Rhaegar Targaryen: Early passion for the Lord of Light, Foul Play at Harrenhal, The Spearwife Princess

[7V3N]

I never connected Rhaegar's rubies to the glamour. You could really be on to something with that.

[No True Lady]

I'd like to toss in my two cents regarding Rhaegar's possible obsession with Azor Ahai. I think it makes sense because of his confirmed obsession with the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy. But let's consider one of the visions Dany had in the House of the Undying (Clash of Kings). She saw Rhaegar holding the newborn Aegon and telling Elia the baby was TPWWP.

So I think the real questions here are: 1) Why did Rhaegar change his mind and "decide" his son was TPWWP and not himself and 2) why did he even care about TPWWP/Azor Ahai in the first place?

[Frey Pie]

I'd like to toss in my two cents regarding Rhaegar's possible obsession with Azor Ahai. I think it makes sense because of his confirmed obsession with the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy. But let's consider one of the visions Dany had in the House of the Undying (Clash of Kings). She saw Rhaegar holding the newborn Aegon and telling Elia the baby was TPWWP.

So I think the real questions here are: 1) Why did Rhaegar change his mind and "decide" his son was TPWWP and not himself and 2) why did he even care about TPWWP/Azor Ahai in the first place?

Well question2 could surely be answered by an association with the Red God whose followers seem to have a degree of prophetic knowledge.As for question2perhaps he knew that the time wasnt right.Or that his bloodline alone was not what was needed to fulfill the prophecy

[Ashen Shugar]

Yes she got a facefull of hot Dragonbreath, and her face is burned. Later, on her walk through the Dotraki Sea, there is a line about her healing skin. An there also is a SSM on the fireproof thing: Neither Danny nor any other Targ is fireproof. It was just a certain constallation of events and the blood magic involved, that allowed her to climb the pyre. (This is all discussed fervently on the Dragontamer thread and the theory, that Quentin actually survived his encounter with the dragons)

Edit: Actually it is right there in the quote: Hot enough to blister her skin. I.e. it was hot enaugh and blistered her skin which in the last chapter is just healing from that burn.

The only mention of her being burnt is on her hands "cracked palms" to be more specific, there is no mention of her feeling any discomfort on her face. Otherwise she compares the incident to the pyre: "The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same at Daznak's Pit." I think the burns from her hand are either from Drogons blood or as someone else pointed out in the dragontamer thread, from the spear she pulled out of his back, which his blood had heated up.

Also in the SSM Martin wasn't willing to commit to a definite "it's never happening again". There is also the fact that people were dying in the pit, similar to the pyre so perhaps(almost definitely) the "blood and fire" words are more than just a refference to power and destruction and the death(s) in the pit was enough for another episode of blood magic. And I'm not sure but probably several years passed between when mrtin said that and completed ADwD.

Anyway don't wanna take this off topic further, I always love reading Bran Vras' ideas. I'd be happy to discuss it with you further somewhere else, however I have already stated all the evidence I see for her not being burnt. :)

So yeah, if Thoros was in KL, which I think he was there to try to convert Aerys, no? Then there is a good chance that he succeeded with Rhaegar where he failed with Aerys. Do we know if Thoros was there when Rhaegar was young and decided he must be a knight? It would be kinda funny if the least devout red priest was the one to get closest to the PtwP.

[SirReberalPalsey]

the idea of the kidnapping stirs up some solid ideas. 1) jons claim to the throne is totally valid among the wildlings, lyanna was rhegars wife by kidnapping. 2) ned stark was raised along with robert baratheon in the vale. exactly how drasticly his sensibilties differ from the north growing up in a sothron court. they have only been contrasted with roose bolton and greatjon umber. 3) the proximity of the wildlings to certain hilltribes and the northmen closer to the wall may lead to similarities in culture and relations among the leaders. i wouldntt be surprised to find northerners attitudes far more forgiving of the circumstances.

[Lummel]

So I think the real questions here are: 1) Why did Rhaegar change his mind and "decide" his son was TPWWP and not himself and 2) why did he even care about TPWWP/Azor Ahai in the first place?

With number two we are told that he was born about the time of the Summerhall disaster, liked to visit the ruins in later years and was very bookish. If you are researching Summerhall then you are going to be running into questions about dragons, the purpose and role of house targaryen and the prophecies of aenar targaryen very quickly. Looking for other books or maesters to explain or expand on Aenar Targaryen would have led him to the Azor Ahai business as it seems to have some overlaps - enough that Melisandre believes that the two prophecies are dealing with the same thing in any case.

As to question 1, prophecies are obscure and difficult to understand, we can only speculate because GRRM only tells us tiny snipets about these prophecies, but maybe something happened - or didn't happen or maybe he thought that he had been mistaken about how he had read the prohecy previously. We see we Melisandre that she is desperately searching to understand her visions. Maybe Rhaegar was just as uncertain.

[Uncat]

The only mention of her being burnt is on her hands "cracked palms" to be more specific, there is no mention of her feeling any discomfort on her face. Otherwise she compares the incident to the pyre: "The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same at Daznak's Pit." I think the burns from her hand are either from Drogons blood or as someone else pointed out in the dragontamer thread, from the spear she pulled out of his back, which his blood had heated up.

Also in the SSM Martin wasn't willing to commit to a definite "it's never happening again". There is also the fact that people were dying in the pit, similar to the pyre so perhaps(almost definitely) the "blood and fire" words are more than just a refference to power and destruction and the death(s) in the pit was enough for another episode of blood magic. And I'm not sure but probably several years passed between when mrtin said that and completed ADwD.

Anyway don't wanna take this off topic further, I always love reading Bran Vras' ideas. I'd be happy to discuss it with you further somewhere else, however I have already stated all the evidence I see for her not being burnt. :)

So yeah, if Thoros was in KL, which I think he was there to try to convert Aerys, no? Then there is a good chance that he succeeded with Rhaegar where he failed with Aerys. Do we know if Thoros was there when Rhaegar was young and decided he must be a knight? It would be kinda funny if the least devout red priest was the one to get closest to the PtwP.

Yupp, you are right about the burns in the last ADWD chapter. Sorry for this, had to write from memory and memory is one bitch to write from :) And you are right, too, about the SSM not excluding futur events. But actually I had no intention to go OT dive into the whole "how fireproof does one have to be to be fire proof and are the Targs fire proof" debate. This war was fought on other threats and in some points the outcome is still uncertain.

I was going for the connection unburned and great vs. burned and mad. Even being old, the SSM gives ground enough to assume, that non of the Targs was fire proof the way Danny was on the pyre and thena maybe again in the pit. The Targs are in them selfs a crazy bunch driven by a prophecy and their dragon dream (talking about the litteral dreams such as the one, Daeron tells Duncan or such as those Danny experiences in her sleep). I would rather see it this way: When ever a Targ becomes to obsessed with dragons and prophecies, he lightens up in madness.

This would really fit for Reagar. It seems to me, that he was a very gifted man nd he would have had the brains and leadership talents to make a great king. But on the same time he was already going deeper and deeper down that dragon and PTWP road which in a decade or two would have ended madness had he not brought down his house and lost life and throne. And Danny in here starts to show some signs of madness, too, in the way she identifies with her dragons.

On the whole magic thing

So, yeah, partially I'm going along with Bran Vras but I think, that he is reading to much into this, trying to make a case. As with young Aegon, there is absolutly no need for magic here. In the way of the story, it is very possible to rigg the tourney without magic. Rhaegar may alos have started training later then others but not so late that it made Barristan wonder. Later but as Barristan tells us, he was very gifted and what he did he did well. Barristan does never deny, that Rheagar was very, very good. He just says, that even if you are the best the outcome is never certain. So I suppose you would not need much rigging to get a very good tourney rider to win the thing. And from a story telling point of view it means overdoing it, too. If you have a gifted knight like Rheagar you don't need to slip in some magic rubies. Sometimes a ruby is just a nice, shining stone, a phrase like "no lance could touch him" is just a way to emphazise that the day was his and he had a real run and some times the troubled dreams of and old, fat king are just that: troubled dreams. Rheagar changed Roberts life very deeply by taking Lyanna from him and Robert could not stand this. This in turn made him hate Rheagar so deeply that he would only be contented if he could literally erase Rheagar from the memories of all people. He can't do that so he kepps stuck in his last fight. No magic there, just a man hounted by memories.

So yeah, if Thoros was in KL, which I think he was there to try to convert Aerys, no? Then there is a good chance that he succeeded with Rhaegar where he failed with Aerys. Do we know if Thoros was there when Rhaegar was young and decided he must be a knight? It would be kinda funny if the least devout red priest was the one to get closest to the PtwP.

I can't recall any hints on Thoros having been there but I can't rule it out, too. But what I always thought to be interesting is, that old uncle Aemon, too, was aboard with the idea of Rheagar being the PTWP. It may even have been him who inspired the thought to Rheagar and set him on that path. May be it wasn't something in his scrolls that ticked of the boy Rheagar to think that he had to be a hero but a letter from uncle Aemon sitting on the wall with to much time to think..

[Siziel]

What I do really think is that Rhaegar saw something in the flames that drastically changed all his plans.

we knew that he initially tought that HE was the PtwP, but in Dany's vision he address his son as the PtwP, and he seems to knew that he need one more son.

he could have discovered something so important that even Robert's rebellion was not enought to stop his plan.

he knew that he MUST have another son and maybe that the mother was meant to be Lyanna. no matter how hight the price was ( a colossal war and his death), no matter what it took (winning the harrenal tourney and crown her..)

anyway, what Rhaegar discovered is the key for the whole Asoiaf, in my opinion. and I think that no one else in the realms have understood it yet. the only one who may know it could probably be Howland Reed. but i'm not sure.

samobody, soon or later will understand, but who?

Mel I think. o Dany, but actually she is too much into other business.. (sadly)

who else?

p.s. sorry for a couple of mistakes.

not my lenguage..

[Bran Vras]

What I do really think is that Rhaegar saw something in the flames that drastically changed all his plans. we knew that he initially tought that HE was the PtwP, but in Dany's vision he address his son as the PtwP, and he seems to knew that he need one more son. he could have discovered something so important that even Robert's rebellion was not enought to stop his plan. he knew that he MUST have another son and maybe that the mother was meant to be Lyanna. no matter how hight the price was ( a colossal war and his death), no matter what it took (winning the harrenal tourney and crown her..) anyway, what Rhaegar discovered is the key for the whole Asoiaf, in my opinion. and I think that no one else in the realms have understood it yet. the only one who may know it could probably be Howland Reed. but i'm not sure. samobody, soon or later will understand, but who? Mel I think. o Dany, but actually she is too much into other business.. (sadly) who else? p.s. sorry for a couple of mistakes. not my lenguage..

With number two we are told that he was born about the time of the Summerhall disaster, liked to visit the ruins in later years and was very bookish. If you are researching Summerhall then you are going to be running into questions about dragons, the purpose and role of house targaryen and the prophecies of aenar targaryen very quickly. Looking for other books or maesters to explain or expand on Aenar Targaryen would have led him to the Azor Ahai business as it seems to have some overlaps - enough that Melisandre believes that the two prophecies are dealing with the same thing in any case. As to question 1, prophecies are obscure and difficult to understand, we can only speculate because GRRM only tells us tiny snipets about these prophecies, but maybe something happened - or didn't happen or maybe he thought that he had been mistaken about how he had read the prohecy previously. We see we Melisandre that she is desperately searching to understand her visions. Maybe Rhaegar was just as uncertain.

What you say very much echoes what I have been feeling.

That Rhaegar had to triumph over all lords of the realm reminds me of the legitimacy that Mance claimed as King-beyond-the-Wall:

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don’t become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters.

In the Spearwife princess conjecture, I presumed that Rhaegar followed some ancestral northern tradition (something that is more alive among wildlings than among northerners at the time of the story), perhaps to gain legitimacy in the eyes of the old gods. Hence the need to win at Harrenhal, a place where the old gods still have power, it seems. That fits very well with Mance's pronouncement.

Here might be a relevant passage from Barristan (Danaerys ASoS)

Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’”

I suddenly had a strange thought. If Rhaegar had indeed become a follower of R'hollor, then he probably also believed in the magic of king's blood. If that is the case, then what would that mean for Jon Snow? Was he actually supposed to be sacrificed?

If Lyanna had become a follower during her stay with Rhaegar, maybe she became convinced that Jon Snow had to be sacrificed for some prophecy to be fulfilled. Was that what she was asking of Ned? "Promise me Ned; to sacrifice my infant son to the lord of light."

Maybe now that Jon dies at the end of aDwD, this particular prophecy can finally be fulfilled.

Or is this just totally crackpot? (By the way; Hi, this is my first post)

Since it appeared that the notion of sacrifice is essential in the story, I am tempted to see sacrifices everywhere. Be careful about that.

It seems to me that the red religion is not monolithic. It's possible that Melisandre is an outsider, even an heretic. The notion of sacrifice is present among the northmen, in Pentos and probably in other places as well. It's not clear that the notion of King's blood is central to the cult of R'hllor.

[brashcandy]

Bran:

In the Spearwife princess conjecture, I presumed that Rhaegar followed some ancestral northern tradition (something that is more alive among wildlings than among northerners at the time of the story), perhaps to gain legitimacy in the eyes of the old gods. Hence the need to win at Harrenhal, a place where the old gods still have power, it seems. That fits very well with Mance's pronouncement.

I think that the necessity of winning the tourney had a lot to do actually being able to "crown" Lyanna as queen of love and beauty and I definitely agree that there was more to it than simply impressing her with his fighting skills, and that the crowning probably had something to do with making his "selection" of her valid and legitimate in the traditions of the old gods. Yet we also know that the wildlings don't require a crowning to prove that one is king or queen or worthy of respect. When Jon first meets Mance, he observes:

The King-beyond-the-wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much of a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. There was no crown on his head, no gold rings on his arms, no jewels at his throat, not even a gleam of silver. He wore wool and leather, and his only garment of note was his ragged black wool cloak, its long tears patched with faded red silk.

Later, in introducing Dalla, Mance tells Jon:

"The good woman at the brazier ... is Dalla." The pregnant woman smiled shyly. "Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child."

So perhaps Rhaegar might have needed to crown Lyanna, but maybe more as an undeniable gesture that he was choosing her over Elia, with the selection related to the girl's fertility and the prophecy of the PtwP. We know that Elia had difficulties in childbirth and IIRC was told that she would not be able to have any more children.

[7V3N]

I have brought this up before, but it was left unanswered: What if Rhaegar had a huge discovery and realized that he is AA reborn, Aegon is the PWWP, Lyanna is his Nissa Nissa, and Jon would be Lightbringer. This could explain why Rhaegar took Lyanna and basically ignored the risks it would mean to his own life.

[oba]

When Barristan suggests that the concept of an unbeatable knight is more words than fact, how do people read him meaning that AD>RT? I think he's saying that all the greatest knights were at about the same level, and that so many details go into which one wins at which time that deciding one is unmatched is faulty.

IMO to take from that that ___>Rhaegar is the opposite of what Barristan was suggesting. He's saying none of the greats were clearly> the others. He specifically suggests that RT didn't win as many tourneys as Viserys suggested because he didn't enter that many, not that he did and was being beaten a lot. In pretty much every instance where we do hear of him entering, he wins or comes damn close. That's as good a record as any I've heard of.

I agree with you. Barristan specifically says that Rhaegar's prowess was "unquestioned" but that he "seldom entered the lists".

As far as Robert's statements to Ned, I think folks are really making some, er, interesting leaps with that one.

Robert has just struck Cersei. To me, his statements reflect a man who's realized that his way of dealing with his enemies while he was trying to win the throne (physical violence, battlefield prowess, etc.) doesn't work now that he's on the throne. Hence his rhetorical question to Ned of "How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?"

He then thinks about Rhaegar, ruefully noting that although he (Robert) seemed to win, it's a hollow victory because Rhaegar and Lyanna are either linked in death or even together in the afterlife for all he knows while he (Robert) is stuck with Cersei.

Frankly, I'd be shocked if this is Robert's way of suddenly, after 16 years or so, revealing that something sketchy/magical was going on with his fight with Rhaegar. The same with the "black heart" reference. I definitely think this is just a reflection of Robert's hatred for Rhaegar. In the same manner that I don't think there's anything sorcerous/magical about Myles Toyne being called (and liking being called ) "Blackheart".

Also, the idea that Arthur Dayne would 'let' RT win seems to be to be completely against what kind of man he was. People seem to go to weird lengths to challenge the general perception that RT was exceptional, even when quoting several people saying as much.

Not just Arthur Dayne, but you'd have to add Brandon Stark, Yohn Royce, and Barristan Selmy to the list of guys who apparently jobbed for Rhaegar at Harrenhal. And what about the tourney at Storm's End where a younger Rhaegar unhorsed a bunch of notable knights, as well?

I think these are interesting theories, but, I don't find them all that convincing or persuasive.

[Bran Vras]

I think that the necessity of winning the tourney had a lot to do actually being able to "crown" Lyanna as queen of love and beauty and I definitely agree that there was more to it than simply impressing her with his fighting skills, and that the crowning probably had something to do with making his "selection" of her valid and legitimate in the traditions of the old gods. Yet we also know that the wildlings don't require a crowning to prove that one is king or queen or worthy of respect. When Jon first meets Mance, he observes:

I think we are on the same page, Brashcandy. Rhaegar's status, by birth, as a crown prince was not appropriate to claim Lyanna. Therefore Rhaegar had to "earn" his princess. Whether the victory at Harrenhal made Rhaegar "King" according to some tradition remains to be seen, but that seems compatible with what Mance is saying. It's possible that Mance could marry Dalla only because he had beaten sword in hand the other pretenders to the Kingship-beyond-the-Wall. We don't know much about that story.

I have another thought that is closely related. As we saw in Winterfell, a valid northern marriage requires a tree, and that a male family member give the bride to the groom. I am not quite sure, but in a wildling variant, if no family member is willing to give the bride, the groom may have to prove his valour by fighting any protesting relative of the bride. (Ygritte says something along this lines.) At Harrenhal, Rhaegar has defeated Yohn Royce, Brandon Stark, Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy.

[Bran Vras]

I agree with you. Barristan specifically says that Rhaegar's prowess was "unquestioned" but that he "seldom entered the lists".

As far as Robert's statements to Ned, I think folks are really making some, er, interesting leaps with that one.

Robert has just struck Cersei. To me, his statements reflect a man who's realized that his way of dealing with his enemies while he was trying to win the throne (physical violence, battlefield prowess, etc.) doesn't work now that he's on the throne. Hence his rhetorical question to Ned of "How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?"

He then thinks about Rhaegar, ruefully noting that although he (Robert) seemed to win, it's a hollow victory because Rhaegar and Lyanna are either linked in death or even together in the afterlife for all he knows while he (Robert) is stuck with Cersei.

Frankly, I'd be shocked if this is Robert's way of suddenly, after 16 years or so, revealing that something sketchy/magical was going on with his fight with Rhaegar. The same with the "black heart" reference. I definitely think this is just a reflection of Robert's hatred for Rhaegar. In the same manner that I don't think there's anything sorcerous/magical about Myles Toyne being called (and liking being called ) "Blackheart".

Not just Arthur Dayne, but you'd have to add Brandon Stark, Yohn Royce, and Barristan Selmy to the list of guys who apparently jobbed for Rhaegar at Harrenhal. And what about the tourney at Storm's End where a younger Rhaegar unhorsed a bunch of notable knights, as well?

I think these are interesting theories, but, I don't find them all that convincing or persuasive.

Perhaps it's worth to repeat again the argument. Barristan is surely hesitant to praise Rhaegar and he makes the point that winning at jousting is subject all kind of random circumstances. So Rhaegar could not have expected to be certain to win, especially since he would face Barristan in the final tilt, who had beaten him at Storm's End previously.

Apparently, a triumph at Harrenhal was crucial for Rhaegar and, barring some extraordinary help, the victory was subject to chance. Nobody claimed that Rhaegar had no chance to win.

Your reading of Robert's remark about the Trident explains why I took certain precautions when I brought that subject up and I talked about double meaning. However, we have a strong hint that the rubies are magical. They seem to resurface at the Quiet Isle, which more unlikely than any outcome in jousting. One is still missing, though. (Somehow that reminds me of the one ring in the Lord of the Rings, which can't ever be lost.)

It's of secondary importance, but, as I said in the OP, I would be very surprised if the tourney at Lannisport wasn't rigged. Tywin wanted Rhaegar to propose Cersei at the end of the tournament. All the competitors were bannermen from the Westerlands. Tywin surely made everybody involved understand what kind of outcome was desired. GRRM writes the account from the point of view of Cersei who doesn't seem to realize what was going on.

[oba]

Perhaps it's worth to repeat again the argument. Barristan is surely hesitant to praise Rhaegar and he makes the point that winning at jousting is subject all kind of random circumstances. So Rhaegar could not have expected to be certain to win, especially since he would face Barristan in the final tilt, who had beaten him at Storm's End previously.

I don't think he's really hesitant to praise him, though. He's not as over-the-top effusive in his description of Rhaegar's skill as Viserys was (and thus as Dany is expecting). He says that Rhaegar's prowess is unquestioned, but that he seldom entered the lists. He says that the concept of a peerless warrior is hooey, which would apply equally to Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, himself, Jaime Lannister, etc. He says that Rhaegar did everything well, including jousting.

I guess where I stand is that Rhaegar certainly wouldn't have been certain he'd win the tourney, but that it's a great stretch to then conclude that it's likely he used his magic rubies to ensure victory, particularly when there's really no evidence there was anything special about these rubies to begin with. It also begs the question of why these magic rubies then failed him so spectacularly at the Trident.

Apparently, a triumph at Harrenhal was crucial for Rhaegar and, barring some extraordinary help, the victory was subject to chance.

Isn't this kind of a circular reasoning, though? The triumph at Harrenhal was crucial therefore Rhaegar used magic to help ensure victory. How do we know he used magic to help ensure victory? Well, the triumph was crucial so he wasn't going to leave anything up to chance. I'm not saying it's not possible, just that I don't think the foundation, based on what little we know so far, is all that solid. If that changes in subsequent books as we (hopefully) learn more about Harrenhal, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and everything else, I'll be the first to say I was dead wrong and applaud you for your foresight and insight.

It's of secondary importance, but, as I said in the OP, I would be very surprised if the tourney at Lannisport wasn't rigged. Tywin wanted Rhaegar to propose Cersei at the end of the tournament. All the competitors were bannermen from the Westerlands. Tywin surely made everybody involved understand what kind of outcome was desired. GRRM writes the account from the point of view of Cersei who doesn't seem to realize what was going on.

I have a much easier time believing this, particularly after reading The Mystery Knight.

[Clueless Northman]

However, we have a strong hint that the rubies are magical. They seem to resurface at the Quiet Isle, which more unlikely than any outcome in jousting. One is still missing, though.

I have a hard time understanding this reasoning. Sure, a handful of rubies were found later, but how can we know only one is missing?

I mean, Rhaegar had a whole dragon made of rubies on his breastplate. That doesn't mean 6-7 rubies, that requires tens of them. Which is also why it's been widely reported that men of all sides stopped fighting and tried hard to gather the rubies - they knew there were many of them, and each one was quite valuable. And we might safely assume that some rubies were actually recovered by soldiers (and others were just plain lost in the Trident).

[Bran Vras]

I have a hard time understanding this reasoning. Sure, a handful of rubies were found later, but how can we know only one is missing?

I mean, Rhaegar had a whole dragon made of rubies on his breastplate. That doesn't mean 6-7 rubies, that requires tens of them. Which is also why it's been widely reported that men of all sides stopped fighting and tried hard to gather the rubies - they knew there were many of them, and each one was quite valuable. And we might safely assume that some rubies were actually recovered by soldiers (and others were just plain lost in the Trident).

I just reread the passage, in AFfC (Brienne), where the monk says:

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

I understood that only seven rubies were on the breastplate. But there is the possibility that the monks wait for a seventh ruby because seven is a holy number for them.

Here is the description of the rubies in AFfC (Jaime):

The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.

Help me with my English. Does it mean that the disposition of the rubies alone represents the dragon? If so, it would have been hard to do it with only seven rubies.

Edit: Here is another passage (AGoT)

The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House

wrought in rubies on the breast.

Unless the dragon was heavily stylized, and we have no indication that he was, Rhaegar had more than seven rubies, and therefore only a few of the rubies resurfaced at the Quiet Isle. (However, it's possible that only seven of the rubies are magical.)

Yes, men fought over the rubies when Rhaegar fell, but we have yet to hear that any stone has been caught, which is compatible with the "no lance could touch him" comment.

If Rhaegar had seven rubies, does it necessarily refer to the Faith of the Seven? After all the Targaryens insisted on having seven kingdoms before converting to the Faith.

[oba]

II understood that only seven rubies were on the breastplate. But there is the possibility that the monks wait for a seventh ruby because seven is a holy number for them.

In addition to the already-mentioned recollection of Ned that men from both armies were scrabbling in the water for rubies knocked free of Rhaegar's armor, which, IMO, very, very strongly implies that there were more than 7 rubies, we have Arya saying this to Sansa in Book 1:

"I'm not," Arya said, trying to brush a tangle out of Nymeria's matted grey fur. "Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford."

"Rubies," Sansa said, lost. "What rubies?"

Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. "Rhaegar's rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown."

Then we have the Dany's vision in the House of Undying in which rubies are flying "like drops of blood" off of Rhaegar's chest. Again, this doesn't, IMO, seem like the description of only seven rubies.

Unless the dragon was heavily stylized, and we have no indication that he was, Rhaegar had more than seven rubies, and therefore only a few of the rubies resurfaced at the Quiet Isle. (However, it's possible that only seven of the rubies are magical.)

Yes, it's possible, but I still don't think there's really any evidence for us to assume that any of the rubies were magical to begin with.

Yes, men fought over the rubies when Rhaegar fell, but we have yet to hear that any stone has been caught, which is compatible with the "no lance could touch him" comment.

Or, call me crazy, but "it seemed no lance could touch him" is just Ned being somewhat poetic in remembering that Rhaegar rode really, really well. And the reason men might have had a hard time picking up the rubies is that they were flowing downriver with a battle still going on in and around said river. I certainly didn't get the impression that magic was responsible. Also, I think I'd be more receptive to this theory if the magical rubies weren't taking on whatever magical property is required to keep the theory going yet those properties aren't even consistent. The rubies keep Rhaegar safe in a joust yet not when Robert's crushing him with his hammer? Yet, immediately after Rhaegar's death, again, no one can touch the rubies that have fallen in the water?

[Bran Vras]

The rubies keep Rhaegar safe in a joust yet not when Robert's crushing him with his hammer? Yet, immediately after Rhaegar's death, again, no one can touch the rubies that have fallen in the water?

That is a really interesting point. How is it that Rhaegar was invincible at Harrenhal and was defeated by Robert at the Trident? The question arises independently of what I am suggesting with the rubies. Of course, Robert was a renowned warrior, perhaps not as capable as Barristan and Arthur Dayne were though. Like Barristan, we could attribute to mere chance the diverse outcomes of fighting between knights of comparable valour. But that would not be very interesting.

However, if one believes in the power of the rubies, there might be an explanation (just an idea). Melisandre tells us that her magic is stronger at the Wall, in particular the glamour she makes. There are hints that the castles of the Wall are somehow similar to Harrenhal. Harrenhal is mentioned in Old Nan's story, there was blood in the mortar, beams were made out of weirwood, Harren the Black was the brother of a Lord Commander. Jon mentions also that the castle at the Wall are built from the blood of the brothers at the Night's Watch. So if one believes in the magic of the rubies, the glamour might have been stronger at Harrenhal.

This is just one explanation worthy of consideration. I would rather favour that whoever or whatever provided strength to Rhaegar in Harrenhal betrayed him at the Trident or alternately that Robert himself received some help. The conversation recalled by Jaime in AFfC indicates that Rhaegar was confident he would prevail when he left King's Landing. So he has overestimated his own strength or underestimated Robert's.

[brashcandy]

Or, call me crazy, but "it seemed no lance could touch him" is just Ned being somewhat poetic in remembering that Rhaegar rode really, really well. And the reason men might have had a hard time picking up the rubies is that they were flowing downriver with a battle still going on in and around said river. I certainly didn't get the impression that magic was responsible. Also, I think I'd be more receptive to this theory if the magical rubies weren't taking on whatever magical property is required to keep the theory going yet those properties aren't even consistent. The rubies keep Rhaegar safe in a joust yet not when Robert's crushing him with his hammer? Yet, immediately after Rhaegar's death, again, no one can touch the rubies that have fallen in the water?

My theory is that whatever glamour was associated with the rubies began to wear off after the long and exhausting fight with Robert. Plus, Robert smashes Rhaegar directly on the breastplate where the rubies are. I do think it's strange that none of the soldiers caught the rubies. I mean if there were a lot of them you would think someone would be able to grasp at least one. The brothers on the Quiet Isle might be waiting for the seventh because it's a mystical number, and also because it might be a signal of some sort or enable them to perform some deed. :dunno:

Bran Vras, I like your suggestion that the magic of the rubies may have been stronger in Harrenhal as well.