Brienne the Beauty Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 People can and do act communally without the monopoly of force the state posseses hanging over their heads.When they do, the right generally bitches about "unions" or "hippie protesters." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I generally fall in the anti-statist political point of view and urge for a strong form of centralized government. One of these exceptions is that I believe that the 17th amendment should be repealed and that states should appoint their US Senators instead of bringing the position of a general election. In an election, especially one that is as big as a Senate seat requires tons of money campaigning. That money is raised nationally and internationally. I would rather that a Senator be beholden to the State for his or her job rather than special interest.For all the faults of the Senate, the one affliction they are not cursed with is gerrymandering. Giving Senate appointments back to the state legislatures (many of which are grossly gerrymandered) would change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 BtB,Were you under the impression I dislike such community efforts?RBPL,Fair point. But the solution is to end gerrymandering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 The question was leading, I've changed it. Old habits die hard. I was not attempting to conceal the source of the question. I assumed people reading this thread are bright enough to figure it out without connecting all the dots for them.Ah, so you were just trolling. That's much better than asking an assholish question designed to provoke people...owaitAs to your second point. I do not believe "community" is coextensive with "State". As such I do not agree Statists are simply people who value "community" over the individual. People can and do act communally without the monopoly of force the state posseses hanging over their heads.And I believe those who don't value a strong central force or set of forces do not value community, and their version of community is at best excluding anyone that they don't like (such as non christians, nonwhites, nonwomen) while patting themselves on the back and saying what great people they are. The folks who value individuality also value things like kids not having healthcare or segregation in schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Kalbear,Asking a question, even a leading one, equates to "trolling"? I was looking for discussion. That means asking questions and sometimes providing answers.Why are you so pissed off about this particular question? (see completely open ended non-leading question). Your claws are really out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 For all the faults of the Senate, the one affliction they are not cursed with is gerrymandering. Giving Senate appointments back to the state legislatures (many of which are grossly gerrymandered) would change that.Even if gerrymandering occurred, then the Senator would still be beholden to his position by State politics rather than national and international interests. Having regional representation is important, and I think that we miss that now because everyone in our system is elected out of the same funding pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Asking a question, even a leading one, equates to "trolling"? I was looking for discussion. That means asking questions and sometimes providing answers.Asking a question is not trolling. Asking a leading question designed to provoke an emotional response is basically the definition of trolling. You weren't looking for discussion with that; you were looking for a fight. And grats! You got one.Why are you so pissed off about this particular question? (see completely open ended non-leading question). Your claws are really out here.This is something you and I have always, ALWAYS come to blows on. You think personal freedom - like the freedom to donate to whatever charities you choose - is far more important than things like taxes. I think that if given the option you'd segregate schools (personal freedom!), choose to not fund the black schools (personal freedom!), give your money to only the charities that matter to you and if that means fucking over the poor, the nonwhite, the women, so be it (personal freedom!), and all the while pat yourself on the back for being such a great liberal thinker who is so very happy that you donate 20% of your salary to your evangelical, racist church who bashes gays every second Sunday.The notion that statism is about security is absurd. It's insulting. It's about making sure that no one person has so much power that they are able to make it shitty for everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Kalbear,Your perception that I'm looking for a fight is simply incorrect. I was asking a question, I wasn't trying to provoke an emotional response. The fact that it took several hours for discussion of my question to really get going would, I believe, support that assertion.You and I fundementally disagree about the the proper role of government and have for quite some time. That said I'm not angry that you disagree with me.You think I'm an evangelical Christian?:rofl:That's funny. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brienne the Beauty Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 The notion that statism is about security is absurd. It's insulting. It's about making sure that no one person has so much power that they are able to make it shitty for everyone else.It can be about the state oppressing the people... but most people that the libertarians like to call "statist" are simply calling for balance. They don't want the state to become all powerful, and they don't want business to become all powerful either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 BtB,Which I think is an absolutely fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I don't think most statists are doing so because they want to oppress the people. Any more than antistatists do.You think I'm an evangelical Christian?That's funny. No, actually. I think your wife is, and that you'd donate money to her church because she told you to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Kalbear,Your assumption about my wife would be incorrect. I've never thought, even if the assumption to my leading question were correct, that statists delight in oppressing people. That would be silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddington Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Scot,Ideally I'd like a state large enough and powerful enough to implement, what I feel that a state should provide. Whilst giving me as a indvidual enough power so that I can keep it out of what I feel it shouldn't be in. I feel thats a little bit of a cop-out of an answer though. Honestly a lot of the problems I have over EU is a big state/small state issue. Which I am a little conflicted about because I am not unhappy with what the British state provides, I am however getting steadily more upset with how it's using its power at the moment.Where as I am concerned about the size and power of the EU, I am not sure if I can adquately expression the reason. Without sounding like a Tory back bencher frothing at the mouth about foreigners.edit:- gah thats taken me ages to write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Paddington,What you are saying makes sense to me. The EU is further removed from you and your concerns than than the UK government is hence you are less comfortable with its authority than that of the UK government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 I think that's an excellent point but I do think it suggests another question: what is a better state a small state with limited but well defined powers or a large state with expansive powers that can be asserted without warning or awareness that the State is even interested in the area the State is now asserting power? How about a large state with expansive but strictly regulated powers1 and near-total transparency2?1) eg required to comply with a human rights act, follow set procedures for introducing and debating new law, etc.2) Basically if it's not a individual's personal details or a matter of national security (with a very high bar on what qualifies!), it should be available online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brienne the Beauty Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 The EU is less tightly bound than the USA, largely because of language issues. The TV that is watched in Germany is not the same as the TV that is watched in the UK, and French people don't chat on the same internet sites as Spanish people. So most things that the EU does come as a bit of a surprise to individual countries, because you can't follow what is happening in the European Parliament very easily unless you are a huge politics nerd. This makes it feel like there is very little democratic control or oversight of the EU. It is also massively complicated with seven major parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Even if gerrymandering occurred, then the Senator would still be beholden to his position by State politics rather than national and international interests. Having regional representation is important, and I think that we miss that now because everyone in our system is elected out of the same funding pool.Except that if control of the Senate hinged on an obscure legislative contest in Ohio, aforementioned special interests would spend vast sums on trying to influence that legislative contest. Every state legislature election would suddenly become of national importance, and the money would follow (to say nothing of legislators getting bribed: that happened all the time before the 17th amendment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 What you are saying makes sense to me. The EU is further removed from you and your concerns than than the UK government is hence you are less comfortable with its authority than that of the UK government.It's more that the EU lacks the democratic accountability of the UK Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddington Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I also feel we are poorly informed about the EU. During the worst of my tin-foil hat wearing moments, I sometimes belive I am poorly informed, because if I was properly informed I'd be quite unhappy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Except that if control of the Senate hinged on an obscure legislative contest in Ohio, aforementioned special interests would spend vast sums on trying to influence that legislative contest. Every state legislature election would suddenly become of national importance, and the money would follow (to say nothing of legislators getting bribed: that happened all the time before the 17th amendment).This already happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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