Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[Bran Vras]

In answer to the criticism that the magical nature of the rubies come out of nowhere:

1) Melisandre uses glamor with Mance, and we know that the rubies are the instrument of the magic.

2) In the house of the faceless men, the Kindly Man told Arya

“and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye.

[...]

Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes,

3) There are precedents of sorcery at the Red Keep: the first is Septon Barth, who was once a found by Jaehaerys in the Red Keep's library before he made him Hand. So a bookish young man could very well have come across the same books than Barth. The second is Bloodraven. In the Mystery Knight it seems that Bloodraven used glamor, based on a moonstone (not a ruby). Of course, there might be other ones we never heard about.

It seems to me that the notion that the rubies are sources of glamor is well within the realm of possibility.

Perhaps a close rereading of the Mystery Knight would reveal even more indications.

[Siziel]

There's no evidence and no factual way to show that Rhaegar did use some kind of magic or was into something concearning the Red God, BUT

if we all think about how mighty is the figure of the Targaryen prince, and how foolish seem to be his last actions and decisions.. you have to try to see things trough some other prospective, and I believe that the connection with the red God is an interesting theory.

my personal believe is that this is the focal point in the whole aSoIaF, as I already stated before, so we will find what we are looking for alny at the very end of the plot.

so, no chance to find some kind of proof atthe moement IMO,

[oba]

In answer to the criticism that the magical nature of the rubies come out of nowhere:

1) Melisandre uses glamor with Mance, and we know that the rubies are the instrument of the magic.

2) In the house of the faceless men, the Kindly Man told Arya

3) There are precedents of sorcery at the Red Keep: the first is Septon Barth, who was once a found by Jaehaerys in the Red Keep's library before he made him Hand. So a bookish young man could very well have come across the same books than Barth. The second is Bloodraven. In the Mystery Knight it seems that Bloodraven used glamor, based on a moonstone (not a ruby). So bookish young man could very well have come across, than Barth, who was once found in the Red Keep's library. Of course, there might be other ones we never heard about.

It seems to me that the notion that the rubies are sources of glamor is well within the realm of possibility.

Perhaps a close rereading of the Mystery Knight would reveal even more indications.

Again, you've put forward some extremely interesting ideas. On the flip side, though:

1. In the instances of glamors we've seen in the books, we have yet to see any evidence that the person who's using the glamor/being glamored has acquired any physical traits they didn't possess before. There's no indication that Mance was any stronger or more skilled glamored than he was un-glamored, he just surprises Jon with his strength and skill because Jon thinks he's really fighting Rattleshirt. Ditto Bloodraven as Maynard Plumm. So, how exactly would a glamor have helped Rhaegar win the tourney?

2. Yes, Melisandre's two rubies (the one around her throat and the one on Mance's wrist) are the source of a glamor. Yet, we've also seen tons of non-magical rubies in the story. Rubies, while valuable, aren't exactly dragon's eggs when it comes to rarity. In Book 3, Tyrion pulls out a chain of linked rubies and golden lion's heads. Cersei's mourning dress is encrusted with rubies. The bridal cloak at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding is bordered with rubies. Tywin requests rubies for the swords and scabbards for Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

There's no evidence and no factual way to show that Rhaegar did use some kind of magic or was into something concearning the Red God, BUT if we all think about how mighty is the figure of the Targaryen prince, and how foolish seem to be his last actions and decisions.. you have to try to see things trough some other prospective, and I believe that the connection with the red God is an interesting theory.

I guess I come at it from a different perspective. I don't have a problem with Rhaegar being revealed as having made mistakes or having taken actions that end up having enormously negative consequences he couldn't have foreseen. That's part of what makes a good story, IMO. Heroes with feet of clay, etc. I actually think it adds to the story that Rhaegar, a very learned and skilled man, could nonetheless make his share of errors based on either imperfect information, misinterpretation, misjudging people or situations, or just plain bad luck. It's the type of thing that got me hooked on the series to begin with.

To take it a step further, I think it detracts from the story if all of these seeming errors are later revealed to be just another part of perfect Rhaegar's perfect plan. For example, I like the powerful dramatic irony of Rhaegar knighting the guy who ends up raping Elia and killing Aegon. I don't think the story is improved if we learn that Rhaegar had peered into a crystal ball and seen some important future role for Gregor Clegane to play.

[Siziel]

I think it detracts from the story if all of these seeming errors are later revealed to be just another part of perfect Rhaegar's perfect plan. For example, I like the powerful dramatic irony of Rhaegar knighting the guy who ends up raping Elia and killing Aegon. I don't think the story is improved if we learn that Rhaegar had peered into a crystal ball and seen some important future role for Gregor Clegane to play.

I'm not Trying to suggest that he knew everything and all that happened was part of his plan. just thinking that he had to make choises, and maybe he had to sacrifice a lot in order to achieve something alse that we do not know.

nothing to do with crystal ball and perfect plan.

just "not total dumbness".

siply having a plan or something that he felt he must acheive. even if he failed at that, but knowing that there was a rason for kidanpping lyanna, for example.

even "True love" could be a reason, if you know what I mean..

and Gregor Clegane.. could be a simple mistake!

there are so many things we cannot expaline about Rhaegar behavior that I believe that at least a couple of them must be part of something we have to discover in the future.

[Uncat]

And again this is not about the question, foul play is involved or not. The point is, that this whole assuption of Rheagar is is thin as thin air. The only proof to asume, that magic was used is that magic could have been used, because Rheagar could maybe have had access to magic and because we assume that he may desperatly have wanted a certain outcome. Yes, there is a possibility there, the same way it is possible that the Others are Aliens. But nothing cited here is even a solid hint. As others pointed out these are logical circles made under the assumption, that the "ordinary" explanations are just to ordinary

[Lykos]

@Bran Vras

I think the Mystery Knight does seem like a blue print to your scenario, but somehow that makes it even harder for me to see GRRM repeating it. Nevertheless he put all the elements in there to show us what´s possible, I think.

I´ll propose a slightly different course of action. We know, that the Tourney was probably held to scheme against Aerys II. So it´s possible that Rhaegars opponents let him win on purpose, not by bribery as John the Fiddler/Daemon II Blackfyre did, but because the Knights came from houses that supported the coup or were KG and Rhaegars friend. Here is the list from the Wiki.

• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Lord Yohn Royce
  
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Brandon Stark
  
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Ser Arthur Dayne
  
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Ser Barristan Selmy
  

I think all the smiles turned to ice, as Ned remembers, because Rhaegar didn´t act according to plan, but crowned Lyanna. I´m not shure what he was supposed to do, could he have declared himself Kind there and then, if he hadn´t offended the Baratheons, the Starks and their allies?

As to the glamour, I think it might have been used so that Rhaegar could be the KoLT and defeat 3 minor knights, while someone looking like Rhaegar sat next to the king.

I sympathise with your idea that Rhaegar was an instrument of R´hllor, but I think he didn´t know, if he was.

We know that the Ptwp prophesy became important, when a woods witch, brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones the wife of Duncan the Small Prince of Dragonflies, told Aegon V (Egg) that the Ptwp would come from the line of Aerys II and Rhaella.

The Ghost of High Heart (the woods witch) tells Arya that she gorged on grief at Summerhall and didn´t need Arya´s as well. It´s believed that she is a CotF, she is smaller than Arya with white hair and red eyes. That would make her a Greenseer, unless she changed her eye colour to red, along with the rest of her appearance. The Greenseers are not robust and have short lifes unless they´re "wed" to the Weirwood. I am very suspicious of the Ghost of High Heart.

[Uncat]

In answer to the criticism that the magical nature of the rubies come out of nowhere:

1) Melisandre uses glamor with Mance, and we know that the rubies are the instrument of the magic.

2) In the house of the faceless men, the Kindly Man told Arya

3) There are precedents of sorcery at the Red Keep: the first is Septon Barth, who was once a found by Jaehaerys in the Red Keep's library before he made him Hand. So a bookish young man could very well have come across the same books than Barth. The second is Bloodraven. In the Mystery Knight it seems that Bloodraven used glamor, based on a moonstone (not a ruby). Of course, there might be other ones we never heard about.

It seems to me that the notion that the rubies are sources of glamor is well within the realm of possibility.j

Perhaps a close rereading of the Mystery Knight would reveal even more indications.

Yes it is all withon the realm of the possible. But it does not prove anything. Actually it is rather distracting. The idea, that the toutney at Harrenhall was rigged is a rather big one and does a lot in terms of the plot (southron anbitions, conspiracy to dethrone Aerys etc.).

But this works with or without glamour. So it is absolutly unimportant, if a glamour was in play. This would change completley the secon somebody comes up with a conclusive prove, that a glamour was in play and that that glamour came into play because Rhaegar himself was played by others (no, not Others. Though that would be very well in the realm of the possible to ;)).

But for now we haven't seen an actually strom hint for a glamour which was provided by an interested third party.

All we have seen is tons of weak proves for the faimt possibility that Rhaegar has a chance to come across a glamour as well as many spaculations base on the assuption of a glamour.

As long as this remains this way, this thread will not adwance but cloud the mind for two really interesting questions (plotwise):

If the tourney was rigged, then who rigged it and why? (Lycos made a nice start herr).

rather then speculating about same vague connection with R'hollor the question would be: Which role did uncle Armon play in Rheagars convictions about being or then conciving the PTWP. Aemon was much much better situated to induce this thoughts into young Rhegar then any R'holloristas might have been.

Edit: Sorry for the typos. So hard to write a long post on an iPhone. The editor window is so tiny...

[Bran Vras]

1. In the instances of glamors we've seen in the books, we have yet to see any evidence that the person who's using the glamor/being glamored has acquired any physical traits they didn't possess before. There's no indication that Mance was any stronger or more skilled glamored than he was un-glamored, he just surprises Jon with his strength and skill because Jon thinks he's really fighting Rattleshirt. Ditto Bloodraven as Maynard Plumm. So, how exactly would a glamor have helped Rhaegar win the tourney?

That one is easy (and I think I have addressed it upthread). For winning at jousting, an optical illusion is sufficient (or an hypnotic effect). I don't imagine that Rhaegar became any stronger, faster etc. Similarly, I don't believe that Melisandre's glamor help Mance beat Jon.

2. Yes, Melisandre's two rubies (the one around her throat and the one on Mance's wrist) are the source of a glamor. Yet, we've also seen tons of non-magical rubies in the story. Rubies, while valuable, aren't exactly dragon's eggs when it comes to rarity. In Book 3, Tyrion pulls out a chain of linked rubies and golden lion's heads. Cersei's mourning dress is encrusted with rubies. The bridal cloak at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding is bordered with rubies. Tywin requests rubies for the swords and scabbards for Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

I wouldn't say "tons occurrences". As you note, the Lannisters (Cersei and Tywin mainly) are fond of rubies. I could add Tywin's spectacular helm shaped as a lion's head with ruby eyes. Rubies seem to be common in Qarth. I don't see any reason to suspect the presence of magic there. Outside of that, there are very few occurrences of rubies. Illyrio has rubies on his fingers. Pieces of dried weirwood sap are sometimes said to look like a ruby.

In two more instances, I suspect that some magic is at work: we have discussed Aegon and the Golden Company upthread, and there is a similar scene when Littlefinger hosts the Lords Declarant in the Eyrie. A ruby is set on the Valyrian sword of Lyn Corbray. Against all likehood, Littlefinger prevails against the Lords Declarant.

I am not sure of its significance, but I like to quote the final moment of the life of Qhorin, if only for its literary value:

Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Let's not forget that there is another case of a ruby used for a glamor....

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of

flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore.

Lightbringer...and this is a case where Stannis is probably not aware of the deception.

[Bran Vras]

@Bran Vras

I think the Mystery Knight does seem like a blue print to your scenario, but somehow that makes it even harder for me to see GRRM repeating it. Nevertheless he put all the elements in there to show us what´s possible, I think.

Are you saying that Rhaegar didn't use glamor with the rubies before it is too obvious for the readers of the Mystery Knight?

(Note: I imagined the before I read the Mystery Knight.)

I´ll propose a slightly different course of action. We know, that the Tourney was probably held to scheme against Aerys II. So it´s possible that Rhaegars opponents let him win on purpose, not by bribery as John the Fiddler/Daemon II Blackfyre did, but because the Knights came from houses that supported the coup or were KG and Rhaegars friend. Here is the list from the Wiki.

• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Lord Yohn Royce
  
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Brandon Stark
  
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Ser Arthur Dayne
  
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Ser Barristan Selmy
  

I think all the smiles turned to ice, as Ned remembers, because Rhaegar didn´t act according to plan, but crowned Lyanna. I´m not shure what he was supposed to do, could he have declared himself Kind there and then, if he hadn´t offended the Baratheons, the Starks and their allies?

As to the glamour, I think it might have been used so that Rhaegar could be the KoLT and defeat 3 minor knights, while someone looking like Rhaegar sat next to the king.

I sympathise with your idea that Rhaegar was an instrument of R´hllor, but I think he didn´t know, if he was.

We know that the Ptwp prophesy became important, when a woods witch, brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones the wife of Duncan the Small Prince of Dragonflies, told Aegon V (Egg) that the Ptwp would come from the line of Aerys II and Rhaella.

The Ghost of High Heart (the woods witch) tells Arya that she gorged on grief at Summerhall and didn´t need Arya´s as well. It´s believed that she is a CotF, she is smaller than Arya with white hair and red eyes. That would make her a Greenseer, unless she changed her eye colour to red, along with the rest of her appearance. The Greenseers are not robust and have short lifes unless they´re "wed" to the Weirwood. I am very suspicious of the Ghost of High Heart.

I sympathize with your suggestion. But I have seen no hint that the Great Lords of the Seven Kingdoms intended to depose Aerys in favour of Rhaegar. I think that would have surfaced through Ned Stark, or Hoster Tully, or the Lannisters somehow.

In any case, before Harrenhal, had the Great Lords any reason to complain about Aerys? What motivated the southern ambitions? Both Lady Dustin and Marwyn accuse the maesters of being conspirators. I suppose the plan was to get rid of the dragons, which probably supposed putting an end to the Targaryen dynasty. So why crown Rhaegar?

Yes it is all withon the realm of the possible. But it does not prove anything. Actually it is rather distracting. The idea, that the toutney at Harrenhall was rigged is a rather big one and does a lot in terms of the plot (southron anbitions, conspiracy to dethrone Aerys etc.).

But this works with or without glamour. So it is absolutly unimportant, if a glamour was in play. This would change completley the secon somebody comes up with a conclusive prove, that a glamour was in play and that that glamour came into play because Rhaegar himself was played by others (no, not Others. Though that would be very well in the realm of the possible to ;)).

But for now we haven't seen an actually strom hint for a glamour which was provided by an interested third party.

All we have seen is tons of weak proves for the faimt possibility that Rhaegar has a chance to come across a glamour as well as many spaculations base on the assuption of a glamour.

As long as this remains this way, this thread will not adwance but cloud the mind for two really interesting questions (plotwise):

If the tourney was rigged, then who rigged it and why? (Lycos made a nice start herr).

rather then speculating about same vague connection with R'hollor the question would be: Which role did uncle Armon play in Rheagars convictions about being or then conciving the PTWP. Aemon was much much better situated to induce this thoughts into young Rhegar then any R'holloristas might have been.

I tend to agree with you that the use of glamor to win the tournament is not consequential for the story. It might be a point that GRRM makes about ethics (Rhaegar was an utilitarian, not a deontologist and therefore did not care about the rules of chivalry. What happened to Ned Stard shows that GRRM prefers utilitarians.) But I am wary of presuming of what is good in the interest of the story.

I tried to advance a reason upthread for the importance for Rhaegar of triumphing at Harrenhal. To summarize what has been said by Brashcandy and me: Rhaegar wanted to crown Lyanna, probably to father a child. He had his reasons to follow some ancient northern tradition of which is alive nowadays mainly among the wildlings (possibly also in the north, in some form). Keep in mind that wildling culture possibly testifies of the ancient culture of Westeros before the Andals, or even much before that.

We know that for the wildlings, a man has to earn his woman by stealing her, but that there is taboo against rape (see Ygritte: children born of rape are cursed), and that they don't recognize the right of blood and that they expect their Kings to prevail as fighters (Mance's story). Moreover, Harrenhal might be one of the few places in the south were the old gods have power (see upthread, about the presence of the old gods in the story). So the whole story might have been about having a child legitimate in the eyes of the old gods.

Concerning the early devotion to R'hllor. Rhaegar choose to fight under certain colours in a tournament. The choice of colours is always taken seriously by a knight, especially during a tournament. Rhaegar appears to have been thoughtful, so the choice of the colours red, orange, and gold has to mean something. (I noted the precedent of Aerion, who had chosen precisely this colours.)

In the early posts of the thread, Lummel has expressed concisely why it was natural for Rhaegar to be interested in the Red Religion.

[oba]

That one is easy (and I think I have addressed it upthread). For winning at jousting, an optical illusion is sufficient (or an hypnotic effect).

I don't think the optical illusion explanation makes a whole lot of sense, particularly as it seems to rely completely on reading a double meaning into Ned's thought that "it seemed no lance could touch him" when thinking about Rhaegar at Harrenhal. I'd liken it to reading the description of Jory fighting Jaime's men and jumping to the conclusion that the "red rain" flying from Jory's sword is a hint that he's somehow tied to the Drumms.

I wouldn't say "tons occurrences". As you note, the Lannisters (Cersei and Tywin mainly) are fond of rubies. I could add Tywin's spectacular helm shaped as a lion's head with ruby eyes. Rubies seem to be common in Qarth. I don't see any reason to suspect the presence of magic there. Outside of that, there are very few occurrences of rubies. Illyrio has rubies on his fingers. Pieces of dried weirwood sap are sometimes said to look like a ruby.

No, there are a lot more occurrences of rubies, I just didn't think I needed to list them all to make my point.

Lord Celtigar is rumored to have chests of rubies on Claw Isle. The warrior maids Dany sees at the Eastern Market in Book 1 have rubies in their cheeks. Joffrey's crown is encrusted with rubies. In Book 2, when Dany is in Qarth, the saddles of her honor guard are inlaid with rubies. Xaro's sporting rubies. End of Book 2, Joffrey is wearing a black mantle studded with rubies. When Joffrey accepts oaths of fealty from Mace Tyrell and Garlan Tyrell he presents each of them with a chain of roses with a golden disc with the lion of Lannister picked out in rubies.

In two more instances, I suspect that some magic is at work: we have discussed Aegon and the Golden Company upthread, and there is a similar scene when Littlefinger hosts the Lords Declarant in the Eyrie. A ruby is set on the Valyrian sword of Lyn Corbray. Against all likehood, Littlefinger prevails against the Lords Declarant.

No indication of magic in either case. Littlefinger prevailed in large part because, as is pointed out pretty explicitly afterward, Lyn Corbray was actually on his side. But if the ruby set in Lady Forlorn's hilt is magical, I guess the ruby has traditionally worked about as well as the rubies on Rhaegar's breastplate. It didn't stop Gwayne Corbray from getting cut down by Daemon Blackfyre and it didn't seem to do Lyn's father much good on the Trident.

Now, I think Lightbringer possibly being a glamor is a good catch. That doesn't come close to indicating that ruby automatically equals glamor.

[7V3N]

I sympathize with your suggestion. But I have seen no hint that the Great Lords of the Seven Kingdoms intended to depose Aerys in favour of Rhaegar. I think that would have surfaced through Ned Stark, or Hoster Tully, or the Lannisters somehow.

In any case, before Harrenhal, had the Great Lords any reason to complain about Aerys? What motivated the southern ambitions? Both Lady Dustin and Marwyn accuse the maesters of being conspirators. I suppose the plan was to get rid of the dragons, which probably supposed putting an end to the Targaryen dynasty. So why crown Rhaegar?

He was known as "the Mad King." Whether this was before, or just after Robert won the war, I do not know. But there are hints that Rhaegar might have been ready to unseat his father. Varys told Aerys such (I know, don't trust Varys but maybe it was true?) and Rhaegar told Jaime that he would hold an important council meeting after the Trident. It may not have been a violent rebellion, but perhaps Rhaegar saw the need for a better ruler and saw himself as such and thought to somehow remove his father's real power. It seems to me that Rhaegar was respected by everyone until the Lyanna situation. It is certainly possible.

Why would we not hear about attempts to remove Aerys and force the succession to Rhaegar prematurely from the high lords?:

Lannister: Wanted to pretend they are Robert's most loyal men.

Stark: Rebelled because Rhaegar took Lyanna. Eddard was never to be a lord so he would not be included.

Arryn: It seems to me Jon had a huge plan on overthrowing Aerys. Without him, the rebellion would never have been as huge as it was. He just saw Robert as his king, not Rhaegar.

Tully: Basically, they were bought out by Jon Arryn through marriages and Hoster is dying throughout the books so he could not reveal much (besides LF's bastard).

Tyrell: Mace Tyrell seems too dimwitted to be involved, but maybe the Queen of Thorns was involved in a plan to seat Rhaegar over Aerys. She was involved in Joff's poisoning.

Martell: Elia was married to Rhaegar, so their loyalties to Rhaegar were likely stronger than those to Aerys. However, Doran is not someone who reveals his plans.

Baratheon: No way Robert was involved in any plans. He is too rash and let his warhammer speak for him.

Robert's Rebellion would have halted any plans since the rebels threatened to destroy the entire House Targaryen, not just Aerys.

[Uncat]

As long as you can't proof the actual use, there is no way to rule out the very real possibility, that it was all done without magic. But as this option sees to be ruled out on this threat, I bid you farewell

[Bran Vras]

I don't think the optical illusion explanation makes a whole lot of sense, particularly as it seems to rely completely on reading a double meaning into Ned's thought that "it seemed no lance could touch him" when thinking about Rhaegar at Harrenhal. I'd liken it to reading the description of Jory fighting Jaime's men and jumping to the conclusion that the "red rain" flying from Jory's sword is a hint that he's somehow tied to the Drumms.

No, there are a lot more occurrences of rubies, I just didn't think I needed to list them all to make my point.

Lord Celtigar is rumored to have chests of rubies on Claw Isle. The warrior maids Dany sees at the Eastern Market in Book 1 have rubies in their cheeks. Joffrey's crown is encrusted with rubies. In Book 2, when Dany is in Qarth, the saddles of her honor guard are inlaid with rubies. Xaro's sporting rubies. End of Book 2, Joffrey is wearing a black mantle studded with rubies. When Joffrey accepts oaths of fealty from Mace Tyrell and Garlan Tyrell he presents each of them with a chain of roses with a golden disc with the lion of Lannister picked out in rubies.

I should say that I did my homework before I wrote the OP and looked at all the occurrences of rubies in the book. It confirms what I said upthread. Besides what I mentioned (Qarth rubies, Lannister rubies, Illyrio rubies, Melisandre rubies), the rumours about Lord Celtigar, the rubies of the Eastern Market in Vaes Dothrak, and the rumoured rubies that Euron brought from his travels, there is nothing else. But that might not be that important.

Concerning the power of glamor, I have said it already upthread: I would prefer the rubies to have an hypnotic effect (i.e. effect over the mind) rather than being mere optical illusion (mere effect on light). But the optical illusion angle is quite compatible with what the kindly man told Arya. However, I have no definite theory, beyond the idea that not much is necessary to help at jousting.

When I quoted the Kindly Man upthread, I added a second sentence:

Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes,

It can be an hint of why the glamor did not work on the Trident (another suggestion has been mentioned by Brashcandy upthread). I might be that somehow Robert had sharp eyes, or that somebody was there to have sharp eyes for him. In any case, it points to the limit of the power of glamor (and another example of a same trick not working a second time with GRRM).

No indication of magic in either case. Littlefinger prevailed in large part because, as is pointed out pretty explicitly afterward, Lyn Corbray was actually on his side. But if the ruby set in Lady Forlorn's hilt is magical, I guess the ruby has traditionally worked about as well as the rubies on Rhaegar's breastplate. It didn't stop Gwayne Corbray from getting cut down by Daemon Blackfyre and it didn't seem to do Lyn's father much good on the Trident.

I must say that I have not looked in depth at the conversation at the Eyrie (I am quite busy with another set of theories that will appear soon). But for me the ruby is a signal of something. In particular, if Mance's ruby is the mean by which he is controlled by Melisandre, the questions arises of whether Stannis' ruby is a mean for Melisandre to have power over him. More interesting even, is Melisandre herself controlled by a greater power? (Same question with Aegon and Lyn Corbray.)

We don't know for how long the ruby has been set on Lady Forlorn. It could be recent. After all, Longclaw, Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail have all been "redecorated" recently.

[Bran Vras]

Lannister: Wanted to pretend they are Robert's most loyal men.

Stark: Rebelled because Rhaegar took Lyanna. Eddard was never to be a lord so he would not be included.

Arryn: It seems to me Jon had a huge plan on overthrowing Aerys. Without him, the rebellion would never have been as huge as it was. He just saw Robert as his king, not Rhaegar.

Tully: Basically, they were bought out by Jon Arryn through marriages and Hoster is dying throughout the books so he could not reveal much (besides LF's bastard).

Tyrell: Mace Tyrell seems too dimwitted to be involved, but maybe the Queen of Thorns was involved in a plan to seat Rhaegar over Aerys. She was involved in Joff's poisoning.

Martell: Elia was married to Rhaegar, so their loyalties to Rhaegar were likely stronger than those to Aerys. However, Doran is not someone who reveals his plans.

Baratheon: No way Robert was involved in any plans. He is too rash and let his warhammer speak for him.

I if understand well, the conspiracy was orchestrated by Jon Arryn, and Robert was Arryn's puppet. I must say that I am intrigued be the notion. It would be nice to have some support for it from the text. There is a sign of Arryn's importance during Robert's reign, when Arryn went to Dorne, talked to Doran Martell to put an halt to the brewing Dornish rebellion.

[koststerg]

To expand on the last posting, the following ideas are a way that the things happening to Reagar could be explained without the involvment of magic

The problem

In all the history of how Lyanna fell in love with Reagar and got pregnant there are a few problems. Reagar seems completely irresponsible in abducting her first towards his father, then to his wife, to Lyanna and to the realm, and rather out of character since he is described by all as a sensible, altruistic and careful person and not as a hot-headed or lustful guy. I also find completely heartless the idea that he did it in order to “breed” with the she-wolf, fulfill the prophesy and have the AA-PtwP son. At the same time it is difficult to believe that Lyanna would abandon her family and ran away in love with a married guy just after briefly meeting him. The syndrome of Stockholm seems rather strange too. Finally, there is the problem of the time frame. The two of them have talked too few times, have spent too little time together in Harrenhal to make a meaningful feeling realistic. And also when did the “abduction” happened? There are huge holes in the R+L story and many things don’t make much sense.

Reagar’s coup

Barristan remembers that:

“The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight ... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty ...”

Varys does not lie, he just manipulates the truth. He would never go to the king to accuse his son of basically treason without some pretty good-looking evidence. But more than that in this text I think we have the opinion of Barristan himself on the matter. Notice the first frase. There was something that Reagar entrusted to Arthur but not to him. The rest of the text seems at the first look to explain it but in reality it does not. We don’t learn what was that thing that he did not entrust to Barristan (maybe a plan for a coup??). The open way that Barristan deals with Varys’ accusations indicates that they are close to what he thinks has happened or else he would have denied them strongly.

So let’s go back at Harrenhal and suppose that the coup is real. Reagar has summoned all the big families there to discuss about setting aside his father but his father’s arrival destroys everything. Desperate he sings the song of ice and fire (his own personal motivation for changing things in the realm ) - which moves Lyanna strongly - and sends the others the message that there will be a second secret meeting.

The second meeting happens and the leaders of the families (among them Richard Stark with his daughter who refuses stubbornly to return home) hear him telling them that he will not only replace his father and change things for the better but that he is also the father of AA and that they all need to work together to prepare the realm for the imminent threat that will destroy their world as they know it! I wouldn’t be surprised if he even sung them the song again. As you would expect everybody freaks out. They realize that they might be replacing the Mad king with an even Madder king and they flatly refuse to support him.

Shocked by their refusal (as any ideologist who’s ideas cruse with reality) he departs for his feel-depresed-palace Summerhal - tower of Joy leaving them to the madness of his father.

However, Lyanna has also heard him. She has grown up with Old Nuns stories about the Others, she has lived closer to the wall and knows better the threats beyond, she loved the song the first time and she owns her life already to the singer (for not revealing her at Harenhal) plus she is more romantic and adventurous that her Southern-ambitious father. She runs away to Reagar with her horse and her sword and pledges her loyalty (and not her love yet, although she might already be in love with him).

He accepts her , thanks her and he asks her to return to her father but she refuses and he lets her stay at the ToJ. He has decided to remove himself from the politics of the kingdom and he asks from his father to send him his wife and children but the King holds them as hostages. Rejected by his lords and by his father and deprived of his family and his son, the depressed Reagar finds sympathy, support and probably love from Lyanna (and Jon is conceived : ) ).

The Stark family probably doesn’t know where Lyanna went at the beginning. But even if they knew, the funny thing is that her father cannot openly call for her return because he would have to describe where he lost her and what he was doing there! Consider that when he finally makes his advance to King’s Landing (maybe because he learns she is pregnant) he is tortured and kill by the king not because he insulted Reagar but because he is actually a traitor (which shows the King with a slightly better light than what we thought until now)!

Then later at the trident Reagar is faced with the people that rejected him and accuse him of abduction in order to defend a father that has treated him as a traitor and held his family hostage

Finally, if Lyanna accepted the PtwP cause as her own it is possible that it was she in her dying bed how asked for Bengen to join the night watch.

So what do you think? Is a second meeting possible? Who took part? Was Robert there?

[Lykos]

Are you saying that Rhaegar didn't use glamor with the rubies before it is too obvious for the readers of the Mystery Knight?

(Note: I imagined the before I read the Mystery Knight.)

My post is saying that, but actually my scenario is much more like the Mystery Knight, than the one you´re sugesting, so it doesn´t make sense. The important point, I wanted to make, is that GRRM showed us in the Mystery Knight what is possible and probable in Westeros, and I think he will use/has used it in the story. Only it will not be in the exact same way.

Another hint that the tournament was probably rigged is that Robert Baratheon had a drinking game with Richard Lonmouth, one of Rhaegar´s squires.

I sympathize with your suggestion. But I have seen no hint that the Great Lords of the Seven Kingdoms intended to depose Aerys in favour of Rhaegar.

The Shadow Fox has answered this. It is not my idea, but it´s a theory I came across in many threads and I think it´s very plausible. I was thinking of the Defiance of Duskendale and Tywins ambitons to marry Cersei to Rhaegar and there were some hints given by Illyrio in Tyrion II ADwD, I think. And I don´t think that putting Robert on the iron throne, was Jon Arryn´s original plan. But when he saw the chance, I think, he grasped the opportunity gladly. And note, I´m shure the Lannisters were part of the "Southron Ambittions" conspiracy, but Tywin wanted to rule through Rhaegar. That´s why Tywin stood idly by until Rhaegar died.

It would of course be a funny twist, if Tywin mistook Rhaegar´s display of "Rh´llor´s colours" earlier, as a sign that Rhaegar was suporting House Lannister, and acted on false premises.

Btw, I think that rubies are most commonly found in Quarth is a big hint towards their magical potential. I don´t think that all the jewellery we see, means that their owners are connected to Rh´llor, when I see someone connected to Asshai trying to influence this person however, I´m pretty shure they are.

Edit for corrections.

[oba]

Btw, I think that rubies are most commonly found in Quarth is a big hint towards their magical potential. I don´t think that all the jewellery we see, means that their owners are connected to Rh´llor, when I see someone connected to Asshai trying to influence this person however, I´m pretty shure they are.

That's very well said.

In challenging the notion of Rhaegar's rubies, the Corbray's Valyrian longsword, et al. being magical, I'm not dismissing the entire notion of rubies as source of glamor.

Why I think the notion of Lightbringer being a glamor makes sense is because there's actually quite a bit to support it.

1. Strong likelihood that the source of the ruby in Lightbringer's pommel is Melisandre.

2. The sword displaying the properties that it does and that these properties seem to be stronger when Stannis is at the Wall. This goes along with Mel saying she's more powerful at the Wall, too.

3. Stannis' claim that, on the Blackwater, the sword didn't serve him any better than ordinary steel fits with what we've seen of other glamors in the books. That is, it's an illusion that doesn't confer any other special properties.

That sort of "evidence" really doesn't exist with the other examples of supposedly magical rubies being cited. Now, it might prove to be the case, but we've really seen no indication that Rhaegar's armor displayed any magical qualities. Same thing with Corbray's sword. In fact, the addition of magical qualities in both of these instances actually raise more questions than they answer, which is not the case with Lightbringer being a glamor.

[Frey Pie]

I find it very interesting to think there may have been Westeros lords councils to depose Aerys and Harrenhal may indeed have been one.As to a second one we have a pov from Ned.He wasnt lord then but he soon became one and was one of the leaders of the rebellion.Plus he grew up as Jon Arryns son.I dont think he would have been ignorant of such plans and i think it a stretch to think that such an event would not have been mentioned by Ned at some time in his head-when Roberts raging at Rhaegar,when the council votes on Dany,when hes in the dungeon and his thoughts turn to Rhaegar etc

Also as to why Robert was able to defear Rhaegar i doubt its to do with sharp eyes.Its a battle.Nothing says Rhaegar hadnt suffered hits before the tide of battle swept them together.A broken ruby or the armour around it could damage the glamour.Also if its an illusion ie slightly moves Rhaegars true body position then Roberts wide swings with his warhammer will negate these effects.Thers no mystery here.

[koststerg]

Frey pie now that I think of it you have a point. :) My best argument is that Ned was not with Rickard at the time and that Rickard was killed imidiatelly after that and did not have time to inform Ned. I think this could be plausible. Now, why Lord Arryn didn't know or didn;t say anything about it, that is more difficult to answer. Maybe he didn't like the Targarians at all and he had decided that Robert should be the next king from the begining, or maybe he believed that if this particular delail of the rebelion was reveled it would make them seem less victimised to the public or that the honorable Ned would be less willing to revont against Reagar if he know about it.