A sneak peek at new HBO Essos map

[Hyper]

EDIT: A very quick and rough distance estimate suggests that Dany's journey from AGoT to the end of ADWD has covered somewhere over 8,000 miles :stunned: Impressive.

The Journey from Pentos to Qarth in AGOT/ACOK is undoubtedly a looong trek (5500-6000 miles?). But after that? She sailed from Qarth to Astapor, right? Then the trip from Astapor to Mereen is not that far.

[Free Northman]

The political borders and the terms 'Stormlands' and 'Crownlands' all come from the fandom rather than GRRM, IIRC, so it's cool to see them being used in the TV show.

Nice map. But it seems to me they've doubled the true size of the Gift. It is supposedly 50 leagues from north to south, meaning half the length of the Wall. On that map, the Gift seems to stretch the full length of the Wall to the south, meaning it is about 100 leagues across.

As a consequence, it cuts down the size of the Umber lands and the Mountain Clans significantly.

Bottomline: They've made the Gift twice as big as it actually is, for some reason.

[Werthead]

The Journey from Pentos to Qarth in AGOT/ACOK is undoubtedly a looong trek (5500-6000 miles?). But after that? She sailed from Qarth to Astapor, right? Then the trip from Astapor to Mereen is not that far.

Yeah, that includes a fair chunk at sea. That's why I said 'journey'. Astapor to Meereen is a few hundred miles (it's 160 miles from Yunkai to Meereen and on the map they're practically next door to each other on the map). Plus a few hundred miles into the Dothraki sea, but that wasn't that hard a journey due to the transportation used :)

ETA: I think 'Samyria' is a corruption/contraction of Shamyriana, which is mentioned in the books as one of the far eastern cities/nations (along with Yi Ti, Bayasabhad, Kayakayanaya and the Jhogos Nai).

ETA2: Speculative map building on the new info. I put Asshai on the 'Qarth is halfway from there to Valyria' basis, whilst followed GRRM's info to MountainGoat elsewhere (the Summer Islands are large and south of Naath, presumably off the coast of Sothoryos), pretty much everything else is speculative. I think the placements of Sothoryos on the ASoS map and the nature of the south coast of the Jade Sea means that mostly likely Sothoryos does form the south coast of that sea. Yi Ti and the Jhogos Nai were placed on the basis that no-one's supposed to have gone much past Asshai and returned, so presumably they have to be to the north (or maybe on islands on the Jade Sea, which I should have put on there but forgot).

[The hairy bear]

ETA2: Speculative map building on the new info.

I think that the one thing that we could say it's probably wrong in your speculative map is the location of the Summer Islands. In the map of the Slaver's Bay introduced in ASOS there's an arrow marking the direction of the Summer Islands that suggests that they are at approximately the same latitude.

The other think that causes me headaches is the location of Asshai. Jorah describes it as being "far south". I would place it in eastern coast of Sothoryos if it weren't for the fact that there are caravans conecting Asshai and the rest of Essos. I can't think of a way to place it South of Qarth and make it reachable by road.

[Free Northman]

Yeah, that includes a fair chunk at sea. That's why I said 'journey'. Astapor to Meereen is a few hundred miles (it's 160 miles from Yunkai to Meereen and on the map they're practically next door to each other on the map). Plus a few hundred miles into the Dothraki sea, but that wasn't that hard a journey due to the transportation used :)

ETA: I think 'Samyria' is a corruption/contraction of Shamyriana, which is mentioned in the books as one of the far eastern cities/nations (along with Yi Ti, Bayasabhad, Kayakayanaya and the Jhogos Nai).

ETA2: Speculative map building on the new info. I put Asshai on the 'Qarth is halfway from there to Valyria' basis, whilst followed GRRM's info to MountainGoat elsewhere (the Summer Islands are large and south of Naath, presumably off the coast of Sothoryos), pretty much everything else is speculative. I think the placements of Sothoryos on the ASoS map and the nature of the south coast of the Jade Sea means that mostly likely Sothoryos does form the south coast of that sea. Yi Ti and the Jhogos Nai were placed on the basis that no-one's supposed to have gone much past Asshai and returned, so presumably they have to be to the north (or maybe on islands on the Jade Sea, which I should have put on there but forgot).

Great map. From a rough estimate using your 900 mile scale bar, it would seem that the entire map spans about what, 9000 miles or so? If it was earth, it would mean that about 16000 miles of the planet's circumference is still unknown. Given that this planet is slightly larger than earth, it could be as many as 20 000.

Bottomline, it would seem that Westeros and Essos together span only one third of the globe. Could the rest really be one giant ocean, from the Shadowlands to the Iron Isles? That would seem unlikely.

There is enough room for another Westeros sized continent, with still enough space for thousands of miles of ocean on either side of it.

[Werthead]

Another thought is that on the map, it looks like the body of water between Sothoryos and Essos and extending east to Qarth should perhaps be given a different name. Valyria and the north of Sothoryos close it off enough that it's basically a much bigger gulf extending into the Summer Sea rather than a continuation of it.

I think that the one thing that we could say it's probably wrong in your speculative map is the location of the Summer Islands. In the map of the Slaver's Bay introduced in ASOS there's an arrow marking the direction of the Summer Islands that suggests that they are at approximately the same latitude.

Agreed, but I think this is something else GRRM has rethought. In some info he gave MountainGoat just a week or two ago, he said the Summer Islands were roughly south of Naath and the Narrow Sea, which essentially means that they have to be off the coast of Sothoryos and essentially due south of that arrow in ASoS.

The other think that causes me headaches is the location of Asshai. Jorah describes it as being "far south". I would place it in eastern coast of Sothoryos if it weren't for the fact that there are caravans conecting Asshai and the rest of Essos. I can't think of a way to place it South of Qarth and make it reachable by road.

Yup, and Khal Drogo muses on sacking it in AGoT. Whilst the Straits of Qarth are (presumably) extremely narrow compared even to the Narrow Sea, I doubt the Dothraki would consider it if it were on Sothoryos. It must be on Essos but on the far side of the Jade Sea. The southerly location is possible, simply have that northern part of Sothoryos as a peninsular and the bit of land that Asshai is on simply extends much further south (a bit like on Other-in-Law's map, but not quite as extreme). So you could get there by land but it'd be a mammoth journey going well out of your way compared to just scooting across the Jade Sea by ship.

Could the rest really be one giant ocean, from the Shadowlands to the Iron Isles? That would seem unlikely.

Agreed. However, GRRM has said that if there is another continent out that way, it'd remain unknown and will not appear on any maps in the future since the people Westeros and Essos would have no knowledge of it. I also don't expect all of Sothoryos to be mapped either for that reason, since he says most of the continent is unexplored (and that's pretty conceivable; the Romans had thoroughly explored the north coast of Africa but never followed it all the way round to the south. In fact, that wasn't done for almost another thousand years). I also wonder if the map will stop at Asshai to continue the mystery of the Shadow, or if that wil be shown as well.

[Hyper]

ETA2: Speculative map building on the new info. I put Asshai on the 'Qarth is halfway from there to Valyria' basis, whilst followed GRRM's info to MountainGoat elsewhere (the Summer Islands are large and south of Naath, presumably off the coast of Sothoryos), pretty much everything else is speculative. I think the placements of Sothoryos on the ASoS map and the nature of the south coast of the Jade Sea means that mostly likely Sothoryos does form the south coast of that sea. Yi Ti and the Jhogos Nai were placed on the basis that no-one's supposed to have gone much past Asshai and returned, so presumably they have to be to the north (or maybe on islands on the Jade Sea, which I should have put on there but forgot).

I like your map - but are you sure about the location of Vaes Dothrak? It seems to be faaar to much east. My gut feeling was that it was a bit closer to Qohor - I would have placed it on the river halfway to Qohor, based on the opening credit map sweep. But then again, I don't have any hard evidence to support my feeling. :)

[theMountainGoat]

Agreed, but I think this is something else GRRM has rethought. In some info he gave MountainGoat just a week or two ago, he said the Summer Islands were roughly south of Naath and the Narrow Sea, which essentially means that they have to be off the coast of Sothoryos and essentially due south of that arrow in ASoS.

I think you may have misremembered what I said or I wrote it wrong in the first place or something.

What George told me is that the Summer Islands should be south of the Narrow Sea and west of Naath. Pretty much right where you have the map scale on your speculative map.

The detail I have a huge problem with is the location of Vaes Dothrak. Being that far east is going to cause one huge timeline problem with getting the caravan that brings the letters and wine merchant to Vaes Dothrak. There just isn't enough time between Robert issuing the decree for Dany to be killed and getting a merchant caravan to travel that far. I've managed to get all the other journeys to fit the timeline in a realistic manner but that location is going to require the caravan to do an average of 70-80 miles per day to get there in time. Unless we can cheat somehow and have birds carry the message from Pentos to Qohor and have the letters & news picked up by the caravan there. But then the people of Essos do not use ravens or messenger birds at all. Although I do have a theory that maybe Ilyrio does use such methods and it's just everyone else that doesn't.

[Arataniello]

Will all such disparities and discrepancies in the mapping be cleared up and a final, definitive, map be in Ran's book?

(other than details GRRM hasn't decided on).

[Free Northman]

Werthead

I also think Sothoryos looks awfully big on your map. It has been my impression that Essos is the Asia of Martinworld, and should be the biggest continent, but looking at the bulk of Sothoryos that we can see, and not knowing how far south it still extends, Sothoryos just seems to be too big.

I think Sothoryos should be smaller than Essos.

[Werthead]

Sothoryos could just end south of the map, so it could be pretty small. That's why it's speculative :) I think GRRM has compared Essos to Eurasia and Sothoryos to Africa, but as I said, unless Essos extends much further east than it appears, than it's not going to be anything like as big as Eurasia. As 'wide' as Eurasia, maybe, but nowhere near the area. However, that's par for the course, as GRRM has also compared Westeros to South America when it's only the length of SA, nowhere near the area.

are you sure about the location of Vaes Dothrak? It seems to be faaar to much east.

I agree. Vaes Dothrak being that far east is problematic. It's not realistic given the travel times elsewhere in the books. I'd prefer it to be around those lakes in the Dothraki Sea (I assumed one of them was the Womb of the World, honestly).

What George told me is that the Summer Islands should be south of the Narrow Sea and west of Naath. Pretty much right where you have the map scale on your speculative map.

Damn, I definitely misunderstood that. Something that can be fixed easily enough :)

Will all such disparities and discrepancies in the mapping be cleared up and a final, definitive, map be in Ran's book?

The definitive maps will be in The Lands of Ice and Fire, due out in October. I imagine duplicates of those maps (or indeed, the originals) will be in Ran's book.

[Free Northman]

Werthead

I also think Sothoryos looks awfully big on your map. It has been my impression that Essos is the Asia of Martinworld, and should be the biggest continent, but looking at the bulk of Sothoryos that we can see, and not knowing how far south it still extends, Sothoryos just seems to be too big.

I think Sothoryos should be smaller than Essos.

The size problem might be solved if the Straights of Qarth are in fact bordered by Essos on both sides. In other words the Jade Sea is then just an inland Sea, surrounded on all sides by Essos. Then the entire northern part of Sothoryos as indicated on your map would in fact still be part of Essos, with Sothoryos not extending as far East or North as Qarth.

I always though that the tip of Sothoryos that we could see on the Valyria Map in Dance was in fact the northernmost part of it, and that it didn't stretch as far up as Qarth, or as far East as is suggested on your map.

I don't know, it's all speculation, but what do you think of this suggestion?

[Werthead]

The size problem might be solved if the Straights of Qarth are in fact bordered by Essos on both sides. In other words the Jade Sea is then just an inland Sea, surrounded on all sides by Essos. Then the entire northern part of Sothoryos as indicated on your map would in fact still be part of Essos, with Sothoryos not extending as far East or North as Qarth.

I always though that the tip of Sothoryos that we could see on the Valyria Map in Dance was in fact the northernmost part of it, and that it didn't stretch as far up as Qarth, or as far East as is suggested on your map.

I don't know, it's all speculation, but what do you think of this suggestion?

Certainly possible. The 'is the Jade Sea an inland sea or a separate ocean' has been a long-standing question which has never been resolved.

Looking at the new maps and comparing them to the old, the proximity of Sothoryos and the Straits of Qarth certainly makes it look likely that Sothoryos is the south coast of the Jade Sea, but not 100%. One of the problems with this possibility is that if it was so, the Summer Sea would presumably extend off thousands of more miles to the east, with yet more lands lying off that way. If this was the case, we'd probably have heard more about them, but haven't. Based on that alone, it sounds like the Summer Sea ends at the Straits and then we have the Jade Sea beyond and its various ports and islands, then Asshai and the Shadow, and that's it.

Updated spec map, with the Summer Islands moved to the proper location. That also means I can reduce the size of Sothoryos a bit.

[mor2]

I know this is just a speculation, but I like it, so far this the second idea I liked, since I started speculating on the lands beyond westeros. I like how the world taking shape and exited to see what the world of ice and fire would show us.

Here is a quick adding your speculation and a quick effect using the tv show map. http://i44.tinypic.com/2b8ig2.jpg

[Free Northman]

Certainly possible. The 'is the Jade Sea an inland sea or a separate ocean' has been a long-standing question which has never been resolved.

Looking at the new maps and comparing them to the old, the proximity of Sothoryos and the Straits of Qarth certainly makes it look likely that Sothoryos is the south coast of the Jade Sea, but not 100%. One of the problems with this possibility is that if it was so, the Summer Sea would presumably extend off thousands of more miles to the east, with yet more lands lying off that way. If this was the case, we'd probably have heard more about them, but haven't. Based on that alone, it sounds like the Summer Sea ends at the Straits and then we have the Jade Sea beyond and its various ports and islands, then Asshai and the Shadow, and that's it.

Updated spec map, with the Summer Islands moved to the proper location. That also means I can reduce the size of Sothoryos a bit.

What could be considered is not having the Jade Sea extend as far North. That thin strip of land above the Jade Sea just makes Essos appear too stringy, I guess.

A possibility could be to move the northern coast of the Jade Sea more or less to where you now have Bayasabad, but to then move the Jade Sea's southern coast down to about New Ghis's latitude.

That would mean that the part of Sothoryos that makes up the Straights of Qarth is just a peninsula, that stretches up from the main continent, which is located much farther south, the north coast being on the same level as Naath, mostly.

Then you also wouldn't have those Straights south of Ashai, which I haven't heard mentioned anywhere in the series as far as I recall.

[Hyper]

Yes, there is no reason that the Jade sea has to only have two thin straights leading into it. More likely it would be open on the other side. Think the Gulf of Mexico or the Indian Ocean. They are not virtually cut off from other parts of the ocean - instead they are just smaller areas of larger bodies of water.

If I was drawing a speculative map I would certainly make the eastern edge of the Jade sea MUCH wider. The top of Sothoryos would be nowhere near Asshai.

[Werthead]

The problem is that GRRM has said there are three known continents, not four. All the evidence points to Asshai being on Essos, not a yet-further-eastern-continent. The Jade Sea has also been described as a circular sea, which certainly suggests it is landlocked or nearly so (whether entirely enclosed by Essos or squeezed between Essos and Sothoryos).

Unless Sothoryos and Essos are actually the same landmass (akin to the Europe/Asia relationship, perhaps), there has to be a corresponding strait or gap on the other side (and it could be larger or wider). It may not be known if it passes under the Shadow (since it is apparently impossible to do so and return), as sailors would likely shun that area and not sail there under any circumstances. That would also explain why the far eastern coast of Sothoryos is unknown and no explanation of the ocean eastwards from Essos has been attempted (though that ocean would likely have a name somewhere since far north-eastern Essos would also border it).

[Free Northman]

The problem is that GRRM has said there are three known continents, not four. All the evidence points to Asshai being on Essos, not a yet-further-eastern-continent. The Jade Sea has also been described as a circular sea, which certainly suggests it is landlocked or nearly so (whether entirely enclosed by Essos or squeezed between Essos and Sothoryos).

Unless Sothoryos and Essos are actually the same landmass (akin to the Europe/Asia relationship, perhaps), there has to be a corresponding strait or gap on the other side (and it could be larger or wider). It may not be known if it passes under the Shadow (since it is apparently impossible to do so and return), as sailors would likely shun that area and not sail there under any circumstances. That would also explain why the far eastern coast of Sothoryos is unknown and no explanation of the ocean eastwards from Essos has been attempted (though that ocean would likely have a name somewhere since far north-eastern Essos would also border it).

Yes, I see what you mean.

I guess my suggestion can be summarized as instead of having Sothoryos stretch up, you have Essos curving down on the other side of the Jade Sea. I pictured Ashai and the Shadowlands maybe being farther south.

But there's no way to tell, really. Your map is the best world representation that I've yet seen.

[Josephxoxo]

Yi Ti is most likely on Sothyros. It was stated in the first book that Yi Ti was South-East of Qarth.