[Book Spoilers] EP201 Discussion

[Jory]

Patchface isn't mission critical to the current book story, goofy prophetic songs aside. But in the books it seems like he knows something. If he's not cast, then his character is almost a red herring in the book. Not casting Shireen is not the same as not casting Meera and Jojen. So because the book writing isn't done, and George is helping the show runners to sort out and filter stuff, book readers are in effect being spoiled for down the road. For example, regardless of where the Reed children got Bran to in DwD, apparently anyone familiar with Beyond the Wall and the Children of the Forest could have gotten him there. Really? So why wasn't the book written that way? Knowing that ultimately the Reeds don't matter sucks, considering there's still two books to go. And that's just one example.

Part of the enjoyment of this series for the reader is unraveling what matters vs what doesn't. The book adaptation for screen is unraveling it for us - taking out things, changing things, merging things and now altering future events for us, before they've even happened. I'm not overly thrilled about that. That's why straying from the source material (of anything) is problematic and often lacking in satisfaction.

Considering it's a total possibility that Shireen winds up sitting on the Iron Throne, yes, I think her not being cast matters in the same way that the Reeds do.

[kairparavel]

Considering it's a total possibility that Shireen winds up sitting on the Iron Throne, yes, I think her not being cast matters in the same way that the Reeds do.

So this just illustrates again, how the puzzle is being shifted around for us while we're still trying to assemble it.

Naturally, opinions vary reader to reader on the importance of the 'side' characters. I never considered her a future important player, and I could be wrong, but that's the beauty reading and discovering. And now, she doesn't exist in the program, so does she even matter in the books?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Thought D&D said they could not find a White Crow? That was either an albino crow or the CGI people are even better geniuses that I thought possible!

They couldn’t find a white raven. That was a white crow, not a white raven.

Big difference, actually. The crow was way too little. They should’ve CGI’d up the crittersize.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Re: realistic wolves.

It's not quite sufficient to just blow up actual wolves. The problem is that weight increases faster than size – think what happens to the volume of a 1x1x1 cube when you double its surfaces! If you took a regular wolf and doubled it in size, the result would likely be 3-4 times heavier, if not more. This means that its legs need to be considerably more muscular.

Yes, that was bugging me a bunch. A tiger is not just a housecat writ large. The proportions change, because the mass varies as the cube. Somebody isn’t very smart over there, I’m afraid. Sigh.

[boojam]

They couldn’t find a white raven. That was a white crow, not a white raven.

Big difference, actually. The crow was way too little. They should’ve CGI’d up the crittersize.

Yeah I meant Raven, hmm... kind of lucked into that one!

Yeah the CGI people are so good, just make one from scratch, not much screen time anyway.

[johnnysd]

Patchface isn't mission critical to the current book story, goofy prophetic songs aside. But in the books it seems like he knows something. If he's not cast, then his character is almost a red herring in the book. Not casting Shireen is not the same as not casting Meera and Jojen. So because the book writing isn't done, and George is helping the show runners to sort out and filter stuff, book readers are in effect being spoiled for down the road. For example, regardless of where the Reed children got Bran to in DwD, apparently anyone familiar with Beyond the Wall and the Children of the Forest could have gotten him there. Really? So why wasn't the book written that way? Knowing that ultimately the Reeds don't matter sucks, considering there's still two books to go. And that's just one example.

Part of the enjoyment of this series for the reader is unraveling what matters vs what doesn't. The book adaptation for screen is unraveling it for us - taking out things, changing things, merging things and now altering future events for us, before they've even happened. I'm not overly thrilled about that. That's why straying from the source material (of anything) is problematic and often lacking in satisfaction.

Who's to say the Reeds will not be in the series?? Let's face it -they could easily push the Reeds to next year when Bran actually is on his journey. The bonding and all that which happened at Winterfell could easily be moved to next year as Bran travels north.

[boojam]

That's when he was a 15-year-old boy -- or, I guess, early 20 in the show. Still, a young man, without a lot of experience or maturity. It's 17 years on. He's been a veteran of the court. His star was fixed to Jon Arryn, but he learned to be everyone's friend and no man's enemy, etc.

That one mistake with Brandon, that thwarted love for Catelyn, is a large part of what motivates him to be the man he is. To have him so very easily snap over it -- it's not "teasing" to tell the queen she sleeps with her brother -- is just not something the character, either in the book or the TV show, ought to really do. Not without far more provocation than Cersei acting snooty and superior. People have been snooty and superior to Littlefinger for most of his life -- he lets them, it's part of the game with them, and (as he says in the first season) it's how he operates.

I'm never going to be convinced that it's not a bad scene. It's ham-fisted, and it's not necessary in any way.

I thought we were to have a 'willing suspension of age' between the books and the teleplays?

That's ok with me.

Surely B&B have some motivation for doing the deal with Cersei, for later plot purposes?

Seems awkward to me to blurt it like that since , seems, all the VIPs of the court know it, and one would think that Cersei would know they know it.

The undercurrent seems that even Stannis knew before Ned, and LF and Varys way way before that.

Robert seemed to be dumb as a post about it, or didn't care.

Did Joffrey , in the novel, really find out about it? I can't remember.

[boojam]

As Cersei ordered the guards around I was almost expecting something like "turn around, close your eyes... and now... DANCE"

Yeah the guards. What was that all about.

The horse was already out of the barn, or maybe they knew anyway.

Why not "stick you fingers in your ears"?

[boojam]

Blang,

No, it's Mago who gets his throat ripped out on the show. Jhogo=Rakharo on the show, a name they changed early in liming because they thought it was too similar to Drogo. Jhogo is alive and well as of ADwD

But now he can't be mixed up with Drogo. :)

But maybe with Drogon! Cheez, is D&D making these decisions or HBO?

[James Arryn]

When Cersei went so far as the 'close your eyes' thing, I thought she was about to go to the other extreme and sexually tease LF after threatening his life.

Not joking.

[DannySpud]

Who's to say the Reeds will not be in the series?? Let's face it -they could easily push the Reeds to next year when Bran actually is on his journey. The bonding and all that which happened at Winterfell could easily be moved to next year as Bran travels north.

I agree. It's still a little early to completely rule out the Reeds. (Why do we know they definitely won't be in this season. Do they release all the casting information?) However I think it's probably more likely that Osha will take Bran, otherwise they'd not show anything of her for several seasons, and they renamed Asha because her name was similar.

[LauraD]

I loved the note the writers touched upon with Craster (yes too clean, I agree, moving on). He's telling them he's not going to leave his keep, turns to wife (it's Gilly btw), and calls on her to agree. And the girl quotes him,"Better to live free than to die a slave" her face clearly showing that if she doesn't say it, she'll be made to suffer. Brings into question the treatment of women, the nature of slavery and freedom, the nature of power over others in one quick moment.

It's not subtle nor clever, but it was solid and it brought up some of the books' overarching themes.

Made me happy.

Other thing that was enjoyable was the clever way they placed Varys' little birds about King's Landing. Knowing what we know now, I really hope they're doing it on and with purpose.

[seeyouintee]

Yeah, there was good placement of slightly suspicious looking little kids.

[DannySpud]

Other thing that was enjoyable was the clever way they placed Varys' little birds about King's Landing. Knowing what we know now, I really hope they're doing it on and with purpose.

I only noticed the one, in the LF/Cersei scene. Were there more?

[Francis Buck]

I don't know, I thought the direwolves have been badass as hell so far...

[Rockroi]

Non Sequiter:

Am I the only one who, when they read "The North Remembers" immediately thinks, "Pepridge Farm Remembers"? Is it just me? I can't immagine its just me.

[seeyouintee]

I only noticed the one, in the LF/Cersei scene. Were there more?

The kid cleaning up the blood in the beginning looked kind of suspicious too.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

I think no Reeds is kind of a travesty, tbh. I loved the fact that Ned built up such a close relationship with Howland Reed and that the crannogmen, who are very sneaky and useful allies, are so loyal to the Starks. Bran was so fascinated by them and wanted to hear every little thing they had to say, and I found his respect for them a great reflection of his character - his fascination with magic and dreams and things beyond the Wall, AND the similarities he shares with his father - respect for all sorts of people and Lords. Not to mention, Jojen could have looked really cool on HBO. Everyone would be like, "wow, this kid is interesting." Plus, Meera and Jojen were vital in leading Bran beyond the Wall.

I've been more or less satisfied with everything GoT-related up to now. But I will be genuinely pissed if the Reeds are cut out of the story.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Cersei ordering the Lannister household guards to do the two step, dosey-doe was about showing Littlefinger how much power she has. Of course, this is petty and heavy handed, but this is all well within Cersei's personality. I loved it.

[LuisDantas]

The plot seems to be somewhat streamlined - for instance, Cleon Frey is basically renamed as Alton Lannister so that his role is made that much more obvious. And Cersei's propension for gratuitous displays of power is a bit more evident as well.

Joffrey is more driven as well, and more smart than in the books (although I still doubt he has a hand in the hunt for the bastards). I wonder if Edric Storm even exists in this version - it is noteworthy that Cersei failed to mention his name when asked about Robert's known bastards. It would be a shame if they glossed over the murder of Courtney Penrose, since it is such a defining moment for Stannis and Melisandre.