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[Book Spoilers] Ep 201 Discussion Part 2

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One thing I thought was odd, during the purge of Robert's bastards, they had a shot where there was a crowd trying to push through a barrier of guards, whilst a baby was carried across, I didn't really get why they had that.

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One thing I thought was odd, during the purge of Robert's bastards, they had a shot where there was a crowd trying to push through a barrier of guards, whilst a baby was carried across, I didn't really get why they had that.

My take was that the guards snatched that baby and killed it, right there in public. The crowd is enraged enough to rise up in anger, even against armed and brutal Lannister guards--which means trouble is coming for the ruling class. When enough ordinary people become angry enough, no rulers can stand against them for long.

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Yes, pretty much sowing the seeds for the riot that will happen later after Myrcella is sent to Dorne. Not only is the king a tyrant, they are hungry, the king and his council are not lifting a finger to help them, a war is going on, rumors(or rather truths) are spreading about the Lannisters, and to top it off they slaughtered a bunch of innocent babies and children. If I were one of the commoners in KL, I would be pretty enraged at this point too.

If anything, its to foreshadow the future riot and I can't be the only one looking forward to Joff getting shit flung at his face and of course, "BROTHERFUCKER!".

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My take was that the guards snatched that baby and killed it, right there in public. The crowd is enraged enough to rise up in anger, even against armed and brutal Lannister guards--which means trouble is coming for the ruling class. When enough ordinary people become angry enough, no rulers can stand against them for long.

I assumed that was the reason for it but I thought it was pretty strange

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I assumed that was the reason for it but I thought it was pretty strange

Everyone has their own take on things, of course. But to me, that seemed a very important moment--until now, all the problems and issues of the Westeros 'ruling classes,' the Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, etc. have revolved around themselves and their peers, their own power games with and against one another. But now, with that single scene, we see a whole huge segment of the population that has largely been ignored by the ruling classes, until now. The people. And the people are enraged.

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Why did they make the Direwolves so huge compare to serie 1? Is it because the fans complained? because really it is not like years have passed between the end of season 1 and the begining of season 2. Drogon is still small but suddenlly the wolves have doubled in size. I am not complaining about their size, just wondering.

Remember that the direwolves are considerably older than the dragon hatchlings, and that a canine grows a great deal in his first year, very quickly. The hatchlings are all just newborns right now; the wolf cubs are not. Dragons in A Song of Ice and Fire apparently have a growth rate that is directly tied to how much they are fed, and perhaps also to whether they are caged or free.

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Everyone has their own take on things, of course. But to me, that seemed a very important moment--until now, all the problems and issues of the Westeros 'ruling classes,' the Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, etc. have revolved around themselves and their peers, their own power games with and against one another. But now, with that single scene, we see a whole huge segment of the population that has largely been ignored by the ruling classes, until now. The people. And the people are enraged.

True but I was annoyed because the peasants in the book don't get enraged because of the killing of children?

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As I understood it, it's Joffrey killing the bastards in the show.

Some people think it is Joffrey. I don't understand why. For one thing, Joffrey lacks the information about where to find the bastards. For another, it would require a bit of research and planning that goes against the grain of his whining ways.

I think it's Joffery's idea being carried out by Cersei.

One thing I thought was odd, during the purge of Robert's bastards, they had a shot where there was a crowd trying to push through a barrier of guards, whilst a baby was carried across, I didn't really get why they had that.

The Gold Cloak was carrying the baby away... presumably to kill it. It was filmed that way for dramatic effect. Sort of like how we first see Cersei's eye through a bird cage. Or the Direwolf circling Jamie's cage.

Edited by RoamingRonin

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True but I was annoyed because the peasants in the book don't get enraged because of the killing of children?

Yeah, but don't we not see the killings in the books? I quite like the unrest as a little hint of things to come. (Was anyone else reminded of the Hunger Games?)

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I was watching this again and a line sounded odd to me out of the Night Watch scene where Craster is mocking Mormont and the Old Bear looks at him and says 'we chose different paths'. What's that about? I know Craster was born from a wildling and crow so maybe it's saying they gave him a chance to join the Watch and he refused but it sounded more personal than that. I wouldn't have thought of Mormont as a ranger before he became LC, he doesn't come across being too familiar with the land beyond the wall as well as how late in his life he joined so i wouldn't expect him to know Craster.

The crazy thought I had seeing them sit next to each other was how much they looked alike in their builds with Craster looking like he could be Mormont's younger brother. Maybe it's nothing at all but i could see see them fleshing out Mormont's role a bit considering what a great actor they got to play him. He's going to die all too soon as it is.

Edited by bloodymime

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That's when he was a 15-year-old boy -- or, I guess, early 20 in the show. Still, a young man, without a lot of experience or maturity. It's 17 years on. He's been a veteran of the court. His star was fixed to Jon Arryn, but he learned to be everyone's friend and no man's enemy, etc.

That one mistake with Brandon, that thwarted love for Catelyn, is a large part of what motivates him to be the man he is. To have him so very easily snap over it -- it's not "teasing" to tell the queen she sleeps with her brother -- is just not something the character, either in the book or the TV show, ought to really do. Not without far more provocation than Cersei acting snooty and superior. People have been snooty and superior to Littlefinger for most of his life -- he lets them, it's part of the game with them, and (as he says in the first season) it's how he operates.

I'm never going to be convinced that it's not a bad scene. It's ham-fisted, and it's not necessary in any way.

Hey Ran,

Thanks for the reply and sorry I was so late in getting back to you. I have been quite busy lately!

Anyway, two points. Firstly, I never said he was teasing anyone. LF never does anything for no reason (even though his reasons in this case were clearly not thought out properly). I said and still say that it was a poorly veiled threat. However, it wasn't as serious a mistake as you are making out. Remember that they altered the time-line of Stannis's letter reaching people - Robb had seen it before he sent his peace offer. I believe this scene happened after that so we can assume that it had reached KL as well by then. Hence, not only did the privileged people know but the common people were discussing it as well. In other words, LF wasn't disclosing a national secret as he was saying nothing that Stannis hadn't said before him. While it was still a mistake that he made (that you are harping on about) by underestimating Cersei and perhaps feeling he could use her somehow by manipulating his knowledge, it wasn't as serious a mistake as all that (although admittedly it could have had disastrous consequences). Now I don't see how LF trying to get Cersei under his thumb was so character-breaking. We don't know his plans yet but he seemed interested in sharing power with Ned in AGoT and only double-crossed him when Ned wasn't interested. Anyway, I accept that it (quite obviously) wasn't one of those suave moves we expect from LF but let's not blow it out of proportion here... Martin never intended LF to be portrayed as a God that can do no wrong. Speaking as someone who deals with cold and calculating people a lot, even they aren't machines. And this is exactly what I believe Martin wants us to understand - he wants the characters to feel real. In a famous quote, he once said "Even Hitler loved dogs!" So PLEASE, don't think LF character is ruined because he made one mistake - everyone makes a few.

Secondly, where did I ever say he got angry because Cersei acted snooty and superior? Maybe you ought to read my post again. I understand it is quite long and it may be hard for you to concentrate the whole time. :box:

Anyway, I can't force you to like the scene or accept it. I am trying to get you to understand that people may like the scene for reasons you can not discredit offhand (even though you may not agree with them). Another of those dilemmas of life- there are so few right or wrong roads.... Only roads we take and the ones we don't. But we may be going into philosophy there. :dunno:

BTW, the time stamp is wrong as I could not reply to that quote due to the thread being locked but the quote is yours word for word.

Edited by Ikurai

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So I'm re-watching S2 on Blu-Ray and thought I'd comment on each episode w/ their respective special features as I go. Yes, I know there's a general S2 blu-ray thread, but it's a long and unwieldy beast. I'm wondering what people think about each episode after a second viewing and w/ the added bonus of the commentaries, histories, maps, etc.

I'd almost forgotten how good this episode was. Almost. And David & D.B. gave a really enjoyable commentary. These guys really are dedicated to preserving the story experience for fans--so much so that they even discuss later S2 episodes in code just in case someone is listening that hasn't seen all of S2 yet.

I really enjoyed the histories and how they coincided w/ specific scenes and characters. They had these on S1, but weren't integrated in to the episodes like this. I like this way much better as it gives re-watching the episodes an element of freshness, waiting for that icon to blink red w/ a new bit of story for you. And also doing the same events from different characters' POVs was a stroke of genius!

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