Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[Greymoon]

This was mentioned by another poster in a thread about religion; and I concur: it’s possible that the lord of light was one of many gods/deities in the Valyrian pantheon - before the Targaryens came to Westeros and adopted the faith of the seven. We know that R'hllor (like the Targaryens) came from the East; and that R'hllor (like the Targaryens) is heavily associated to fire/fire cult.

Either way; first on to the similarities:

Besides the obvious "cult of fire" (heavily simplified since the elements in general are sacred to the Zoroastrians; and they do not in fact worship fire at all); one could see similarities between Ahura Mazda and R'hllor: Ahura Mazda is the spirit of light/purity/wisdom and truth; his direct opposite, Angra Mainyu reigns at night and stands for falseness, lies, chaos (again this is heavily simplified). The dualism between Ahura Mazda (or the concept of Spenta Mayniu) and Angra Mainyu is found in the red religion - as a dualism between light/dark, truth/lies, order/chaos, R'hllor/the great other. As Melisandre says: "the night is dark and full of terrors."

Another similitude is found in the term Magi - which, is the name the Dothraki and other eastern population use to refer to MMD, a red priestess.

Magi (/ˈmeɪdʒaɪ/; Latin plural of magus; Ancient Greek: μάγος magos; Old Persian: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%90%8E%B6%F0%90%8E%A6%F0%90%8E%A2%F0%90%8F%81' title="wikt:"> maguš, Persian: مُغ‎ mogh; English: singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean; Kurdish: manji) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BC, to denote followers of Zurvanism or Zoroaster. The earliest known usage of the word Magi is in the trilingual inscription written by Darius the Great, known as the Behistun Inscription.

The Histories is a primary source of information on the early period of the Achaemenid era (648–330 BCE), in particular with respect to the role of the Magi. According to Herodotus i.101, the Magi were the sixth tribe of the Medians (until the unification of the Persian empire under Cyrus the Great, all Iranians were referred to as "Mede" or "Mada" by the peoples of the Ancient World), who appear to have been the priestly caste of the Mesopotamian-influenced branch of Zoroastrianism today known as Zurvanism, and who wielded considerable influence at the courts of the Median emperors.

Back to the point:

Over the centuries it’s entirely possible for a single deity from a polytheist religion to have been raised above all others; thus creating a new monotheist faith. If there is a bridge to be build between Zoroastrianism and R'hllor's religion, this seems likely. I think it's been confirmed the GRRM found inspiration for the red religion in Zoroastrianism - though I might be mistaken.

Zoroastrianism /ˌzɒroʊˈæstriənɪzəm/, also called Zarathustraism, Mazdaism and Magianism, is an ancient Iranian religion and a religious philosophy. It was once the state religion of the Achaemenid, Parthian, and Sasanian empires. [...]

Zoroastrianism arose in the eastern region of the ancient Persian Empire, when the religious philosopher Zoroaster, simplified the pantheon of early Iranian gods into two opposing forces: Ahura Mazda (Illuminating Wisdom) and Angra Mainyu (Destructive Spirit) in the 7th century BCE.

Zoroaster's ideas led to a formal religion bearing his name by about the 6th century BCE and have influenced other later religions including Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity and Islam.

"simplified the pantheon" seems the important factor, here.

All this to say that it’s entirely possible that Rhaegar was a follower of the Red God, though most likely because of his Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry. However, we cannot be certain of this either way, because red/orange/gold are the colors of fire - an element associated both to R'hllor and the Targaryens themselves. That said, I really wouldn't put it past Rhaegar to revive his ancestors' faith.

P.S.: all sources stem from Wikipedia, because I couldn't be bothered to go through the encyclopaedia iranica; and wiki makes things easier. Anyone interested may look up the information here: http://www.iranicaonline.org

[the demon reach]

MMD was not a red priest she was a follower of the great Sheppard of the lamb people. Also if the Targaryens and valyaria worshipped The red god then why was Theros of Myr on a converting mission and by extension why is the red religion not more powerful on Westeros and Essos. If the old empire or targaryens believed in r'hillor then the old gods and the 7 would have been wiped out or at least clashed with and we would have heard of it. Valyria or at least the Targs held no gods by the sounds of things, I find it more likely that if he worshipped the red god he got it from a priest like Theros.. .

[Greymoon]

Zoroastrianism was the predominant religion in Iran until Islam took over. The Persian Empire was one of the greatest world empires to have existed. Just like the Valyrian stronghold was one of the most powerful in Essos. Stating that the faith of the seven wouldn't have taken root in Westeros, is like saying that we should logically all be Zoroastrians; because it is older than Judaism, Christianity and Islam and was the “state religion” of the Achaemenids, whose empire extended from Egypt to India.

Yet Zoroastrians have been heavily persecuted for centuries, and have suffered forced conversions, so it's not at all surprising that there's so few of them today. IMO, The Valyrian culture was lost in great part with the doom, though I do believe that it is mentioned/hinted at somewhere that they did have a polytheist faith.

[the demon reach]

But Aegon would not have been so open handed with the faith had he worshipped the red god. Or At least it should have a presence in Westeros but it does not.

[Greymoon]

Aegon launched his invasion "roughly a century after the doom." A lot can happen in a century. Aegon himself might or might not have held to a particular faith but that says nothing about his own politics regarding the faith of others. Darius the great is famous for having taken on foreign titles and having declared himself king in the light of foreign gods.

In the lands that were conquered by his empire, Darius followed the same Achaemenid tolerance that Cyrus had shown and later Achaemenid emperors would show. He supported faiths and religions that were "alien" as long as the adherents were submissive and peaceable, sometimes giving them grants from his treasury for their purposes. He had funded the restoration of the Israelite temple which had originally been decreed by Cyrus the Great, presented favour towards Greek cults which can be seen in his letter to Gadatas, and supported Elamite priests. He had also observed Egyptian religious rites related to kingship and had built the temple for the Egyptian god, Amun.

The policies of Cyrus with respect to treatment of minority religions are well documented in Babylonian texts as well as Jewish sources and the historians accounts. Cyrus had a general policy of religious tolerance throughout his vast empire. Whether this was a new policy or the continuation of policies followed by the Babylonians and Assyrians (as Lester Grabbe maintains) is disputed. He brought peace to the Babylonians and is said to have kept his army away from the temples and restored the statues of the Babylonian gods to their sanctuaries.

[the demon reach]

But that begs the question why change faiths? Why would Aegon the Conqueror someone who made no alliances and had no need of Westerosi culture switch to the 7 both publically and based on what we have seen privately as well it makes no sense to change all of your practices that way without explanation.

[Greymoon]

MMD was not a red priest she was a follower of the great Sheppard of the lamb people. Also if the Targaryens and valyaria worshipped The red god then why was Theros of Myr on a converting mission and by extension why is the red religion not more powerful on Westeros and Essos. If the old empire or targaryens believed in r'hillor then the old gods and the 7 would have been wiped out or at least clashed with and we would have heard of it. Valyria or at least the Targs held no gods by the sounds of things, I find it more likely that if he worshipped the red god he got it from a priest like Theros.. .

I always took that to be a Dothraki metaphor (a mockery even) to describe "slaves" - IMO the great shepherd referred to R'hllor (Great Shepherd is not his name; no more than the Good Shepherd is Jesus's name) and they (the slaves) are considered like sheep/lamb (innocent/stupid/obedient) by the Dothraki.

@ your last post: I never said Aegon himself was a follower of R’hllor, only that R’hllor could have been one God among others in Valyria – before the doom. What happens after that is anyone’s guess. But it’s possible that while R’hllor existed in the context of a Valyrian pantheon, R’hllorism (as a monotheist faith) only developed in Essos after the doom – in which case the Targaryens on Dragonstone would not have held unto it (R’hllorism). They might for a time have held unto their many gods (whichever these were) and eventually converted to the Seven by the time Aegon launched his conquest.

And to answer the question of why the Targaryens would convert:

The faith of the Seven also came from Essos, so Valyrians might have been in contact with it beforehand;

Valyrians might, like the Braavosis, have shown a general openness as far as religious cult goes.

The Targaryens on Dragonstone were a minority; a few people holding onto a different faith.

The Valyrian faith might have been unattractive compared to the faith of the seven (too severe; too restrictive etc.)

Granted this is speculation, but it seems to me that something or other should help build a more concrete link between R’hllorism; Targaryens; dragons and Valyria. I can’t help but think that there is something linking them all together; besides their association to fire.

[the demon reach]

Ser barristan in a sample chapter speaks of the red lamb a former follower of the Sheppard and a knight in training. Barristan would know the difference between the red god and the faith of his knights if their was one so we must assume there is. Not to mention the red lamb speaks of the Sheppard as its own deity

[Greymoon]

Ser barristan in a sample chapter speaks of the red lamb a former follower of the Sheppard and a knight in training. Barristan would know the difference between the red god and the faith of his knights if their was one so we must assume there is. Not to mention the red lamb speaks of the Sheppard as its own deity

Alright. I'm too lazy to look it up now, and I bow to you for MMD. But the rest, I'll stand by for now. ;)

[the demon reach]

Your theory seems sound I just don't see how the gems are a glamour he might have seen a raillery prophecy though though its more likely from that woman with the dragon dreams back in the time of valayria

[Greymoon]

Your theory seems sound I just don't see how the gems are a glamour he might have seen a raillery prophecy though though its more likely from that woman with the dragon dreams back in the time of valayria

I'm not sure about the gems/glamour myself to be honest, nor about anything pertaining to Rhaegar. Still, him being a follower of R'hllor, does deserve some investigation...

Back to the Valyrian Pantheon - it's been posted on this very thread actually. Aegon's dragons were named after Valyrian gods. Meraxes, Vhagar and Balerion. That's three old Valyrian gods we know of - I'd forgotten about that detail.

Only speculation, but since there were 14 volcanoes in Valyria (the Fourteen Fires), it could make sense for there to have been 14 Gods. Religious Cosmology is usually inspired by what one observes in the environment...

14 happens to be 7 times 2; 7 is an important number in Christian faith and its double, 14, implies spiritual perfection, apparently. (7 is also important to the faith of the seven).

13 of the names carried by Targaryen dragons sound foreign : Arrax; Balerion; Caraxes; Meleys; Meraxes; Morguhl; Shrykos; Syrax, Tessarion; Vermax; Vermithor; Vhagar; Urrax (that one is a legend?) - If Aegon's dragons are not the only ones to have been named after old Valyrian gods, there's a big chance that we know most of these gods already.

If the name of these 13 dragons = names of old Valyrian Gods, we’d reach the number fourteen by adding R’hllor to that list.

[the demon reach]

Ok new theory what if the dragons themselves are gods to old valayria similar to weirwoods and the starks, it fits and explains why the red priesthood suddenly care about dany if they are connected.

[the demon reach]

and if they are which provided what we saw of the red citadel says they are what Euron Is doing also requires examining. He has a dragon controlling horn known to the red priests, which is now being escorted by a red priest and it is being taken to dragons. After hearing in the red citadel how important the dragons are. It is my belief that euron plans to give the red priests the dragons or agreed to in exchange for westerns.

[the demon reach]

If dragons are the end game maybe dany will end up as a figure for rihillors priests which would give her the means to get to Westeros but put her on a grey area, Maybe that's what we are missing. The targs do not need to be believers or special to rihillor but the dragons rely on valyrian blood in its purest form to be controlled with the greatest effect, the PTTWP AA aren't humans with swords but ones that can awaken and control dragons which is why they care, the dragon are their magic and their weapon in the long night not the humans .

[Dagda]

Zoroastrianism was the predominant religion in Iran until Islam took over. The Persian Empire was one of the greatest world empires to have existed. Just like the Valyrian stronghold was one of the most powerful in Essos. Stating that the faith of the seven wouldn't have taken root in Westeros, is like saying that we should logically all be Zoroastrians; because it is older than Judaism, Christianity and Islam and was the “state religion” of the Achaemenids, whose empire extended from Egypt to India.

Yet Zoroastrians have been heavily persecuted for centuries, and have suffered forced conversions, so it's not at all surprising that there's so few of them today. IMO, The Valyrian culture was lost in great part with the doom, though I do believe that it is mentioned/hinted at somewhere that they did have a polytheist faith.

Interesting concept. This is ignoring the fact that the Zoroastrians were the polar opposite of Vedic beliefs; Zoroastrian gods are Vedic daemons, and Vedic gods were Zoroastrian daemons. Maybe the same situation occurred with the Valyrians and the Asshai.

[Greymoon]

Interesting concept. This is ignoring the fact that the Zoroastrians were the polar opposite of Vedic beliefs; Zoroastrian gods are Vedic daemons, and Vedic gods were Zoroastrian daemons. Maybe the same situation occurred with the Valyrians and the Asshai.

I don't know that it is as simple as that and that Vedism and Zoroastrianism ever were polar opposites. It seems that both Vedism and Zoroastrianism have the same Proto-Indo-Iranian origin.... Some Vedic texts are very similar, if not entirely identical to passages in the Avesta, for ex....and some scholars argue that they both are essentially the same thing.

Either way - I'm no scholar, so it's not for me to question the origins of Zoroastrianism, or whether it was or not the opposite of the Vedic faith. I only took Zoroastrianism because it originated from a polytheist faith; because it is easy to see it as inspiration for the red R'hllor religion; and because it is easy to compare old Valyria to ancient Persia...Post Zarathustra, Ahura Mazda became a supreme being, an idea that was reinforced through the policies of Darius the Great... so in brief the argument I was making goes like this:

If we start at: Old Valyria = Achaemenid Empire; Zoroastrianism = R'hllor and take that comparison further (with heavy simplification) we have:

Ancient Iranian Pantheon >> Zarathustra >> Monotheist faith >> State religion >> Islamization >> marginalization >> further conversions.

Old Valyrian Pantheon >> Prophet? >> R'hllor faith >> conversion of Dragon Lords >> Doom >> marginalization >> Seven-ization of Targaryens.

I don't wish to go any further with the analogy, it was an example of what can happen in history that may transform a formerly polytheist faith into a monotheist one, prevent the spreading of a certain religion and/or cause its marginalization. Another religion could be used for the analogy, maybe?

One could speculate that a "Proto-Assho-Valyrian" religion existed at some point, before the Doom (has GRRM thought that far back?) and that R'hllor was both an Asshai-i and a Valyrian God; and that the Asshai-i and Valyrian religions were like what Zoroastrianism is to Vedism... was that your suggestion? It seems there’s a lot of “unknown” here though, even if we only speak in terms of Zoroastrianism and Vedism...

[Dagda]

I don't know that it is as simple as that and that Vedism and Zoroastrianism ever were polar opposites. It seems that both Vedism and Zoroastrianism have the same Proto-Indo-Iranian origin.... Some Vedic texts are very similar, if not entirely identical to passages in the Avesta, for ex....and some scholars argue that they both are essentially the same thing.

Either way - I'm no scholar, so it's not for me to question the origins of Zoroastrianism, or whether it was or not the opposite of the Vedic faith. I only took Zoroastrianism because it originated from a polytheist faith; because it is easy to see it as inspiration for the red R'hllor religion; and because it is easy to compare old Valyria to ancient Persia...Post Zarathustra, Ahura Mazda became a supreme being, an idea that was reinforced through the policies of Darius the Great... so in brief the argument I was making goes like this:

If we start at: Old Valyria = Achaemenid Empire; Zoroastrianism = R'hllor and take that comparison further (with heavy simplification) we have:

Ancient Iranian Pantheon >> Zarathustra >> Monotheist faith >> State religion >> Islamization >> marginalization >> further conversions.

Old Valyrian Pantheon >> Prophet? >> R'hllor faith >> conversion of Dragon Lords >> Doom >> marginalization >> Seven-ization of Targaryens.

I don't wish to go any further with the analogy, it was an example of what can happen in history that may transform a formerly polytheist faith into a monotheist one, prevent the spreading of a certain religion and/or cause its marginalization. Another religion could be used for the analogy, maybe?

One could speculate that a "Proto-Assho-Valyrian" religion existed at some point, before the Doom (has GRRM thought that far back?) and that R'hllor was both an Asshai-i and a Valyrian God; and that the Asshai-i and Valyrian religions were like what Zoroastrianism is to Vedism... was that your suggestion? It seems there’s a lot of “unknown” here though, even if we only speak in terms of Zoroastrianism and Vedism...

Gezz man, send me some wine before you send all that! :p my head hurts.

Actually, all I was pointing out with the Vedic/Zoroastrian comparison is that two regions could turn one basic religious concept on it's head, so that R'hllor could be the Asshai hero, yet demonic anti- hero of Valyrians. Religions get confused and it's sometimes hard to trace base ideas, so I agree with your premise, just that R'hllor as a Valyrian God maybe tricky.

Interesting that the one Eastros city with the most Valyrian blood would have R'llor as it's ( seeming ) largest religion.