How did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna in the first place?

[Eira Seren]

definitely

There's an idea that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, who was forced to withdraw from the tournament. Aerys sent Rhaegar to discover the knight's identity, and Rhaegar found out it was her and that's how they first met. Because Lyanna wasn't able to publicly get recognition for her victories as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar did the next best thing and crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. So at that point, it wouldn't have been a political statement or a deliberate insult to Elia (who, let's be real, had probably gotten her share of laurels in the past, maybe even from Rhaegar, too), but a way of giving a nod to Lyanna's skill.

definitely agree. maybe he was trying to cement some kind of alliance by honoring lyanna? but if he was trying to rally support against Aerys, what makes this a politically charged moment (if indeed it is, apart from sort of "stealing" someone else's betrothed)

[Lord Ben]

Ser Barristan called it kidnapping

Viserys called it kidnapping

Aerys did not deny it as a kidnapping

Catelyn called it a kidnapping

Lord Manderly called it kidnapping

(I'm aware none of these people were actually there, I am merely making a note)

Seducing and running away with a girl who is betrothed might as well be called kidnapping. It's not like we're dealing with a setting where a girl has the right to marry who she wishes to marry. Whether she chose to or not he "stole" her from her family who made other promises. A Xth Century Westeros "kidnapping" is not a 21st Century kidnapping, therefore I think the kidnapping was Rhaegar stealing her from the Starks and Baratheons, not taking her against her will.

[Eira Seren]

Seducing and running away with a girl who is betrothed might as well be called kidnapping. It's not like we're dealing with a setting where a girl has the right to marry who she wishes to marry. Whether she chose to or not he "stole" her from her family who made other promises. A Xth Century Westeros "kidnapping" is not a 21st Century kidnapping, therefore I think the kidnapping was Rhaegar stealing her from the Starks and Baratheons, not taking her against her will.

so if R was trying to take over the throne, now i'm curious as to how a 'kidnapping' (according to this definition) would work to his political advantage. surely he would want to ally himself with enough powerful people to offset other players? I guess since he was betrothed at some point to Cersei he thought he could join with the Lannisters? Or had that bridge already been burned at that point? Why alienate Robert and the Starks? Or was he trying to?

[Lord Ben]

so if R was trying to take over the throne, now i'm curious as to how a 'kidnapping' (according to this definition) would work to his political advantage. surely he would want to ally himself with enough powerful people to offset other players? I guess since he was betrothed at some point to Cersei he thought he could join with the Lannisters? Or had that bridge already been burned at that point? Why alienate Robert and the Starks? Or was he trying to?

I think he was in love, I don't think it was a calculation.

[Lykos]

So if we view his move in terms of politics, why did he crown Lyanna? Was it a dodge, faux pas, or something else?

I think it definitely was done deliberately and I favor the idea that Apple Martini posted. My speculation that a specific gesture was expected is based on the D&E story, The Mystery Knight, where I think GRRM showed us what is possible and how rebellions were organized. A victorious contender and a lot of symbolism seemed to have been common parts of these plots.

[Eira Seren]

so in this case crowning Lyanna (recognizing her skill) would be symbolic of what? what message was he trying to send?

maybe a hippie message--make love not war :love:

[Lykos]

No this was a deliberate change of plan, and I think the message was for Lyanna only. That´s why all the smiles died. My speculation is that Rhaegar and Lyanna had an interesting chat when he was sent to bring the Knight of the Laughing Tree to his father, that convinced him a pact with Lyanna was more important than the goodwill of the present Lords. And they didn´t have a better choice than him to replace Aerys anyway, but I think it had to be much more than just a romantic crush to make him do it. Which probably even makes it more romantic. And I have to read what the Reeds tell Bran about the KotLT again. I can´t remember wether Howland ever reached the Isle of Faces, where he was heading when he was invited by the Starks to attend the Tournament.

[Silmarien]

I dont think its hypocritical to try and protect your sister just because you've had sex before.

What are you responding to?

Brandon wasn't trying to "protect" Lyanna. He just demanded Rhaegar come out to die. That put her in more danger than before!

[Eira Seren]

Yes, Reed does reach the Isle of Faces

“No one visits the Isle of Faces,” objected Bran. “That’s where the green men live.”

“It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork.”

Bran closed his eyes to try and see the man in his little skin boat. In his head, the crannogman looked like Jojen, only older and stronger and dressed like Meera.

“He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces.”

“Did he meet the green men?”

“Yes,” said Meera, “but that’s another story, and not for me to tell. My prince asked for knights.”

“Green men are good too.”

“They are,” she agreed, but said no more about them. “All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world.”

At the feast he spots his tormentors: “The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck…”

and the KofLT is wearing hodgepodge and "ill-fitting" armor.

my money is on Reed or Lyanna

[Silmarien]

R+L=J is too cheesy IMHO. Also, I really don't like the general idea of almost every married male character in ASOIAF cheating on his wife. Apart from being immoral, it's becoming too common pattern. I'll also like to see a major character developing by himself, and not because of him being someone's bastard/fake/unrecognized heir. We had it already with Joffrey/Gendry/Ramsay and it's becoming tedious.

And most of all - I'd like ASOIAF to stay as much fantasy-free as possible. I don't really want TPTWP to surface as Jon, a prefer it to stay a fable.

As you can see - I don't have solid proof to oppose R+L=J, I'll just wait for next 3 years, in hope it's wrong. For me it would be an unsatisfying conclusion to a masterpiece.

But ASOIAF is a freaking fantasy novel. Perhaps you should stick to historical fiction?

[Silmarien]

Why the hate for Brandon Stark? He commits one impetuous act of impertinence and now the world hates him :dunno:

Brandon apparently took Lady Barbery Ryswell's maidenhead and repeatedly slept with her, knowing he couldn't marry her because he was betrothed to Catelyn.

Also, he's the likeliest candidate to have knocked up Ashara Dayne. "A bloody sword is a beautiful thing".

He sounds like a major asshole to me. :dunno:

[Silmarien]

We are not getting the full story. I am sure there are characters who know what really happened, and we will hear from them.

The reports we get from rhaegar in books are either from horny fangirls [ he was the jsutin beiber/Loras Tyrell of his day] , or the Roberts and Neds who wanted to smash his face again and again

So yeah we have to wait

i dont think we are getting the full story on Brandon Stark either

Small quibble. Ned never has a negative thought about Rhaegar in his POVs, none whatsoever. Only Robert actively hates Rhaegar.

[Jem]

so if R was trying to take over the throne, now i'm curious as to how a 'kidnapping' (according to this definition) would work to his political advantage. surely he would want to ally himself with enough powerful people to offset other players? I guess since he was betrothed at some point to Cersei he thought he could join with the Lannisters? Or had that bridge already been burned at that point? Why alienate Robert and the Starks? Or was he trying to?

I, for one, do think the kidnapping was a political move. I think he was trying to break the Stark-Baratheon-Tully alliance that would have been formed with the marriages of Robert to Lyanna and Brandon to Cat.

I think that the Stark-Baratheon-Tully alliance (with an additional alliance with Jon Arryn) was part of Rickard Stark's 'southron ambitions'. Taking Lyanna obviously stops the Stark-Baratheon branch from forming, and the timing of the kidnap - right before Brandon and Cat's marriage - stops or at least delays the Stark-Tully branch of the alliance.

I think that Rhaegar had planned the tourney at Harrenhal, with the assistance of Oswell Whent, as a cover to try and drum up support from the other lords to overthrow Aerys. However at that time Rhaegar actually discovered the planning of the Stark-Baratheon and Stark-Tully marriages. Giving Lyanna the crown of roses may have been his warning shot across their bow, saying "I'm on to you guys, I know what you are up to".

[Eira Seren]

I guess having the Starks as allies could cause problems for Rhaegar's takeover? Wish I knew more about early Stark/Targ relations (beyond the defeat of the King in the North). If so, seems like he isn't following the "keep your enemies closer" philosophy (unless we count Lyanna). Or is it more about alienating the Baratheons?

[Lord Ben]

I, for one, do think the kidnapping was a political move. I think he was trying to break the Stark-Baratheon-Tully alliance that would have been formed with the marriages of Robert to Lyanna and Brandon to Cat.

A horrible move if true. He cemented it.

But I still vote they fell in love and he ran off with her. He even named the tower they went to the tower of joy.

[Jem]

I think it is more of a case of keeping your "enemies" apart from one another and don't let them form a power block against you. Not that I do think Rhaegar perceived the Starks/Baratheons/Tullys/Arryns as enemies as such, but definitely a potential threat to the Targaryen reign.

A horrible move if true. He cemented it.

Yes, but you are looking at the situation with the benefit of hindsight.

I know it is ironic, but I actually do think that Rhaegar was trying to forestall a situation of civil war which would see the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys and Arryns againts the Targaryens, Martells and Tyrells (with the Lannisters being the wild card that could go either way).

I think he was just trying to buy some time by stopping the marriages.

It didn't work. You know that and I know that, but as I said, hindsight is 20/20.

I might add, I don't preclude the notion that Rhaegar and Lyanna were "in love". In lust most likely, but anyhow. I just don't see this as being a sweet hearts-and-roses, true-love-will-never-die, violins-and-blue-birds type thing. Maybe I am just not a romantic, but to me Rhaegar and Lyanna is more idiotic than romantic.

[bloodymime]

Yes, Reed does reach the Isle of Faces

“No one visits the Isle of Faces,” objected Bran. “That’s where the green men live.”

“It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork.”

Bran closed his eyes to try and see the man in his little skin boat. In his head, the crannogman looked like Jojen, only older and stronger and dressed like Meera.

“He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces.”

“Did he meet the green men?”

“Yes,” said Meera, “but that’s another story, and not for me to tell. My prince asked for knights.”

“Green men are good too.”

“They are,” she agreed, but said no more about them. “All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world.”

At the feast he spots his tormentors: “The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck…”

and the KofLT is wearing hodgepodge and "ill-fitting" armor.

my money is on Reed or Lyanna

I've always wondered why it couldn't be Ned, thus explaining the start of an apparently close friendship between him and Reed. While I guess you can't entirely discout Lyanna because it mainly sounds cool I really hate people using Kingslayer's offhand thought that jousting is 3/4 horsemanship as a reason it could be her. I wish there was someone on these boards that had actually jousted because I can't honestly believe someone is just going to pick up a lance and beat even three squires just because they're skilled at riding a horse. I'd think that when you are at someone like Kingslayers level of skill in jousting then the horsemanship is going to seem the most important but jousting is something people had to practice at hard to be any good. Simply the strength to hold your shield and lance steady to start with, being able to put that lance where you want it, and I'd think most importantly knowing how to take a hit because jousting is a sport where if you're hitting them they're most assuredly hitting you at the same time.

[Teal'c]

Thanks for fetching all the blue roses quotes, Eira Seren.

'In a second dream, he dreams of the crypts under Winterfell, and his family's tombs. "Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood" (501).'

This is the first time I'm equating Lyanna crying blood and the possibility they married in front of a weirwood heart tree. Am I reaching here?

[Jem]

Thanks for fetching all the blue roses quotes, Eira Seren.

'In a second dream, he dreams of the crypts under Winterfell, and his family's tombs. "Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood" (501).'

This is the first time I'm equating Lyanna crying blood and the possibility they married in front of a weirwood heart tree. Am I reaching here?

Good catch! Maybe.

Either that or Lyanna actually died from the ebola virus.

[Teal'c]

Good catch! Maybe.

Either that or Lyanna actually died from the ebola virus.

Touché! Or D.I.C. perhaps? :cool4: