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[Book Spoilers] Ep 201 Discussion Part 2

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and why can't a Sand Snake be white exactly? The show been veering off book so much, why can't ye old Dorne boy charm himself a Highgarden milkmaid and get a white daughter?

as for Craster - ok, he doesn't need to be filthy looking, as in dirty. My bad. BUT he still doesn't sound or look creepy and bastardly and just batshit as the book version... If the scene before didn't bring up daughter-fucking and the mystery of what happens to the sons... I never would have known the guy is batshit from the way he holds himself

Watch Frey - in first 5 seconds all the creep~factors are shown loud and clear. Craster, not so much

That was just one of the points I thought made little sense. The producers said that they changed the character because they liked the actress (who is German and can't speak without an accent) and I can't imagine that they want to change the events of the end of ASOS.

As for Craster, you give a perfectly good reason why he's not like that. Because he would be Walder Frey the second. Therefor I don't think it matters much. He still has insanely creepy habits and is not very pleasant to be around.

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I think they did a phenomenal jobs with the direwolves. I saw the Grey Wind scene and the Ghost scene from Episode 2, although you can tell that they aren't actually there, they did an incredible job and I couldn't have hoped for anything better.

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I always pictured Craster as pretty clean......given that he has dozens of daughter/wife's waiting on him hand and foot. If I had to pick fault, it'd be that he didn't seem quite as begrudging of the NW as in the book, where you clearly get the impression that if it weren't for the Gods he keeps, he wouldn't even entertain housing them all at his house.

All this direwolf talk.........not enough talk of how Drogon looked AMAZING. I literally couldn't pick fault with it, it was one of the most flawless bits of CG I've ever seen.

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Does anyone else think that they are building up Ros to take the place of Chataya? Also I noticed they cut out Tyrion moving Shae to a random brothel as soon as he gets to KL. I hope they are able to fully portray Tyrion's cunning and super sneaky-ness. WTF was with that whole Craster-Jon stuff? All that happened in the book was Craster saying "This one has the look of a Stark." Guess they need to give you a reason to hate Craster, besides the whole molesting all of his children/doing something shady with the male children. I think if they had made Craster as weird looking as I do from the book, plus having those lines, people would just say WTF Jeor, why would you take this guy's advice? The way they showed him, he just looked like a really crappy Lord, or even a Ser. Definatly not one of the free-people.

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Episode 11 turned out to be brilliant, nearly flawless, but I think I enjoy this thread even more.

Some of the objections raised are absolutely hilarious. My favorites so far are the 'Craster's just not filthy enough!' objection (because an incestuous wildling shouldn't be capable of grooming himself, and of course...IT'S UNLIKE THE BOOK CRASTER - UNNECESSARY CHANGE, UNNECESSARY CHANGE!!!); also the objection where one of the commentors absolutely lost their shit over Dany's horse dying. Just try reading that in the Comic Book Guy's voice. :lol:

Next favorite objection: the outrage over the Cersie/Littlefinger scene. It was an awesome scene that altered their characters for the better. It made Littlefinger less of a demigod omniscent plotter and more human. And it continued to make Cersei's character far more interesting and entertaining than in the books. But it's not book Cersei or Littlefinger, so it completely ruins everything and diminishes the quality of the show by a factor of warp ten!

Most confusing objection: that the direwolf looked too CGI, because I honestly could not see it. It looked about as realistic as you could get.

Also enjoying reading the numerous temper tantrums over Catelyn's change - another change from the books that is for the better, although not from the nitpicker's POV.

Anyway, couldn't help tweaking some noses, though it's probably unnecessary because enough people are perfectly capable of working themselves up in a lather on their own. Nitpickers make the barren hours absent a new GoT episode worth living. There's no way to say this without coming off as condescening, because, well, it is condescening, but thank you guys so much, and please continue unleashing the rage.

Can't wait to see what other sacriligeous, ruinous changes the show is going to make in the future. Just so long as Renly takes only a single bite from his peach, because two bites would be not only gratuitous but destroy all the good will I have towards the show. No bites at all is just beyond contemplating, as it would circumvent the entire significance of the series as a whole.

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Most confusing objection: that the direwolf looked too CGI, because I honestly could not see it. It looked about as realistic as you could get.

That’s because they were real, not CGI. They were real canines (and perhaps even at least partly Canus lupus of the non-familiaris variety) in a composited scene, but blown up larger.

That’s why they had the wrong proportions. They have the proportions of a creature of far less mass than they should have had at their projected size. Stockier legs and such. Compare the silhouettes of a housecat and a tiger at the same size to see what I mean.

However, that would have been extremely difficult to fix, because now you really would need CGI, which would have been really expensive and surely wouldn’t have looked as good as the real thing unless they put Gollum-levels of money into it.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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That’s because they were real, not CGI. They were real canines (and perhaps even at least partly Canus lupus of the non-familiaris variety) in a composited scene, but blown up larger.

That’s why they had the wrong proportions. They have the proportions of a creature of far less mass than they should have had at their projected size. Stockier legs and such. Compare the silhouettes of a housecat and a tiger at the same size to see what I mean.

However, that would have been extremely difficult to fix, because now you really would need CGI, which would have been really expensive and surely wouldn’t have looked as good as the real thing unless they put Gollum-levels of money into it.

Yes, and the dire wolves in ASOIAF still don't look like the dire wolves in our history, nor are they seemingly thought up with a fully realistic base, so there's not any great story incentive to fiddle with the wolves they are using.

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That’s because they were real, not CGI. They were real canines (and perhaps even at least partly Canus lupus of the non-familiaris variety) in a composited scene, but blown up larger.

That’s why they had the wrong proportions. They have the proportions of a creature of far less mass than they should have had at their projected size. Stockier legs and such. Compare the silhouettes of a housecat and a tiger at the same size to see what I mean.

Nice job on agreeing and then missing the point in one fell swoop.

As far as thickness of legs, it's a silly nitpick to make. Besides, many larger animals have remarkably slender legs for the mass/size they are carrying. Horses, Giraffes, and Moose are prime examples.

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I thought Craster looked so healthy was a good choice for television. He's in a dire place where every other wildling has fled. The conditions are so harsh that even the Night's Watch looks haggard. Here in the middle of all this misery is Craster fat and happy? How is he doing so well? Why hasn't he fled from the same dangers? It's not exactly a fortress and he seems unconcerned by attacks, supernatural or not. To first time viewers all this would give a distinct impression that something is very off here. Things just don't add up and that is what the show wants. If your purpose is to give a sense to tv viewers that Craster has pulled a Faust than the choice is a smart one.

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For those who are arguing the wolves -- they are real wolves the show is using. Not CGI models. They composite them into the scenes digitally. This is why their proportions are like those of real wolves.

Proportion problems aside, these wolves look a lot more realistic than TV-grade models would have looked. I'm not complaining.

That is interesting and has been done before, but I did not know they had used Canis lupus as the base model, tho I know Grey wolves are available as 'animal actors'.

Now Canis dirus is larger than Canis lupus, but not by a lot.

Still having looked at the great fossil collection in LA they do have more massive heads , well in a way, they are more massive and a bit taller than Grey wolves.

In the cases on the show the heads looked right, in the scene with Jamie the shoulder height looked right too.

Still can't tell if they have the right morphology compared to the modern wolf, we don't see a long or medium , well a clear one, of their side profile.

Not making them monstrous is the correct touch. That dead one in the first season was too big, but then wasn't it Theon who said it was freakish?

Grey wolves were faster and out competed the dire in our world.

George's world seems a little different.

(We have yet to see , even in the books?, I think, a Shadow Cat, was thinking the American Lion (Panthera atrox ) would make a great model , they were 25 percent larger than the modern African lion. )

Edited by boojam

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Episode 11 turned out to be brilliant, nearly flawless, but I think I enjoy this thread even more.

Some of the objections raised are absolutely hilarious. My favorites so far are the 'Craster's just not filthy enough!' objection (because an incestuous wildling shouldn't be capable of grooming himself, and of course...IT'S UNLIKE THE BOOK CRASTER - UNNECESSARY CHANGE, UNNECESSARY CHANGE!!!); also the objection where one of the commentors absolutely lost their shit over Dany's horse dying. Just try reading that in the Comic Book Guy's voice. :lol:

Next favorite objection: the outrage over the Cersie/Littlefinger scene. It was an awesome scene that altered their characters for the better. It made Littlefinger less of a demigod omniscent plotter and more human. And it continued to make Cersei's character far more interesting and entertaining than in the books. But it's not book Cersei or Littlefinger, so it completely ruins everything and diminishes the quality of the show by a factor of warp ten!

Most confusing objection: that the direwolf looked too CGI, because I honestly could not see it. It looked about as realistic as you could get.

Also enjoying reading the numerous temper tantrums over Catelyn's change - another change from the books that is for the better, although not from the nitpicker's POV.

Anyway, couldn't help tweaking some noses, though it's probably unnecessary because enough people are perfectly capable of working themselves up in a lather on their own. Nitpickers make the barren hours absent a new GoT episode worth living. There's no way to say this without coming off as condescening, because, well, it is condescening, but thank you guys so much, and please continue unleashing the rage.

Can't wait to see what other sacriligeous, ruinous changes the show is going to make in the future. Just so long as Renly takes only a single bite from his peach, because two bites would be not only gratuitous but destroy all the good will I have towards the show. No bites at all is just beyond contemplating, as it would circumvent the entire significance of the series as a whole.

My other "favorite" is Ros gearing up to take the place of Arya/Jeyne Poole. Amazing....lol

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Okay, I wasn't going to post because these threads were making me want to scratch my eyes out, but Humble Asskicker saved the day. I can't even begin to contemplate the reaction if Renly and Margaery start fucking like dogs. Anyways, I might as well join the fray.

I continue to think Jack Gleeson is the greatest thing to ever hit television. That kid is seriously fucking brilliant. Not only was he wonderful in the Ser Dontos scene ('did you like that?), but the throneroom scene with Cersei was totally amazing. I thought Lena Heady was really fantastic in that scene as well, because you could see Cersei trying to remain calm and keep a straight face, while also 1) having her heart crushed by her own son, and 2) realizing just a little bit that she has no control over her son and he is in fact a monster.

I thought they did a good job of sticking to GRRMs love of parallelism, since the violent, cruel, and twisted mother-son interaction of Joffery and Cersei was preceded by the scene with Robb and Catelyn, where Catelyn respects her son's role as king and Robb comforts and supports his mother, exhibiting just how a loyal and loving family is supposed to operate. God, those poor Starks.

As for Cersei, I thought the Cersei/Littlefinger scene was fine. The Littlefinger in action there was the exact same Littlefinger we saw throughout the first season, a creepy, information hoarding, extremely confident douche. The show has to have him be like that for reasons of suspense, otherwise, when we get to the big Littlefinger 'reveal,' the audience will have been totally thrown for a loop and will likely be pissed and WTFing. What he says with Cersei is perfectly in line with what he said to Renly at the joust and what he revealed to Varys. On top of that, the fantastic 'power is power' line in that scene was one of my favorite parts of the episode.

One other thing about Cersei. Her dress at the beginning of the episode in the small council meeting was so gorgeous I could hardly pay attention to what was going on. I kept wanting her to get up so I could see the whole thing. (Also another nice contrast with Catelyn who was still wearing that same green dress). Overall, the costumes were stellar. Joffery's outfit was stunning. They've really raised the bar this time. If they don't get nominated for costume awards I am going to go on a rampage.

The design in general was impressive, as was to be expected, what with the giant wooden statues of the Seven, Craster's Keep, and the map table at Dragonstone. Very cool stuff.

I felt fine with the wolves, especially because I was too busy being damn relieved that they didn't look like the Twilight wolves. I barely had time to register whether or not they met the actual laws of physics in their confirmation, even! Crazy, I know. I've already said it, but the dragon - holy shit. I want one! Baby Drogon looked totally convincing to me, very real. Definitely better than Newborn Drogon from last year. I hope we get lots of dragon appearances in the rest of the season because I was so blown over by that one minute.

Craster was fine with me, and his keep was sufficiently perverted. I have to disagree with most complainers and with Milk Steak, although I like his thinking. There is no way in hell that any non-book reader will look at Craster and think he is fat and happy and clean. Get real, people.

I'm fine with Ros being the new Chataya. No problem. I even liked that they referrenced the infamous sexposition scene from last year. Very tongue in cheek.

The bastard slaughter at the end was great - I didn't see it coming at all and it was pretty heart-rending. That one gut-twisting scene with the Guard carrying the infant by its leg, oh my fucking god. I also liked that one guardsman refused to kill the baby and was weeping in a later scene. My assumption that he'll be Jacelyn Bywater. And the switchover to Gendry was perfectly done. I can't wait to see more of his and Arya's story.

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I have not seen much comment about Brandon and random Northern lord scene - what was that about? Who was that guy, really? I got the feeling that this scene was important only to hear Luwin say that a Lord must sometimes listen to what he does not want to.

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I have not seen much comment about Brandon and random Northern lord scene - what was that about? Who was that guy, really? I got the feeling that this scene was important only to hear Luwin say that a Lord must sometimes listen to what he does not want to.

To me it seemed like a way to establish for viewers what the situation was in Winterfell, with no parents and elder siblings. Also as a way to indicate how all the strong and able bodied men have been pulled out of the north, which will of course be relevent when Theon comes.

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That’s why they had the wrong proportions. They have the proportions of a creature of far less mass than they should have had at their projected size. Stockier legs and such. Compare the silhouettes of a housecat and a tiger at the same size to see what I mean.

There's lots of things in the books/show that break various laws of nature - the size of the wall, the random season length, dragons, etc. Skinny legs on the direwolves is low on the list...

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I have not seen much comment about Brandon and random Northern lord scene - what was that about? Who was that guy, really? I got the feeling that this scene was important only to hear Luwin say that a Lord must sometimes listen to what he does not want to.

I think the scene accomplished quite a lot, actually. It shows that Bran is still in Winterfell, that his family is gone, that he wants to do/be something/somewhere else, that many men have left the north due to the war, that the war is not only affecting the south, it reminds us of Stark's position as liege lord, and it serves as a segue to the wolf stuff, which in turn is nicely followed by the scene with Osha, Hodor and Bran.

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I think the scene accomplished quite a lot, actually. It shows that Bran is still in Winterfell, that his family is gone, that he wants to do/be something/somewhere else, that many men have left the north due to the war, that the war is not only affecting the south, it reminds us of Stark's position as liege lord, and it serves as a segue to the wolf stuff, which in turn is nicely followed by the scene with Osha, Hodor and Bran.

Not sure about this...in the books it also has a logical follow up because the Reeds show up and they teach him about warging etc. etc. Without the Reeds, Bran listening to Northern lords could have been cut. They could have jumped straight to the dream sequence since Osha is the replacement of the Reeds as tutors. It would still show that Bran is alone in Winterfell. Plus, this would have made room for a better introduction to Dragonstone (stannis reading ned's letter for instance), something which could have been handled better.

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Just rewatched Ep 201 on HBOGO, and I know it's nitpicking but I very much would have liked if in Season 1 Episode 10 they left in Tywin's full comment about all the follies that he percieves King Joffrey has commited in terms of relieving Ser Barriston Selmy of service. I very much enjoyed in COK when Tyrion brings up to Cersei the possibility of Ser Barriston joining one of the other Kings forces, and Cersei not even considering that possibility and that fact that Barriston has such a powerful name being such a storied knight. But overall still a very enjoyable episode and the visuals and cinematography are really first rate IMHO.

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