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Lady Hodor

How did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna in the first place?

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(Sticking with the OP's themed question of R+L not being willing event)

Maybe RhaeRhae and perhaps Lyanna had some sort of disguise?

Rhaegar in particular had a major standout appearance...it would be hard for a princely platinum blonde guy with violet eyes wearing flashy red to discreetly swipe a highborn girl.

Lyanna thinks it is someone else, then poof.

Mmm, I'm not helping myself. Now I'm imagining Rhaegar wearing a baggy old cape, a bad wig and sporting a cheesy fake black mustachio.

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I think she ran away with Rhaegar willingly.

Meera and Jojen tell Bran a story that have descriptions of people that fit their father Howland Reed, Lyanna (the wolf maid), and her brothers: Ned (the quiet wolf), Benjen (the youngest pup), and Brandon (the wild wolf who led them).

It takes place at the Tourney of Harrenhal. In the story, Lyanna sniffled (cries) after listening to Rhaegar (the dragon prince) sing and play a sad song with his harp. It mentions a storm lord (Robert) and a knight of skulls and kisses (???). There was also a "maid with laughing purple eyes" that danced with the quiet wolf (Ned), but only after the wild wolf (Brandon) spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. ***a side note...this maid could be Jon's mother if it turns out that Lyanna isn't. *** And lastly, towards the end of the story, Bran comments that the wolf maid should have been named the queen of love and beauty. "She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

- A Storm of Swords, pages 337-343.

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and a knight of skulls and kisses (???). There was also a "maid with laughing purple eyes" that danced with the quiet wolf (Ned), but only after the wild wolf (Brandon) spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. ***a side note...this maid could be Jon's mother if it turns out that Lyanna isn't. *** And lastly, towards the end of the story, Bran comments that the wolf maid should have been named the queen of love and beauty. "She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

Knight of skulls and kisses is Richard Lonmouth

Maid with laughing purple eyes is probably Ashara Dayne

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@ Lord Littlefinger's Lash

Do you have any evidence to support that?

I cant imagine Lyanna would abandon her entire family on an entirely vague and unreliable prophecy.

Especially to give birth to a child, which, if she was like Arya, would be the furthest thing from her level of importance.

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It seems that everyone not named Robert Baratheon or Brandon Stark thought that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar because of what happened at Harrenhal. Ser Barristan was not part of Rhaegar's inner circle, but he knew that something was up -Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died.

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Ser Barristan called it kidnapping

Viserys called it kidnapping

Aerys did not deny it as a kidnapping

Catelyn called it a kidnapping

Lord Manderly called it kidnapping

(I'm aware none of these people were actually there, I am merely making a note)

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Ser Barristan called it kidnapping

Viserys called it kidnapping

Cersie called it kidnapping

Aerys did not deny it as a kidnapping

Catelyn called it a kidnapping

Lord Manderly called it kidnapping

(I'm aware none of these people were actually there, I am merely making a note)

Uh...none of those people ever called it a kidnapping, as far as I can recall. Do you have quotes to back up your assertions?

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"Kidnapping" is the "official" term for what happened with Lyanna.

The Stark-Baratheon-Arryn-Tully faction used the alleged "kidnapping" as an excuse to fan the flames of their rebellion. Of course they are going to maintain forever more that the event was a "kidnapping". Not only does "kidnapping" protect Lyanna's post mortem reputation, it also helps to justify the rebellion (damn those Targaryens, not only are they crazy but they run off with our women too grrrr).

As to Lyanna's location at the time, well that is one of the million dollar questions. I tend to think that she was in the south. I would like to think that she and Rhaegar had more contact with each other and time for them to fall in love (if that is what happened). There was a long period of time between the tourney at Harrenhal and the kidnapping (or whatever) of Lyanna, I think that they met more than just that one time at Harrenhal.

I do like Apple Martini's idea that Oswell Whent was somehow involved. Kingsguard Whent is who I usually refer to as 'that other guy' because he doesn't seem as important or as involved as LC Hightower and Arthur Dayne, so it would be kind of cool if he was more involved with the Lyanna thing than we had previously thought.

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"Kidnapping" is the "official" term for what happened with Lyanna.

The Stark-Baratheon-Arryn-Tully faction used the alleged "kidnapping" as an excuse to fan the flames of their rebellion. Of course they are going to maintain forever more that the event was a "kidnapping". Not only does "kidnapping" protect Lyanna's post mortem reputation, it also helps to justify the rebellion (damn those Targaryens, not only are they crazy but they run off with our women too grrrr).

I do agree that "kidnapping" was to protect Lyanna's reputation (maybe even by Rhaegar himself, and that's how the "abduction at swordpoint" story came to existence), but I was under the assumption that it was only when Aerys started demanding heads left and right that the lords rebelled. Lord Rickard himself never called his banners after his daughter was supposedly kidnapped and his heir imprisoned.

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I do agree that "kidnapping" was to protect Lyanna's reputation (maybe even by Rhaegar himself, and that's how the "abduction at swordpoint" story came to existence), but I was under the assumption that it was only when Aerys started demanding heads left and right that the lords rebelled. Lord Rickard himself never called his banners after his daughter was supposedly kidnapped and his heir imprisoned.

No way. It went way deeper than that, in my opinion. Rickard had been harbouring 'southron ambitions', whatever that means. I think he and his cronies were just waiting for a chance to overthrow the Targaryens.

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I have posted it in an other thread but here is probably the best place

The problem

In all the history of how Lyanna fell in love with Reagar and got pregnant there are a few problems. Reagar seems completely irresponsible in abducting her first towards his father, then to his wife, to Lyanna and to the realm, and rather out of character since he is described by all as a sensible, altruistic and careful person and not as a hot-headed or lustful guy. I also find completely heartless the idea that he did it in order to “breed” with the she-wolf, fulfill the prophesy and have the AA-PtwP son. At the same time it is difficult to believe that Lyanna would abandon her family and ran away in love with a married guy just after briefly meeting him. The syndrome of Stockholm seems rather strange too. Finally, there is the problem of the time frame. The two of them have talked too few times, have spent too little time together in Harrenhal to make a meaningful feeling realistic. And also when did the “abduction” happened? There are huge holes in the R+L story and many things don’t make much sense.

Reagar’s coup

Barristan remembers that:

“The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight ... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty ...”

Varys does not lie, he just manipulates the truth. He would never go to the king to accuse his son of basically treason without some pretty good-looking evidence. But more than that in this text I think we have the opinion of Barristan himself on the matter. Notice the first frase. There was something that Reagar entrusted to Arthur but not to him. The rest of the text seems at the first look to explain it but in reality it does not. We don’t learn what was that thing that he did not entrust to Barristan (maybe a plan for a coup??). The open way that Barristan deals with Varys’ accusations indicates that they are close to what he thinks has happened or else he would have denied them strongly.

So let’s go back at Harrenhal and suppose that the coup is real. Reagar has summoned all the big families there to discuss about setting aside his father but his father’s arrival destroys everything. Desperate he sings the song of ice and fire (his own personal motivation for changing things in the realm ) - which moves Lyanna strongly - and sends the others the message that there will be a second secret meeting.

The second meeting happens and the leaders of the families (among them Richard Stark with his daughter who refuses stubbornly to return home) hear him telling them that he will not only replace his father and change things for the better but that he is also the father of AA and that they all need to work together to prepare the realm for the imminent threat that will destroy their world as they know it! I wouldn’t be surprised if he even sung them the song again. As you would expect everybody freaks out. They realize that they might be replacing the Mad king with an even Madder king and they flatly refuse to support him.

Shocked by their refusal (as any ideologist who’s ideas cruse with reality) he departs for his feel-depresed-palace Summerhal - tower of Joy leaving them to the madness of his father.

However, Lyanna has also heard him. She has grown up with Old Nuns stories about the Others, she has lived closer to the wall and knows better the threats beyond, she loved the song the first time and she owns her life already to the singer (for not revealing her at Harenhal) plus she is more romantic and adventurous that her Southern-ambitious father. She runs away to Reagar with her horse and her sword and pledges her loyalty (and not her love yet, although she might already be in love with him).

He accepts her , thanks her and he asks her to return to her father but she refuses and he lets her stay at the ToJ. He has decided to remove himself from the politics of the kingdom and he asks from his father to send him his wife and children but the King holds them as hostages. Rejected by his lords and by his father and deprived of his family and his son, the depressed Reagar finds sympathy, support and probably love from Lyanna (and Jon is conceived : ) ).

The Stark family probably doesn’t know where Lyanna went at the beginning. But even if they knew, the funny thing is that her father cannot openly call for her return because he would have to describe where he lost her and what he was doing there! Consider that when he finally makes his advance to King’s Landing (maybe because he learns she is pregnant) he is tortured and kill by the king not because he insulted Reagar but because he is actually a traitor (which shows the King with a slightly better light than what we thought until now)!

Then later at the trident Reagar is faced with the people that rejected him and accuse him of abduction in order to defend a father that has treated him as a traitor and held his family hostage

Finally, if Lyanna accepted the PtwP cause as her own it is possible that it was she in her dying bed how asked for Bengen to join the night watch.

Ned was not with Rickard at the time and Rickard was killed imidiatelly after that and probably did not have time to inform Ned. Now, why Lord Arryn didn't know or didn't say anything about it, that is more difficult to answer. Maybe he didn't like the Targarians at all and he had decided that Robert should be the next king from the begining, or maybe he believed that if this particular delail of the rebelion was reveled it would make them seem less victimised to the public or that the honorable Ned would be less willing to revont against Reagar if he know about it.

So what do you think? Is a second meeting possible? Who took part?

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@ Dragonfish

I dont have direct quotes, but they all mention it in regard to something immoral, like kidnapping.

No one ever really mentions it as anything else but "Being carried off at swordpoint".

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Finally, if Lyanna accepted the PtwP cause as her own it is possible that it was she in her dying bed how asked for Bengen to join the night watch.

While I find your theory interesting (and I am strictly opposed to R+L=J idea), I can't see here a reason for Lyanna asking Benjen to join NW. AFAIR, we do not really know, as far as the end of ADWD - why has he done it.

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I suspect that Lyanna went willingly. Does anyone else think she was disguised as a knight?

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she went by her own will, id bet money on it.

The second meeting happens and the leaders of the families (among them Richard Stark with his daughter who refuses stubbornly to return home) hear him telling them that he will not only replace his father and change things for the better but that he is also the father of AA and that they all need to work together to prepare the realm for the imminent threat that will destroy their world as they know it! I wouldn’t be surprised if he even sung them the song again. As you would expect everybody freaks out. They realize that they might be replacing the Mad king with an even Madder king and they flatly refuse to support him.

Shocked by their refusal (as any ideologist who’s ideas cruse with reality) he departs for his feel-depresed-palace Summerhal - tower of Joy leaving them to the madness of his father.

However, Lyanna has also heard him. She has grown up with Old Nuns stories about the Others, she has lived closer to the wall and knows better the threats beyond, she loved the song the first time and she owns her life already to the singer (for not revealing her at Harenhal) plus she is more romantic and adventurous that her Southern-ambitious father. She runs away to Reagar with her horse and her sword and pledges her loyalty (and not her love yet, although she might already be in love with him).

some of that guys wall is possible but how u describe the events seems totally out of character both for lyanna and rhaegar, it made me laugh, TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER.

rhaegar can apparently see the future and for some magical reason knows all about the others and is the savour westeros when it isnt even under threat for about what 15 years or how ever old jon is now? so his goal isnt to stop his cruel nutball father whos on the road to ruin and is clearly a total wacko but to save the world. he apparently knows all about AA as well out of nowhere and lyanna must be the chosen one too or something lol and lyanna is totally gullible and will go along with some guy whos rambling on about a apocalypse whos seen known for a few hours.

also if he knew stuff out of thin air why did he take the path of events that led to both there deaths, the near total ruin of his house and the realm bleeding for years to come along with a shit life for his apparent son jon "the bastard" who ends up in the nights watch with rapers and murders

also you say he was rejected by his father so he ends up in the tower of joy, yet hes leading his fathers armies and has kingsguard looking after his stolen prize, if aerys hated/rejected his son id imagine he would have him killed or imprisoned, i mean aerys could be blackmailing him by holding lyanna in the tower of joy with his kingsguard but i dunno that would take massive self restraint, though i like the idea of that in some form as aerys could use that to keep him in check but still, this is all wacko talk lol

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While I find your theory interesting (and I am strictly opposed to R+L=J idea), I can't see here a reason for Lyanna asking Benjen to join NW. AFAIR, we do not really know, as far as the end of ADWD - why has he done it.

Well if what united them in the first place was their belief of a great threat to the world that they would fight together and now Reagar and Aegon have just died (according to Ned) and she is bleeding to death then there is none to continue the cause apart from the litle brother. And the best place for dealing with such a threat in a kingdom that doesn't care at all is the NW.

In the meantime consider also this. Dany sees Reagar singing the Song, wachting newborn baby Aegon (what is newborn? are we talking hours days weeks or months?) and saying that he is the PtwP but when does this scene happens for real? The timetable of these events is a nightmare but I think we know that Aegon dies up to one year-old (are we certain when he was born?) which means that this scene happens at some point during the year before the sack of King's Landing while the war is going on. But if my idea is close to what really happened, then Reagar was considered a traitor and would not be at King's Landings much during that year, so it is possible that the scene of the prophesy happens the days before the Trident when he returned to assume command of the army, few days before he actually died. And when he says that there must be another maybe he does not speak theoretically but he is thinking of the other child that Lyanna is expecting.

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:P come on guys we have 3 years to wait! the time has to pass some way...

I don't think he sees the future in fact the whole idea is an (clumsy and brutal I admit :laugh: ) efford to explain things without using magic at all. He just knows the PtwP prophesy which speaks about a threat and dragons reborn from a Targarian and something about a ridlle and maybe something other we don't know but i would be really surprised if it spoke explicitely about the Others. Lyanna could have made a connection with the Others (rather unlikely thought). The whole idea of the post is that there might have been something else, for example a common cause, that brought them together and that the love story followed (supposing that it was not just kidnaping and rape)

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@ Dragonfish

I dont have direct quotes, but they all mention it in regard to something immoral, like kidnapping.

Again, I really don't think they do. I recall almost none of what your're talking about. Here's what I recall:

Barristan says Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He mentions nothing about kidnapping.

Viserys simply says Rhaegar would never have "laid eyes" on Lyanna if Dany had been born earlier. He mentions nothing about a kidnapping.

Cersei similarly believes she could have given Rhaegar what he wanted instead of that northern girl. She mentions nothing about a kidnapping.

Catelyn says Brandon heard "what happened to Lyanna". This is a bit ambiguous, but it's the closest thing to a kidnapping reference so far.

As for Lord Manderly, I don't recall when he talked about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Could you provide a quote for this, at least?

There are really only two character who refer directly to a kidnapping scenario. The first is Robert, but he is, of course, a blind fool, and he clearly is desperate to believe that he and Lyanna had some great love together. In other words, it is simply not in him to admit that Lyanna might have loved another.

The second character to refer to a kidnapping is Bran. However, it is likely he is simply repeating the regime's version of events here. And at the very least, the fact that he is ignorant of the exact manner of Brandon and Rickard's deaths goes to show that he is not a very reliable source of information regarding the events of the war.

No one ever really mentions it as anything else but "Being carried off at swordpoint".

Ok, first of all, the context of Dany's quote makes it seem that "being carried off at swordpoint" refers to a rescue, not a kidnapping (to elaborate, note that when Dany says this to herself, she is dreamily imagining, and hoping, the Daario will do the same thing that Rhaegar did and rescue her from a marriage she is only entering into out of obligation).

Second, though no one outright states that Lyanna ran off willingly with Rhaegar, there is still evidence that she did:

1) There are numerous references from the books to Rhaegar's sterling character, which would conflict with accounts that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Even Ned seems to think positively of Rhaegar when he concludes that he probably wouldn't have visited brothels.

2) Lyanna seemed to be at best lukewarm toward the idea of marrying Robert. She also seemed to be at least a little taken with Rhaegar, when his singing made her cry.

3) Ned tells Arya that Lyanna had a touch of the "wolf's blood" like her, and that it led her to an early grave. The "wolf's blood" reference likely implies a certain degree of impulsiveness, and the "early grave" part of the quote implies that Lyanna was somehow complicit in her own downfall. Combine this with the numerous comparisons between Arya's personality and Lyanna's, and it becomes clear that Lyanna might have balked at being forced to marry someone like Robert and chose, somewhat rashly, to run off with the man she did want to marry.

4) Lastly, Ned finds Lyanna on her deathbed, clutching the roses that Rhaegar gave to her. The roses are symbolic of their union, and the fact that she is clutching them demonstrates that she is still attached to Rhaegar.

Each of the above pieces of evidence might not be convincing on their own, but taken together I find them to be pretty persuasive.

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