How did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna in the first place?

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

4) Lastly, Ned finds Lyanna on her deathbed, clutching the roses that Rhaegar gave to her. The roses are symbolic of their union, and the fact that she is clutching them demonstrates that she is still attached to Rhaegar.

Would you be so kind to remind me, where does it states, that the blue roses were given to Lyanna by Rhaegar, as a token of affection, and were not only a part of beds decoration? I have no recollection of such a statement.

And about different aspect of the same subject - if Lyanna would be NOT TOO WILLING to marry Robert - would Ned (being honor-obsessed like he was) conceal the truth about it from his best friend? I think he was very close to his sister (with all of his promise to her and such) - so it seems unlikely, that she wouldn't tell him about her feelings.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

Well if what united them in the first place was their belief of a great threat to the world that they would fight together and now Reagar and Aegon have just died (according to Ned) and she is bleeding to death then there is none to continue the cause apart from the litle brother. And the best place for dealing with such a threat in a kingdom that doesn't care at all is the NW.

So why sending to the Wall the young Benjen, and not Ned for instance? And what could Benjen actually change there for the best of the realm, then he was never a LC of NW? He could easily outbeat Jeor Mormont in his office of LC (with Benjen being one of the heirs to Winterfell, and Mormont being only his bannerman), but he only became a first ranger of NW.

But maybe I can offer you a defferent angle of a story (and Stark groupies are free to flame me as they wish):

After the Harrenhall tourney, Lyanna WAS actually raped, but by a whole different person, than the official version inclined - by her brother Benjen, who get her pregnant (it is maybe a perverted and a sickening idea, but as far as we are familiar with GRRM writings - it is not a first time we're facing in ASOIAF incestuous relationship between siblings). She was discovered by prince Rhaegar, and revealed to him her distress (with him favoring her at the tourney). I recall a similar case - when during a Hands tourney at Kings Landing, Ser Loras Tyrell favored Sansa Stark with a red rose (instead of a white ones, he gave other women) - he definitely wasn't in love with her. Elia Martel was sick for a year after giving birth to Aegon, but this is not a reason for a man who loved her (according to ser Barristan testimony) to betray her trust. Rhaegar could take pity at Lyanna, and sympathized her grief, but I don't think that he was interested in her as a lover.

Rhaegar understood, that lord Rickard will never believe any accusations against his youngest son, so he concealed her at the Tower of Joy, having in mind to let her stay there until she gives birth, and then disposing somehow of an unwanted child.

But apparently, Rhaegar made this "Dillinger's escape plan" clumsily, and the Marx (sorry, Starks) brothers discovered that he took their sister away. Afterwards, Benjen fled back to Winterfell, and Brandon rode into a Red Keeps Throne room brandishing a sword and demanding to bring him Rhaegar's head on a plate. We know what came next...

After the battle benif the Tower of Joy, Ned discovered Lyanna dying in her bed, after giving birth to Jon (so to all R+L=J lovers - it would be more B+L=J). There, she revealed Eddard the truth about their dear brother Benjen, and bid him not to tell it to anyone. So Benjen was afterwards exiled to the Wall (not as a noble hero - who could become a LC, but as a rapist and pervert) and Jon was fostered at Winterfell as Ned's bastard.

Well this theory is less romantic and heroic than the all-hailed R+L=J - Rhaegar died in vain trying to keep Lyanna's secret, Brandon died in vain struggling for a wrong cause, three loyal KG members died in vain (protecting Lyanna's honor from her brother's knowledge. And as usual, the one who always is fucked up all over is the poor honorable Eddard.

I believe, that Robert Baratheon would find another pretext for his rebellion and the Targariens would have fall never the less. But that's another bedtime story.

[Ygrain]

Would you be so kind to remind me, where does it states, that the blue roses were given to Lyanna by Rhaegar, as a token of affection, and were not only a part of beds decoration? I have no recollection of such a statement.

If I'm not mistaken, she clutches DRIED roses while on her deathbed - as if some special roses she kept dried as a remembrance. Blue roses are said to be the most rare of flowers, so I can't see how at an isolated ToJ, these would be used as mere decorations. The only instant it is explicitely stated that she was gifted some blue roses by Rhaegar is when he crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty, so either it is the very crown (and then a hint that she did go willingly, since victims of abduction usually don't take their possessions with them), or she was given some more roses later, since he knew that she liked them (a rapist might know which flowers she preferred but then there would be no reason why she should hold them close on her deathbed)

And about different aspect of the same subject - if Lyanna would be NOT TOO WILLING to marry Robert - would Ned (being honor-obsessed like he was) conceal the truth about it from his best friend? I think he was very close to his sister (with all of his promise to her and such) - so it seems unlikely, that she wouldn't tell him about her feelings.

But she did hint at it, when stating that Robert is unlikely to stick to one bed, and then Ned has to decide loyalty to whom should prevail - his friend, or his sister. Don't forget that Ned himself admits telling lies for love, so he is not incapable of ever telling a lie.

So why sending to the Wall the young Benjen, and not Ned for instance? And what could Benjen actually change there for the best of the realm, then he was never a LC of NW? He could easily outbeat Jeor Mormont in his office of LC (with Benjen being one of the heirs to Winterfell, and Mormont being only his bannerman), but he only became a first ranger of NW.

Benjen himself says that the rank at NW must be deserved, it is not granted automatically due to the previous social status. Being "only" first ranger means, in fact, that he is second to LC, and had the events went differently, he would be probably the one to take over Mormont's position.

After the Harrenhall tourney, Lyanna WAS actually raped, but by a whole different person, than the official version inclined - by her brother Benjen, who get her pregnant

Sorry but timeline does not fit. There are almost two years between Harrenhall and ToJ, and the Rebellion lasted about a year; Lyanna would have given birth long before that. Also, if Bran's vision was Lyanna fighting with Benjen, she was well capable to kick his ass, so I don't really see him raping her. Besides, if he did, I don't think he would ever be allowed to come to WInterfell again, yet when he comes visiting, it doesn't seem there is any grudge between him and Ned

I recall a similar case - when during a Hands tourney at Kings Landing, Ser Loras Tyrell favored Sansa Stark with a red rose (instead of a white ones, he gave other women) - he definitely wasn't in love with her. Elia Martel was sick for a year after giving birth to Aegon, but this is not a reason for a man who loved her (according to ser Barristan testimony) to betray her trust. Rhaegar could take pity at Lyanna, and sympathized her grief, but I don't think that he was interested in her as a lover.

Actually, Barristan says that Rhaegar was very FOND of Elia; elsewhere he also thinks that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Dany's version of the events also states that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, the source being either Viserys or Ser Darry.

- BTW, most of Elia's recovery took place during the Rebellion, as well; Lyanna's abduction must have taken place shortly after Aegon was born, the delivery being so problematic for Elia that it was clear right away that she would not be able to bear more children.

three loyal KG members died in vain (protecting Lyanna's honor from her brother's knowledge)

It was none of the KG's business to protect Lyanna's honour. With Rhaegar's death, his orders expired, whatever they were, and their first and foremost duty was to protect the king, who, according to the known succession line, was supposed to be Viserys, currently at Dragonstone, without a single KG to protect him, even though the first rule of KG says that at least one of them MUST be with the king.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

Sorry but timeline does not fit. There are almost two years between Harrenhall and ToJ, and the Rebellion lasted about a year; Lyanna would have given birth long before that. Also, if Bran's vision was Lyanna fighting with Benjen, she was well capable to kick his ass, so I don't really see him raping her.

You're right about the problem with time inconsistency - rebellion took two year, and Ned find Lyanna only after the Trident.

But I do not recall this vision of Bran - which book is it from? Also - Lyanna wasn't Brienne of Tarth - I'm not sure, she could overpower Benjen.

Anyhow, it was worth a try :)

[Ygrain]

But I do not recall this vision of Bran - which book is it from? Also - Lyanna wasn't Brienne of Tarth - I'm not sure, she could overpower Benjen.

ADWD - when Bran starts seeing through the weirwood. He sees a girl who looks much like Arya, sparring with a younger boy, and she totally beats him (Bran thinks that Arya was never able to beat him like that)

Why do you oppose R+L so much, if I may ask?

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

ADWD - when Bran starts seeing through the weirwood. He sees a girl who looks much like Arya, sparring with a younger boy, and she totally beats him (Bran thinks that Arya was never able to beat him like that)

Why do you oppose R+L so much, if I may ask?

R+L=J is too cheesy IMHO. Also, I really don't like the general idea of almost every married male character in ASOIAF cheating on his wife. Apart from being immoral, it's becoming too common pattern. I'll also like to see a major character developing by himself, and not because of him being someone's bastard/fake/unrecognized heir. We had it already with Joffrey/Gendry/Ramsay and it's becoming tedious.

And most of all - I'd like ASOIAF to stay as much fantasy-free as possible. I don't really want TPTWP to surface as Jon, a prefer it to stay a fable.

As you can see - I don't have solid proof to oppose R+L=J, I'll just wait for next 3 years, in hope it's wrong. For me it would be an unsatisfying conclusion to a masterpiece.

[Eira Seren]

It does make a lot of sense that Lyanna was at Harrenhal when she was "taken." That would also explain why Oswell Whent was one of the three Kingsguard members at the Tower of Joy, if he used his knowledge of the castle and/or his family ties to aid Rhaegar in his "abduction." Hightower (Lord Commander) and especially Dayne (Rhaegar's best friend) being there both make sense but up to this point, Whent's been sort of "filler." If Harrenhal is revealed to be "ground zero," as it were, Whent's participation makes a lot more sense.

Harrenhal has been pestering me for a while. It's "cursed" history, it's centrality to the current war (especially in CoK--and the other books, too. it seems to be a choice morsel, and everyone wants it. why would you want a cursed castle?); the location where R and L initially meet (also the locale of the Tourney, the outcome of which ultimately started the previous war); its somewhat central location on the map, on the northern shore of the God's Eye (and at its center, the Isle of Faces, last southern vestige of weirwoods, where the pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men took place). Is Harrenhal part of the story's "central mystery" that GRRM refers to? Not to mention the parallels between Harrenhal and Summerhall, one of the doomed places that (it must be fate!) R is drawn to. . . there are a lot of layers.

There's been lots of speculation about whether or not a certain wedding took place. . . think I mentioned before that a Godswood would be far more expedient than a sept. . .

also, again I wonder about Lyanna's connection with Ashara Dayne, given that both were at the Tourney, and at some point around this time, Ashara *apparently* ceased to be Elia's lady in waiting.

plus the Whent connection. . .

[Howling Mad]

I don't like Brandon much, either.

I just can't stop wondering if "Come out and die!" instead of "Return my sister at once!" is supposed to hint that he thought Rhaegar a seducer, not a kidnapper.

And I wonder what Viserys heard and where; he was a little boy when it happened, after all.

One more curious thing: Dany knows that Rhaegar supposedly died for the woman he loved, yet doesn't find it strange that he took her at swordpoint?

Why the hate for Brandon Stark? He commits one impetuous act of impertinence and now the world hates him :dunno:

[Hear Us Roar]

We are not getting the full story. I am sure there are characters who know what really happened, and we will hear from them.

The reports we get from rhaegar in books are either from horny fangirls [ he was the jsutin beiber/Loras Tyrell of his day] , or the Roberts and Neds who wanted to smash his face again and again

So yeah we have to wait

i dont think we are getting the full story on Brandon Stark either

[corbon]

Why the hate for Brandon Stark? He commits one impetuous act of impertinence and now the world hates him :dunno:

You really don't know?

Not that I think hate is appropriate reaction...

[corbon]

The reports we get from rhaegar in books are either from horny fangirls [ he was the jsutin beiber/Loras Tyrell of his day] , or the Roberts and Neds who wanted to smash his face again and again

Err, no.

Robert is the only one who wanted to smash his face in. Ned appears to have a fair degree of respect and never thinks ill of Rhaegar.

And I think the only 'horny fangirl' report is from Cersei. Other (positive) reports are from Howland Reed's story (someone on the opposite side during the war, and about as far from horny fangirl as you can get) Barristan Selmy (who was not part of his intimate circle, apparently not entirely trusted by Rhaegar and quite willing in the same breath to disparage Aerys, so hardly a 'fanboy' let alone a 'horny fangirl') and ... Jaime was it?

[Hear Us Roar]

. Selmy has been quiet on the subject, on what little he did know anyway. I get the feeling he only saw him at a distance and the Prince spent his time at Dragonstone etc.

i recall another female character going on about how dreamy he was other than Cersci etc.

It seems no one really knew the guy or no one has come forward to any possible motives to the 'kidnapping or elopement.

The less you know about someone people just fill in the blanks with theirown idea of who they are and what they were like.

Howland reed may be the last dude who knows what is up and as far as i know he has not said a word

[Eira Seren]

Would you be so kind to remind me, where does it states, that the blue roses were given to Lyanna by Rhaegar, as a token of affection, and were not only a part of beds decoration? I have no recollection of such a statement.

And about different aspect of the same subject - if Lyanna would be NOT TOO WILLING to marry Robert - would Ned (being honor-obsessed like he was) conceal the truth about it from his best friend? I think he was very close to his sister (with all of his promise to her and such) - so it seems unlikely, that she wouldn't tell him about her feelings.

Sorry to post again so soon, just found some of the blue roses references from GOT:

In the poppy dream (dream events are often not exact, but perhaps not totally induced by the poppy either, since the chapter begins, "He dreamt an old dream. . . "), at the moment he and the KG begin to fight, Ned "could hear Lyanna screaming. Eddard!. . . a storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death" (425).

In a second dream, he dreams of the crypts under Winterfell, and his family's tombs. "Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood" (501).

"Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost." Then he recalls Lyanna "Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers. . . " (631)

In the crypt, with Robert, visiting Lyanna's tomb: "He could hear her still at times, Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. . . when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. . . . 'I bring her flowers when I can,' he said. 'Lyanna was. . . fond of flowers.' (43-44)

So far, it is the wiki that names the roses she is holding a 'wreath'. However, to be black at the point she's died, the petals would either have to be quite old and dried, or bloodstained, or both. Also, there is ambiguity in the dream--did Ned really hold the wreath in his hand and get cut by the thorns, or is it symbolic (or again, both)?

Perhaps Rhaegar also knew her fondness for flowers, and brought them to her. I find it more meaningful if she is holding the wreath that Rhaegar presented to her at the Tourney, when he crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty. If she really did love him, she might have kept it, even in hiding, on the run. Lots of ladies keep wedding bouquets, and other gifts of this nature from significant others. And Ned always pictures her wearing the garland (Theon even dreams of the previous occupants of Winterfell, among them Lyanna wearing her crown of roses), so either Ned pictures L with the wreath of roses b/c of the tourney or b/c he sees it in her hand when she dies, thus he associates it with her, as he does her last words (Promise me). And she's hanging on to those petals until she's gone, definitely indicating her attachment to them. Just my thoughts.

As for Lyanna sharing her misgivings about Robert with Ned, check out page 379, outside the brothel: "The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

'Robert will never keep to one bed,' Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. 'I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.' Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely eny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their bethrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. 'Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature' (379).

In fact that entire chapter is interesting in its structure--lots of moments set up as comparisons between past/present, and lots of 7's and 3's as well (and a nice comparison between Robert and Rhaegar, who Ned muses wouldn't have patronized brothels). In the case of family vs bff's, how far does 'bros before hoes' apply (when it is his own sister?)

[corbon]

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers. . . " (631)

This one could do with some expansion (before) to add context. I believe this is when she is dying in his lap after the fight at ToJ? She is clutching the crown?

[Lykos]

The following sentences precede the quote made by Eira Seren.

Robert had been jesting with Jon (Arryn) and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion´s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty´s laurel in Lyanna´s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

I think the thorns Ned could feel are symbols for Ned having to live a lie for the love of his sister represented by the rose, as well as the events that followed and started the rebellion. I think some specific gesture was expected of Rhaegar after the tournament, sealing a pact to replace Aerys as king. But Rhaegar undid this pact by offending Robert Baratheon and the Starks by crowning Lyanna, which in itself wouldn´t have been so offensive, but not giving the declartion expected made all the smiles die. This didn´t lead to the rebellion however, it only stopped the plans to put Rhaegar on the iron throne. A symbolic gesture to declare for the pact was needed because King Aerys was unexpectedly present at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

[Kuther2000]

I don't know if Rhaegar did kidnap her, but it is quite possible. There is a big difference between playing swordfighting with your younger smaller brother and actually taking on a full grown man. It is not to say that she couldn't. We just don't know that she had that skill set. Any swordfighting that she learned probably had to be kept a secret from her father so she wouldn't have alot of time to do it freely. If KOLT is true, jousting is not ground fighting. In jousting a correctly placed lance can knock your opponent off his horse. In ground fighting, it actually relies on strength and skill. Lyanna was a 14 or 15 probably just now developing girl. We don't even know how tall she was. So it is quite possible that he could have kidnapped her, I am not saying that he did, but he could.

There is a big difference between Brienne and Lyanna. Lyanna being much smaller and probably dainty.

[Dragonfish]

. Selmy has been quiet on the subject, on what little he did know anyway.

Selmy hasn't really given specifics, but he has said that Rhaegar was the greatest Targaryen of them all. So I would hardly say he's been "quiet" on the subject.

I don't know if Rhaegar did kidnap her, but it is quite possible. There is a big difference between playing swordfighting with your younger smaller brother and actually taking on a full grown man. It is not to say that she couldn't. We just don't know that she had that skill set. Any swordfighting that she learned probably had to be kept a secret from her father so she wouldn't have alot of time to do it freely. If KOLT is true, jousting is not ground fighting. In jousting a correctly placed lance can knock your opponent off his horse. In ground fighting, it actually relies on strength and skill. Lyanna was a 14 or 15 probably just now developing girl. We don't even know how tall she was. So it is quite possible that he could have kidnapped her, I am not saying that he did, but he could.

There is a big difference between Brienne and Lyanna. Lyanna being much smaller and probably dainty.

Well, we do know that she defeated three trained squires with nothing but a tourney sword, so she clearly was a great fighter. Still, if Rhaegar had enough men with him, I'm sure they could have succeeded in kidnapping her. I just don't think that's what happened.

[Kuther2000]

Surprised that he would say that Rhaegar was the greatest Targaryen of them all especially when he knew Egg an actual Targaryen ruler and did things and Prince Duncan the Small. Rhaegar was an untested prince, who left with a girl.

Anything is possible.

[Eira Seren]

I think some specific gesture was expected of Rhaegar after the tournament, sealing a pact to replace Aerys as king. But Rhaegar undid this pact by offending Robert Baratheon and the Starks by crowning Lyanna, which in itself wouldn´t have been so offensive, but not giving the declartion expected made all the smiles die. This didn´t lead to the rebellion however, it only stopped the plans to put Rhaegar on the iron throne. A symbolic gesture to declare for the pact was needed because King Aerys was unexpectedly present at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

So if we view his move in terms of politics, why did he crown Lyanna? Was it a dodge, faux pas, or something else?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So if we view his move in terms of politics, why did he crown Lyanna? Was it a dodge, faux pas, or something else?

There's an idea that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, who was forced to withdraw from the tournament. Aerys sent Rhaegar to discover the knight's identity, and Rhaegar found out it was her and that's how they first met. Because Lyanna wasn't able to publicly get recognition for her victories as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar did the next best thing and crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. So at that point, it wouldn't have been a political statement or a deliberate insult to Elia (who, let's be real, had probably gotten her share of laurels in the past, maybe even from Rhaegar, too), but a way of giving a nod to Lyanna's skill.