

His objection is clearly one about hyperbole, and it clearly applies to anyone/everyone.

If you're saying that many little factors go into who wins or loses, that's not a one-edged blade. I can't imagine why you are treating it as such.

I posted something similar and I agree with you 100%. I certainly don't see where Barristan's statements to Dany lead to a conclusion that Rhaegar must have needed magical rubies to win the tourney at Harrenhal.

[Elaena Targaryen]

So I thought something different than everyone else I guess, but I thought this was already on the table with talking about Aegon's rubies, so here is what I assumed; I thought that somehow Aegon has specifically Rhaegar's rubies, and I mean from before the battle on the Trident, but after the tournies. If Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PTWP then he could have left the rubies with Aegon as protection and that could end a few ways with Varys in the picture. Varys could have taken them by himself as well or Rhaegar could have even left them for Jon. (and that's what is in the crypts) See where I'm going with this? It may be stretching things even more but I thought all of this was already a possible assumption. I thought it was obvious that if the rubies were in fact magical then Rhaegar did not have them on the Trident. :shrug:

[Elaena Targaryen]

Also I have to say on my first read I did assume Rhaegar was not skillfull in tournament,s or in battle, and I never payed anymore attention to the issue. So I don't think it's far fetched to initially assume this, and it's worth taking a closer look, even if it's not correct. :shrug:

[James Arryn]

I posted something similar and I agree with you 100%. I certainly don't see where Barristan's statements to Dany lead to a conclusion that Rhaegar must have needed magical rubies to win the tourney at Harrenhal.

Cool. I admit the rubies thing is a cool connection, but it just doesn't add up outside of that. Or, if it does, the rubies have been working overtime for a long time. Jousting in Westeros is not unlike pro sports today; the top talents are somewhat recognized long before they step on the court/field...talent is obvious to people who pay attention, and that reveals itself in training, practicing, etc.

You see that referenced several times...Jaime admitting to himself that Loras is elite/gifted (while watching him do something other than tilt) no matter how grudging. People talking about how skilled Hasty was before something happened, without a string of tourney wins to attribute that to, etc. The guys who are super talented are obvious to people in the game, and everyone agrees RT was one of those talents. Even his sole detractor never raises doubts about his skill or whatever, and you;d think if Robert had that kind of water to douse the flame of RT's fame, he would. He certainly seems to still feel the heat.

For RT to be a guy who fluked out some wins with magic and people taking dives and for that NOT to be apparent to anyone who watches him train/tilt/etc...it kinda defies belief.

[oba]

Cool. I admit the rubies thing is a cool connection, but it just doesn't add up outside of that. Or, if it does, the rubies have been working overtime for a long time.

I agree. I'm always leery of theories that require so many assumptions without supporting evidence. We have to assume the rubies were magical in the first place and then try to come up with scenarios that explain the problems and inconsistencies within the story this creates. Why would the magic work at Harrenhal but not on the Trident (except, seemingly, when it comes to trying to pick them up after Rhaegar's chest gets caved in)? Why would Rhaegar decide it's a great idea to have magical protection in a tourney but not in a real battle?

Jousting in Westeros is not unlike pro sports today; the top talents are somewhat recognized long before they step on the court/field...talent is obvious to people who pay attention, and that reveals itself in training, practicing, etc. For RT to be a guy who fluked out some wins with magic and people taking dives and for that NOT to be apparent to anyone who watches him train/tilt/etc...it kinda defies belief.

It would be particularly obvious to someone like Barristan who would have observed Rhaegar's training and practice firsthand. Rhaegar squired in King's Landing, after all.

Instead, Barristan says that Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned and, aside from Harrenhal, says that Rhaegar rode "brilliantly" in a tourney at Storm's End.

[Bran Vras]

Oba and James Arryn, I think you are not fair or not attentive enough in your reading of what I have written.

I have said several times that I don't think Rhaegar was mediocre at jousting and that the point is that Rhaegar couldn't be sure to win at Harrenhal (it's even in the OP, I won't repeat it). Concerning the question of the Trident, see a few post upthread.

Concerning Barristan's hesitancy, I made the point in the OP that Barristan does not want to say unpleasant things to Dany about her family (and there is a quote to prove that). When Dany invites Barristan to praise Rhaegar, he answers "it's not my place to question the words of Prince Viserys", and a succession of sentences that all contain the word "but". Indeed Barristan says that Rhaegar was good, but never that he was the equal of Arthur Dayne. But he could be easily more effusive, that would please Dany, but he isn't. When asked about Rhaegar's prowess in tournament, he acknowledges Rhaegar's valour without superlatives but mainly states the facts.

Anybody is free to interpret the dialog between Barristan and Dany. But recall that it is from Dany's point of view, and Dany wants to hear good things about Rhaegar. Similarly, Cersei did not perceive that the tourney at Lannister was rigged. GRRM is a sometimes a subtle writer, we need sometimes to be subtle readers.

Any idea about the notion that Rhaegar followed a pattern we see among the wildlings when he kidnapped Lyanna? Or about his early devotion to the red god?

[bemused]

Sometimes a ruby is just a ruby.

Barristan tries to answer Dany's questions about her family truthfully, with sensitivity , knowing that what she has heard from her brother has been very one-sided and over the top , more myth than actual history ..but still truthfully. He sees that as his duty, as much as protecting her , even if it sometimes makes him uncomfortable..

ETA : We have no evidence , really , that Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna , except from Robert's version of events , and his pride wouldn't allow him to view it any other way..Ned lets it go by to protect his sister's memory and probably Jon's life. Gradually ,over the five books , it perhaps begins to look more like an elopement...but the victor writes the history.

Any jilted lover feels their rival "stole " their beloved..and in a medieval society, and an engagement with political ramifications , there are complications that could arise if that view was questioned.... There's no reason to leap to connect it to marriage practices that prevail thousands of miles away in a very different culture. Lyanna's blue roses may echo Bael the Bard.. but that was hardly "stealing " a wife in the wildling sense , either , since the " bride" never left home and presumably could have revealed herself at any time.

Of course we need to be subtle readers , I'm sure we're all aware of that..but that will not lead us all to the same conclusions. It's a little insulting that you feel qualified to remind us , as if we're incapable of being subtle ,if we don't agree with you. GRRM writes so intricately and has planted clues all through his work , but not everything that could be connected should be connected. Red herrings abound along with actual clues .

[oba]

Oba and James Arryn, I think you are not fair or not attentive enough in your reading of what I have written.

I apologize if you feel I was being unfair and if I misrepresented your theory in any of my posts, I apologize for that, too, as it certainly wasn't my intention.

Concerning Barristan's hesitancy, I made the point in the OP that Barristan does not want to say unpleasant things to Dany about her family (and there is a quote to prove that). When Dany invites Barristan to praise Rhaegar, he answers "it's not my place to question the words of Prince Viserys", and a succession of sentences that all contain the word "but". Indeed Barristan says that Rhaegar was good, but never that he was the equal of Arthur Dayne. But he could be easily more effusive, that would please Dany, but he isn't. When asked about Rhaegar's prowess in tournament, he acknowledges Rhaegar's valour without superlatives but mainly states the facts.

I agree with you on most of this. As James Arryn pointed out, though, Barristan's response to the very idea of a peerless warrior isn't just a case of his not effusively praising Rhaegar. He dismisses the notion entirely, specifically saying that:

... I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next.

Hence how Jorah Mormont can be unbeatable in the tourney at Lannisport after Greyjoy's Rebellion then never distinguish himself again, with no magical rubies needed.

Anybody is free to interpret the dialog between Barristan and Dany. But recall that it is from Dany's point of view, and Dany wants to hear good things about Rhaegar.

Yes, but the fact that the scene is from Dany's point of view doesn't alter Barristan's actual words. This isn't Sansa later remembering (or "misremembering) a kiss from the Hound that (likely) didn't happen. This is actual dialogue that occurs in Dany's chapters. Nor does the fact that these exchanges take place from Dany's point-of-view seem to prevent Dany from expressing disappointment in the picture that Barristan paints of Rhaegar and exasperation that what he's saying conflicts with what she heard from Viserys.

Dany to Barristan: You make him sound so sour.

Dany to Barristan: But what tourneys did my brother win?

Similarly, Cersei did not perceive that the tourney at Lannister was rigged. GRRM is a sometimes a subtle writer, we need sometimes to be subtle readers.

I'm all for subtlety, but I'm not for assuming that every turn of phrase has to have a double/hidden meaning. Particularly when that really hasn't been the norm in this series, IMO.

Any idea about the notion that Rhaegar followed a pattern we see among the wildlings when he kidnapped Lyanna?

I think that's a very interesting idea.

Or about his early devotion to the red god?

Another interesting idea, but I don't think there's much, if anything in the text itself to support the notion of an early devotion to R'hllor.

[James Arryn]

Meh, Bran Vas...just wrote like a mini essay in response, lost it when the cloud thing crashed as I posted.

I'll repeat the part about apologizing if I've been unfair, as that's easy/necessary. I'll try and recapture some of the other stuff when I get some energy back.

Cheers for now.

Edit: I think Oba has nicely covered some of my points anyways, so the world need not mourn my lost pomposity too much.

:)

[Bran Vras]

Oba and James Arryn, I appreciate both of your replies. We might disagree, but what is important is that we have a good discussion.

(And I don't doubt that Dany reported her conversation with Barristan accurately. It's only that her expectations might cloud her understanding. We see that from time to time in these stories.)

[bemused]

Dany isn't reporting her conversation to anyone , as I recall.. ( but I don't have the book in front of me ) Aren't we experiencing it with her.. at the time ? If she was reporting it to us , wouldn't it be in the first person ? Her expectations and understanding don't need to interfere with ours.

[Uncat]

That is a really interesting point. How is it that Rhaegar was invincible at Harrenhal and was defeated by Robert at the Trident? The question arises independently of what I am suggesting with the rubies. Of course, Robert was a renowned warrior, perhaps not as capable as Barristan and Arthur Dayne were though. Like Barristan, we could attribute to mere chance the diverse outcomes of fighting between knights of comparable valour. But that would not be very interesting.

However, if one believes in the power of the rubies, there might be an explanation (just an idea). Melisandre tells us that her magic is stronger at the Wall, in particular the glamour she makes. There are hints that the castles of the Wall are somehow similar to Harrenhal. Harrenhal is mentioned in Old Nan's story, there was blood in the mortar, beams were made out of weirwood, Harren the Black was the brother of a Lord Commander. Jon mentions also that the castle at the Wall are built from the blood of the brothers at the Night's Watch. So if one believes in the magic of the rubies, the glamour might have been stronger at Harrenhal.

This is just one explanation worthy of consideration. I would rather favour that whoever or whatever provided strength to Rhaegar in Harrenhal betrayed him at the Trident or alternately that Robert himself received some help. The conversation recalled by Jaime in AFfC indicates that Rhaegar was confident he would prevail when he left King's Landing. So he has overestimated his own strength or underestimated Robert's.

Or it is just this: Your a great, you have run, you are invicible. Until the day comes, when you are not. We see this all the time in sports. And if you are a knight and this happens in a tourney, you loose. If it happens in a battle, you die.

[Bran Vras]

Or it is just this: Your a great, you have run, you are invicible. Until the day comes, when you are not. We see this all the time in sports. And if you are a knight and this happens in a tourney, you loose. If it happens in a battle, you die.

It seems that again I have to repeat my point. What happened is entirely possible without magical intervention. There is no need to convince me of that.

But the point is that Rhaegar intended to crown Lyanna and did not want to be subject to chance. We all seem to agree that Rhaegar could not be certain to win under normal circumstances, even if he was among the best. But under my reading of Barristan, he wasn't that much superior to everybody else, and perhaps inferior to some knights like Arthur Dayne and Barristan himself.

Since it seems that victory was of utmost importance, Prince Rhaegar certainly had a good plan to prevail. (Note that my suggestion contains no blame for Rhaegar, despite my "foul play" phrase, that I regret a bit.)