Heresy 9

[Black Crow]

Welcome to version 9 of the Heresy thread, dedicated to discussing the massive contradictions in the historical timelines, exploring the true identity and nature of the Others and their possible relationship with the Starks as Kings of Winter and generally trying to figure out what’s really going on in a world turned much darker and less certain in ADwD.

The earlier versions of the thread are still out there but for anyone coming new to the heresies and wondering where notions like the White Walkers being rangers rather than an invading army intent on killing all living things and the Night’s King being one of the good guys comes from I suggest using the link below to Heresy 6 where we did a series of round-ups and also have the only collection of the text of all of Old Nan’s Tales - the true histories according to GRRM.

http://asoiaf.wester...61905-heresy-6/

We heretics are greatly encouraged by a recent interview with GRRM indicating that in the Winds of Winter we’re going to find out much more about what’s up in the ice in the far north and much more too about the Others, who it seems don’t have a “culture” of their own which would again point to their being human or once having been human, rather than an entirely different species. As a result there’s a decided feeling that while we don’t have all the answers, we are certainly on the right track.

In the meantime you’ll also find that this is a friendly, text-rich thread, for as I observed in an earlier post in order to preach heresy you must know scripture, but while some serious discussion is encouraged, those of us grown old in heresy are always happy to answer questions from the curious coming new to a fascinating game.

[Black Crow]

Well here we are again, and to pick up from Heresy 8, I agree with Lummel's middle option that that the White Walkers are most likely "humans (like craster's sons) that are magically transformed."

I do remain wary however that we've not yet seen any Wood Dancers and on the matter of the obsidian weapons said to have been given each year by the Children, I have a strong suspicion that Sam (and everyone else) read too much into this. Its assumed that they were handed over because they were effective against White Walkers, but its all too easily forgotten these were the only weapons used by the Children/Wood Dancers since they didn't use metal.

However with Martin promising us more and hinting a journey to the far North...

[The Lost Lord]

I agree with Lummel's middle option that that the White Walkers are most likely "humans (like craster's sons) that are magically transformed"

I know it's a fool's game to take hints from the TV series, but I just watched Season 2, Episode 2 and:

In a big change from the books, Craster is actually shown giving one of his sons to a White Walker in a dramatic scene at the very end of the episode. This could have been included merely to add some action to Jon's rather spare S2 plotline -- but maybe they're acting on inside info from GRRM that this is very important.

Something to consider. BTW, the showrunners have said that GRRM is "very involved in terms of the big picture stuff because we talk to him a lot about where the series is going, where the books are going, what the ending is going to be because we want to make sure that we're properly building towards that in the hope that we get to go for as many seasons as it would take to tell the story." So I must imagine that they know the true nature of the Others.

[Frey Pie]

Well here we are again, and to pick up from Heresy 8, I agree with Lummel's middle option that that the White Walkers are most likely "humans (like craster's sons) that are magically transformed."

I do remain wary however that we've not yet seen any Wood Dancers and on the matter of the obsidian weapons said to have been given each year by the Children, I have a strong suspicion that Sam (and everyone else) read too much into this. Its assumed that they were handed over because they were effective against White Walkers, but its all too easily forgotten these were the only weapons used by the Children/Wood Dancers since they didn't use metal.

However with Martin promising us more and hinting a journey to the far North...

Sorry for coming in half way through yer threads(theyl never end :) )but Black Crow i seem to remember you saying before that wev seen no sign of the fighting part or class of the children.But when Brans climbing to BRs lair someone sets the wights on fire.This later turns out to be one of the children supposedly using a torch.However is it not reasonable to think that as there was more then one set on fire and this allowed Bran to gain the lair that either this child is extremely quick or perhaps has some kind of control over fire?

Apologies if already discussed but just rereading and it stuck out

[Elaena Targaryen]

I know it's a fool's game to take hints from the TV series, but I just watched Season 2, Episode 2 and:

How did you watch episode 2? That's not fair!!! I want to watch it too!!! :bawl:

In a big change from the books, Craster is actually shown giving one of his sons to a White Walker in a dramatic scene at the very end of the episode. This could have been included merely to add some action to Jon's rather spare S2 plotline -- but maybe they're acting on inside info from GRRM that this is very important.

Yes I knew they were putting this in the show (and Jon sees this right?) It is important but still I'm surprised about it and I want to read way too much into it and I really don't now why so I won't. :)

[Elaena Targaryen]

Btw, thank the gods they finally approved the new thread! What in seven hells took so long? I was getting stressed out and I missed the discussion, even when I only read the thread. This is my favorite so thanks Black Crow (and thanks to the mods too).

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I know it's a fool's game to take hints from the TV series, but I just watched Season 2, Episode 2 and:

In a big change from the books, Craster is actually shown giving one of his sons to a White Walker in a dramatic scene at the very end of the episode. This could have been included merely to add some action to Jon's rather spare S2 plotline -- but maybe they're acting on inside info from GRRM that this is very important.

By that, do you mean

TO a White Walker, as in he physically hands a child over to a "living" White Walker, or he gives the child "To the White Walkers" via sacrifice/exposure?

[The Lost Lord]

By that, do you mean

Craster leaves the baby outside. We see from far away, through the trees, a White Walker show up and pick up the baby. Jon runs with his sword to try and confront it, but Craster knocks out Jon. End of episode.

[lokisnow]

I loved a maid as white as winter,

with moonglow in her hair.

There seems to be a connection (from this line of song Tyrion remembers) to the Thief and the Moonmaid. Could this be an origin myth, how men came to be, that man stole woman from the gods (rather than being from a rib or stealing fire, heh, instead of being punished with childbirth/hard-labor, is punished with winter, stole winter). I think the theif and the moonmaid may be very important, explaining wildling marraige practices, the danger of bastards, and tie into Ramsey and Roose's odd and old rituals...

Note that most passionate and impactful romances of the series are all variants of the ancient rites of marraige. Rhaegar stole Lyanna, Tyrion stole Tysha, Jon stole Ygritte.

Also interesting, some of the most repellant characters of the series are bastards: Joffrey, Ramsey, Craster. And Jon Snow is not a bastard, most like, so perhaps Martin is setting up an old switcheroo, where the old and bigoted beliefs in something like black blood of bastards has actual merit, that fate exists in his world and some men are fated by ill birth to ill fortune... It's not that they're inherently evil, but that they're drawn to it like a moth to flame. Our expectation is that the belief about the badness of bastards is circumstantial and superstition, because such beliefs are like that in our world. it would be marvelous if after using Jon as a Red Herring, Martin completely upended the audiences understanding and expectations of what it means to live in a world where fate and magic are real and may condemn some in incredibly unpleasant ways... Tommen may yet prove to be the worst of them all. *evilgrin*

Speaking of bastards, anyone else seem to think there was a STRONG familial resemblance between Craster and Mormont in the Season 2 premiere?

Regarding the White Walkers and dragonglass... Quaithe scornfully points out that the fire-ladder summoner/climber could not even summon fire from dragonglass before Dany's Dragons were born. We know that Dragons are fire made flesh, perhaps Dragonglass is fire made earth, hence why it is such a powerful weapon. Note the very first time Jon looks at the dragonglass, the chapter after finding the cache,

"Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass."

It's also because we've been told that dragons are fire made flesh that I think the white walkers (ice/water made flesh) are creatures, an inverse, if you will. (in the Bran chapter where Theon invades, Summer howls at the walls of winterfell to 'wake sleepers' but the dead man rock did not respond... a connection to Giants perhaps, and yet another possible variant on forces of nature made flesh)

That beggars the question about Craster and the Sacrifices he makes... Dany woke dragons by exchanging three lives for dragonlives. Her fetus' life was exchanged to the eggs long before Khal Drogo took ill, Miri Maz Dur was the second life, and Dany herself was the third (but perhaps being willing makes all the difference, is sacrificing her own life as big a sacrifice as Azor Ahai sacrificing his wife or Craster sacrificing his sons?

regarding Melisandre, Davos, perhaps correctly, identifies her as death (which works thematically, as the God The Stranger is Death, and Melisandre is certainly a Stranger),

"This time it is death, in the shape of Melisande of Asshai".

This seems yet more evidence that she is undead, probably a burned corpse under all that glamour (I love the idea brought up at the end of the last thread that she occasionally changes bodies, an inverse of the white mist (fire and smoke?). Note that Melisandre describes herself as "I am a knight of sorts myself." White Walkers could very well be the knights of Ice and red priests the knights of fire, avatars brought to life by the white mist or the red flame...

Melisandre risked an immense amount going on the small boat with Davos I think,

"Melisandre huddled upon a thwart, lost in the folds of a dark red cloak that covered her from head to heels, her face a paleness beneath the cowl. Davos loved the water."

Note the Very Deliberate literary contrast here. GRRM doesn't tell us or suggest that Melisandre is deathly afraid, but the implication is right there. It's not something that Davos would think, but by contrasting this shrunken and shivering image of Melisandre against a sentance as simple as "Davos loved the water" we the reader immediately get that Melisandre HATES the water, fears it--and note that Martin ends the paragraph by having Melisandre vocalize what she is feeling by projecting it onto Davos, "I can smell the fear on you, ser knight." (also remember that Gilly tells Sam the trees have no power out on the ocean, perhaps Rhloor is equally weak out on the sea, Martin ultimately ends the following exchange by pointing out the waning of the fires...)

From what Martin has said about disliking simplistic good and evil representations and wanting to work in shades of gray, the exchange that follows is of immense thematic importance, imo, and does well to situate the reader. If Martin distrusts simplistic good and evil, then we should take from this that Melisandre is not just untrustworthy, but ultimately flat out wrong. And that the shadow babies may very well be a form of evil (though perhaps not a simplistic evil, or even inherently evil, but used for evil deeds).

"are you a good man, Davos Seaworth?" she asked.

Would a good man be doing this? "I am a man," he said. "I am kind to my wife, but I have known other women. I have tried to be a father to my sons, to help make them a place in this world. Aye, I've broken laws, but I never felt evil until tonight. I would say my parts are mixed, m'lady. Good and bad."

"a gray man, she said. "Neither white nor black, but partaking of both. Is that what you are, Ser Davos?"

"What if I am? It seems to me that most men are grey."

"If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil."

The fires behind them had melted into one vague glow against the black sky and the land was almost out of sight.

***

There was a suggestion that Varys works for the children (the COTF, not the children of the realm). That wouldn't jive with his stated hatred of sorcery. On the other hand, it was pretty clearly a warlock that took his manhood and used it for dread magicks (the fire turned to blue flame, a symbol of the warlocks of Qarth), there's a good deal of textual evidence that the warlocks are an inversion of the children, considering how the chapters investigating their temples are structured so similarly. So perhaps its possible that Varys allied with the children in the hopes of getting back at Qarth. Ironically, Tyrion's and Varys' alliance would would have another layer, as Tyrion seems to invoke some of the bad names for people of small stature in high places (I suggested earlier that Bran the Builder was one of the children, but perhaps he was like Tyrion, just a genius dwarf who founded a dynasty, if history moves in cycles then perhaps Tyrion--Sansa's Husband--is Bran the Builder come again...),

"Only me, the one they hate." He laughed again. "The dwarf, the evil counselor, the twisted little monkey demon. I'm all that stands between them and chaos."

it's entirely possible that the twisted little monkey demons of the COTF are all that stands between men and chaos...

***

The raven when Quorin and Mormont meet says "waits" "waits" and then "die" five times. Any chance the raven was trying to say Wights instead of Waits?

"The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men... and the Starks."

Sounds like red meat for black crow, Quorin separates the First Men and the Starks as though the separation were significant.

[Jojen]

Well here we are again, and to pick up from Heresy 8, I agree with Lummel's middle option that that the White Walkers are most likely "humans (like craster's sons) that are magically transformed."

I do remain wary however that we've not yet seen any Wood Dancers and on the matter of the obsidian weapons said to have been given each year by the Children, I have a strong suspicion that Sam (and everyone else) read too much into this. Its assumed that they were handed over because they were effective against White Walkers, but its all too easily forgotten these were the only weapons used by the Children/Wood Dancers since they didn't use metal.

However with Martin promising us more and hinting a journey to the far North...

Working from the idea that the Children/Wood Dancers only used stone-based weapons, I think it's entirely possible that rather than giving the obsidian blades to the NW as a gift, they were instead disarming themselves as a gesture of continuing goodwill. As you say, the fact that they are effective against the WW is more incidental to the act of leaving them for the NW to find, since we don't know yet how they were originally intended to be used.

Leaf says the Children were never numerous, so it would stand to reason that their store of weapons would likewise be small. How many could there be when they first started leaving the blades for the NW? Possibly, they were replacing those they gave up, since if there are volcanoes in the Lands of Always Winter, they'd have other sources of obsidian for making new weapons if they needed them.

[Francis Buck]

Working from the idea that the Children/Wood Dancers only used stone-based weapons, I think it's entirely possible that rather than giving the obsidian blades to the NW as a gift, they were instead disarming themselves as a gesture of continuing goodwill. As you say, the fact that they are effective against the WW is more incidental to the act of leaving them for the NW to find, since we don't know yet how they were originally intended to be used.

Leaf says the Children were never numerous, so it would stand to reason that their store of weapons would likewise be small. How many could there be when they first started leaving the blades for the NW? Possibly, they were replacing those they gave up, since if there are volcanoes in the Lands of Always Winter, they'd have other sources of obsidian for making new weapons if they needed them.

I like this. For me, the idea of the Children giving away the only weapon proven to be effective against the Others has been a bit of knot in my otherwise fairly confident stance that the Children are, in some form or another, connected to the existence of the Others in the first place. This is probably the best explanation I've seen for it yet, especially if we assume the Others are descendants of the First Men (something I'm also fairly confident in).

As for the ending of episode two of the series, I would also consider it fairly strong evidence towards the idea that the Others are some form of "magically altered" human. I find it hard to believe the showrunners would include something like this if it was only meant to be an off-hand rumor in the series itself. The question is, why do the Others need human babies specifically? Why can't simply turn wights into White Walkers? Do potential "members" need to be willing? Do they need to be young? The only other option I can see is that they're used as blood sacrifices in the creation of White Walkers, but even so, logic dictates that you would still need a human "host" in order to make a White Walker in the first place. Maybe they're one in the same? The Other's connection with the undead, combined with the general recurring theme of resurrection and undeath throughout the series, may indicate that the Others are immortal beings who were once normal humans, but have had all the "fire of life" sucked out of them.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

How again did you see episode 2, Lost Lord? Please do tell.

If I could pick one thing that's alluded to in the books but not shown that I would LOVE to have seen take place, it would be Craster's sacrifice of sons. A act of much import, I say, and even more significance.... ((Side note, I believe the wights to be minions of the Others.... I am also pretty sure the wights would've torn Gilly & her sons to little bits.... I do NOT believe that is what the Others do w/ Craster's sons))

If what you say is true, I'm very very very very excited.

[Fire Eater]

Melisandre risked an immense amount going on the small boat with Davos I think, Note the Very Deliberate literary contrast here. GRRM doesn't tell us or suggest that Melisandre is deathly afraid, but the implication is right there. It's not something that Davos would think, but by contrasting this shrunken and shivering image of Melisandre against a sentance as simple as "Davos loved the water" we the reader immediately get that Melisandre HATES the water, fears it--and note that Martin ends the paragraph by having Melisandre vocalize what she is feeling by projecting it onto Davos, "I can smell the fear on you, ser knight." (also remember that Gilly tells Sam the trees have no power out on the ocean, perhaps Rhloor is equally weak out on the sea, Martin ultimately ends the following exchange by pointing out the waning of the fires...)

I have no trouble agreeing with the idea that Mel loathes water as water is melted ice. The CotF use the "Hammer of the Waters," and their power is based in the elements (water and plants) that are the opposite of Mel's (blood and fire), so one can assume as the Ghost of High Heart saying the weirwoods don't allow fire at High Heart, Mel opposes water.

@Francis Buck

It is possible that the Others are magically altered humans. The Others could behave in a manner similar to the aliens in the Alien series, when an alien comes across someone they sometimes bring them back to their lair to serve as hosts for infant aliens, the Others could rely on humans for their continued existence. We don't know how many Others there are officially, but there numbers might be growing.

[redriver]

I would say the Others want souls because that's what they are-souls in ice.Gilly-"They've come for the life.Babies stink o' life"

I'm intrigued by references to cold mist when they are around or when wights attack.Iirc Mormont asks "How do you fight that?".

The suggestion is that the Others are essentially non corporeal but only take on human form when they choose to.

This reminds me of the Old Nan tale of morning mist as the Others going home.

This raises the possibility that Sam may not have killed the Other,just returned it to mist.

This too,would fit with the idea that life is not extinguished-it just returns to natural elements.

I've also been toying with the idea that all human sacrifice ends up with more souls for the Others,including those given to R'hllor.No proof as yet,but it would be ironic.

[Fire Eater]

This raises the possibility that Sam may not have killed the Other,just returned it to mist.

Not to sound snarky, but then what was the cold puddle it left behind after it melted like the Wicked Witch of the West, did he sh!t himself?

I agree that the Others may take on their humanoid form at will, otherwise they are in a mist form, which could be their primary form. The mist freezes into ice when they choose to take solid form, when they become mist again their armor, swords and bodies evaporate.

[redriver]

Not to sound snarky, but then what was the cold puddle it left behind after it melted like the Wicked Witch of the West, did he sh!t himself?

I agree that the Others may take on their humanoid form at will, otherwise they are in a mist form, which could be their primary form. The mist freezes into ice when they choose to take solid form, when they become mist again their armor, swords and bodies evaporate.

Lol, no worries.Ice-water-mist.

"In twenty hearbeats it's flesh was gone.swirling away in a fine white mist"-Sam,ASoS.

ETA-Perhaps the puddle was the armour and the mist,the soul?

[lokisnow]

I think the reason the White Walkers need Craster's son, and not just any dead person is that they need a willing sacrifice.

[Lummel]

...The question is, why do the Others need human babies specifically? Why can't simply turn wights into White Walkers? Do potential "members" need to be willing? Do they need to be young? ...

I think the point is that they are alive - the wights aren't. We know the wights are limited in various ways, we know that there is power in blood and presumably there is more that you can do magically to a baby than a physically more mature human specimen.

More interesting is that Craster is only giving sons and the mention of the white walkers as having no culture, so probably they can only reproduce and continue themselves through the magical transformation of babies. I wonder how many there are of them - maybe hundreds or even fewer?

I think the reason the White Walkers need Craster's son, and not just any dead person is that they need a willing sacrifice.

we keep coming round to the willing sacrifice, it must be one of our main themes!

[redriver]

I'm not sure about "willing" sacrifices,babies hardly have freedom of choice in the matter.

I could go with live sacrifices.I had imagined Craster simply left the boy babies out in the cold.

[eivers]

Of course their is the very very remote possible that they aren't sacrifices at all. All we really know is that Craster leaves the babies out for the others. What the Others do with the babies is unknown, but I would find it a little predictable if the babies were used to create other...well Others.