Sansa and Tyrion predictions

[Lyanna Stark]

@James Arryn,

I can see where you are coming from and I agree with you that Tyrion's main problem (or at least one of his bigger ones) is his dysfunctional relationship with people around him which brings with it an almost complete lack of friends. He trusts people only as far as his money can buy them.

That said, I strongly believe he has a more dysfunctional relationship with women than with men. He does have one positive relationship with a man, and that's Jaime. Despite everything, Jaime and Tyrion get along well, they seem to rather like each others' company and being estranged from eachother causes them to think on the other (in AFFC and ADWD). Tyrion also seems to have some small respect for his uncle Kevan, although he recognises that Kevan is ultimately Tywin's man. You could also argue that he's got some positive interaction with Jon Snow, since Jon thinks of him positively.

Now, look at Tyrion's relationship with women so far in the series. Firstly, we have his mother, who died when he was born, for which he has been blamed his entire life. He's never known her and doesn't know if she would even have loved him, had she lived.

Cersei hates him and is cruel to him, partly because she's rather a cruel person, but also because Tyrion to her was the murderer of their mother. Tyrion doesn't seem to fear Cersei, but he definitely holds a grudge, and it's a strange coloured one too. He mentions to her that it's unfair she opens her legs for one brother and not the other, and then later on he thinks of taking revenge on her and pictures it in terms of raping her. Which, I'd hazard to say, is not anywhere near a healthy, or even a "normal" hostile relationship with your sister.

Tysha was his child bride, and he loved her, but then he managed to tarnish and violate the entire thing by ending up as her final rapist.

Shae, a pretty camp follower who Tyrion felt strongly for, but at the same time, what did he feel for her? She seemed to have been wish fulfillment, but without actually dealing with any of the "real" parts of human interaction. He didn't care for her problems, or issues, or what she felt about things. In fact, he is so callous as to praise Sansa as the most beautiful woman in Kings Landing with Shae in the room. That's extremely disrespectful to the woman he professes to love. The Shae love story, while one sided and false, illustrates that Tyrion isn't a bad guy. He wants something from a relationship which he is trying to create with Shae, yet like the Tysha thing, it ends with him tarnishing it and violating it by killing Shae.

Then through ADWD you have his appalling interaction with various whores, where he more or less rapes them, vomits on the floor and in general acts like a complete arsebiscuit of massive proportions.

Finally, we have Penny. He thinks an awful lot of things about Penny, that she's naive, that she seems to be so horrendously limited and innocent, yet he stays courteous and ends up taking care of her, as well as he can.

Regarding Alayaya, Tyrion doesn't have any direct interaction with her. She works as a Shae proxy, since Cersei thinks she's got her hands on "Tyrion's whore", but she's whipping the wrong person. Tyrion gets pissed off with her both for hurting the wrong person but also because it shows what a threat Cersei is to the real Shae (and by extension Tyrion himself), had she got her hands on the real thing.

To conclude: I think you are perfectly right that Tyrion has a hard time with relationships regardless of gender, but I think there is a difference. From men, he wants recognition and to be valued, which he never got from Tywin. From women he wants to be loved, but maybe because this is harder to get and he yearns for it more, he ends up violating and tarnishing anything that comes close to it.

[James Arryn]

LS-

I appreciate the considered response. I think we understand one another's perspective, which is itself a feat. You think there is a gender difference, I do not. I think what difference there is is explained by 2 aspects, the nature of the function which the genders in that society can be of use to Tyrion, and the numbers that correlate (ie, he will have access to/use of far more men than women to achieve his goals.)

And I think the example you cite most...Jaime...isn't as supportive as you think. For one thing, I think it is mostly defined by it's lack of negatives...we hear of very few overt positives, and of those the greatest is illusory...and it falls apart pretty quickly when tested.

More, and I am in danger of taking a position here for the sake of argument, but I do tend to believe that if Cersei had been more prone to affection than abuse...and I do not mean affection in the way it was given to Jaime...he would be quite as happy with her as he was with Jaime.

Jaime is mostly exceptional to him because of NOT treating him as a monster, not because of any gender related issue I can see.

I would say his 'respect' for people like Kevan is matched by his 'respect' for Cat. He trusts none of them, really, but has a grudging respect for people he either thinks can play the game (LF, Cat) or are somehow too innocent/noble to partake (Alayaya, Jon).

[Lyanna Stark]

Always nice to have an interesting discussion. :) I find Tyrion's personality fascinating as well so any new insights and perspectives are worthwhile to me.

And I think the example you cite most...Jaime...isn't as supportive as you think. For one thing, I think it is mostly defined by it's lack of negatives...we hear of very few overt positives, and of those the greatest is illusory...and it falls apart pretty quickly when tested.

Well, they were riding together at the time of the Tysha incident, which seems to indicate they willingly spent some time together. It's also based on Jaime's thoughts about Tyrion in AFFC where he seems to consider Tyrion his brother in truth, and not just a dwarf he tolerates. But you know YMMV on this, and I don't have my AFFC bookmarked with the Jaime chapters either so can't quote you anything definite atm.

More, and I am in danger of taking a position here for the sake of argument, but I do tend to believe that if Cersei had been more prone to affection than abuse...and I do not mean affection in the way it was given to Jaime...he would be quite as happy with her as he was with Jaime.

I agree. In many ways I think Cersei's cruelty towards Tyrion may be one of the reasons he has a hard time forming relationships with women, and maybe especially good looking ones. It's also interesting to consider that Tyrion's actions during ACOK and ASOS may have been completely different had he been on similar friendly terms with Cersei as he was with Jaime.

Strangely, you have the same time of shallowness and promiscuity shown from both Cersei and Tyrion, unlike Jaime who seems like a one woman man kinda dude. Maybe the realm should feel lucky Cersei and Tyrion did not combine forces. I actually think they could have made an absolutely formidable and deadly team, had they not been at eachother's throats.

[ElizaMartell]

Because she does need to grow up. She's what, 13? Most people are attractive when they're young, but that fades with age and it's what's inside that becomes important. Intelligence, humor and respsect are qualities that will go a long way towards making a relationship work, and in Westeros, alliances are important. Most marriages in Westeros were arranged and people learned to work within those arrangements. I don't see her as a trophy wife, because I don't place that high a value on looks. BTW, if you have to use sarcasm or insulting tones to support your arguments, then you really don't have a very sturdy leg to stand on.

Sorry but your arguments are already shaky. Sansa is already learning through herself not to believe in songs and by CoK wasn't playing a heavy emphasis in looks. You keep insisting she needs to 'learn' and grovel over the greatness of Tyrion and get sensitive when people call you out on it by saying I'm being 'insulting'. Its the truth. Sansa is growing up by herself already, her story from the end of GoT has demonstrated this. The 'alliance' you're talking about will not work in any shape of form and you continually refuse to see that because your argument in centered around the absurd notion the Tyrion deserves something 'good' regardless of what Sansa needs.

[Woman of War]

@Melisandra and Sand Snake:

Sorry for coming back to this argument again since this has been discussed so often already: I cannot see the boy Tyrion as outright rapist when he was a child of thirteen.

Every child forced into sexual activity is first of all a victim. The abusers were Tywin here and the guards. And even if this child in a way participates in his or her abuse or the abuse of others, by manipulating another child or by showing signs of arousal, this does not change the fact that the abusive adult, Tywin here, is the perpetrator and the child, even if he or she has his or her part in the guilt, is legally the witness. This does not make Tyrion guilt free morally of course and he will be haunted for the rest of his life. And even if Tysha was interested in Lannister money this does not justify Tywin's cruel criminal plot.

But Tywin's strategy was in fact one that is today as well used by child abusers (and boys can be victims of abuse as much as girls): "you had a boner, you wanted it, don't complain now!" , so they can ensure their power over the victim and, in RL, prevent them from going to the police. Of course, no need to mention it, Tysha's suffering was so much worse. But with this strategy, making Tyrion take part, Tywin manipulated his son into an awfully abusive emotional dependency.

So I am not willing to see this crime as rape from the child Tyrion's side like Gregor's and countless other rapes in thes books.

[Melifeather]

Sorry but your arguments are already shaky. Sansa is already learning through herself not to believe in songs and by CoK wasn't playing a heavy emphasis in looks. You keep insisting she needs to 'learn' and grovel over the greatness of Tyrion and get sensitive when people call you out on it by saying I'm being 'insulting'. Its the truth. Sansa is growing up by herself already, her story from the end of GoT has demonstrated this. The 'alliance' you're talking about will not work in any shape of form and you continually refuse to see that because your argument in centered around the absurd notion the Tyrion deserves something 'good' regardless of what Sansa needs.

Look, I get it. The rabid Sansa fan base is here. I recognize your name as well as few others as I've crossed paths with you before. You all have strong opinions regarding Sansa and anyone that disagrees with you is "wrong". You identify with the Sansa character so much that you often reply like she's a real person (as if you know how she feels). She's just one character among many and not even the main heroine.

[Lyanna Stark]

Look, I get it. The rabid Sansa fan base is here. I recognize your name as well as few others as I've crossed paths with you before. You all have strong opinions regarding Sansa and anyone that disagrees with you is "wrong". You identify with the Sansa character so much that you often reply like she's a real person (as if you know how she feels). She's just one character among many and not even the main heroine.

Instead of blaming others for being rabid Sansa fans, you could try backing up your opinions with actual facts based on the books.

So far you have made posts with a lot of factual errors in them, so to claim others have blinders...pot, kettle, black?

[ElizaMartell]

Look, I get it. The rabid Sansa fan base is here. I recognize your name as well as few others as I've crossed paths with you before. You all have strong opinions regarding Sansa and anyone that disagrees with you is "wrong". You identify with the Sansa character so much that you often reply like she's a real person (as if you know how she feels). She's just one character among many and not even the main heroine.

And you were the one complaining about insulting tones earlier. :lol:

If you have nothing to refute my arguments with apart from gross exagerations and strawmen then its better not to post anything.

[Thunderfist]

I think that I have posted this in another similar thread but here goes

Sansas mother charged Tyrion with the murder of Sansas brother and Tyrion nearly lost his life

Sansas aunt charged Tyrion with the murder of Jon Arryn and Tyrion nearly lost his life

Tyrions brother attempted to kill Sansas brother by throwing him from a tower

Tyrions nephew had Sansas father executed (while Sansa was watching)

Tyrions nephew had Sansa beaten repeatedly

Tyrions father orchestrated the Red Wedding where Sansas brother and mother were killed

Tyrions father also handed control of the north and the Riverlands over to the Boltons and the Freys

I am sure that several other examples can be added to why this is not the basis for a happy marriage. If they in fact end up staying married it will feel utterly unrealistic.

[Woman of War]

By Lyanna Stark:

To conclude: I think you are perfectly right that Tyrion has a hard time with relationships regardless of gender, but I think there is a difference. From men, he wants recognition and to be valued, which he never got from Tywin. From women he wants to be loved, but maybe because this is harder to get and he yearns for it more, he ends up violating and tarnishing anything that comes close to it.

agree

What we have with Tyrion's love longings is the self fulfilling prophecy: he hopes this time everything will be fine, he knows by experience that nothing will be fine, he behaves according to this assumption, not according to his hopes, thus condemning his wishes himself, making them impossible to become reality, his original assumption once again has been confirmed..........and so on. A pattern of behaviour that makes so many relationships in RL go down the drain, mostly in a less drastic manner.

Or let's get it from Groucho Marx: A woman that would be willing to love ME can't be desirable at all. That's what Daddy successfully taught him through the Tysha event. And I do not think that Tyrion here is only referring to his looks, he knows perfectly well that he has been trained by life to bite before he gets bitten.

@thunderfist

Tyrion killed Tyrion's father

Tyrion is accused of having killed Sansa's torturer and the murderer of Sansa's father.

I think everybody will see in the course of events that Tyrion cannot be held responsible for all those crimes members of his family committed, actually he himself is at present the biggest enemy of House Lannister.

[Ser Sea]

I'm personally convinced that Tyrion will end up with Tysha in the end. From what I've read, she seems to be his one true love, the only woman who cared for him despite his looks. I know he stood by and watched her getting raped, and did the deed himself, but I could see them having a tearful reconciliation somewhere in Essos. I don't know how it's going to happen, but the whole "where whores go" thing seems to be leading up to something. That's just my two cents.

I have no idea who Sansa is gonna end up with. I want it to be Sandor, but I know that's probably not going to happen, it would be too perfect.

[lostinwesteros]

Tyrion is a kinslayer x 2 and on the run.

Methinks some rereading is in order :)

What kin did Tryion slay besides Tywin?

[Buckwheat]

I'm personally convinced that Tyrion will end up with Tysha in the end. From what I've read, she seems to be his one true love, the only woman who cared for him despite his looks. I know he stood by and watched her getting raped, and did the deed himself, but I could see them having a tearful reconciliation somewhere in Essos. I don't know how it's going to happen, but the whole "where whores go" thing seems to be leading up to something. That's just my two cents.

I have no idea who Sansa is gonna end up with. I want it to be Sandor, but I know that's probably not going to happen, it would be too perfect.

About Tyrion ending with Tysha, I do not think that would be possible. I do not think any girl could be happy and keep loving the person who raped her publically and from whose house she was so brutally thrown back on the street. If Tyrion meets her again, she will probably refuse even to speak to him. I personally do not believe they will even meet, maybe Tyrion will learn what happened to her, and decide it would be the best to stop searcing her.

Once Tyrion is over Tysha, he might start a healthy relationship with another woman, but that will certainly not be Sansa.

What kin did Tryion slay besides Tywin?

Joffrrey, in the eyes of Westerosi.

[lostinwesteros]

In the face of far bigger problems that petty power games or pointless revenge. Tyrion by then will know that Sansa had no part in framing him for Joffrey's murder and Sansa will know that Tyrion did not have her family killed.

God, I hope so!

I must admit, though, that Tyrion has been one of my favorites throughout, and I have never been a Sansa fan. I am less critical of her as she is by the end of AFFC but think she nonetheless has a long, long way to go to live up to the Stark examples, in spite of the horrid things she suffered at Joffrey's hand.

My hunch is that Sansa and Tyrion will not see each other until Westeros is so changed by crisis and chaos that their marriage may be a moot point. And I guess it's also possible that they may never see each other again, although I have a sense that they will both be alive at the end of the series.

But, alluding to what Woman of War notes above, part of what's deliciously fun, in the midst of the agonizing wait for the next book, is getting to speculate and discuss just what might come to pass.

[Lyanna Stark]

What kin did Tryion slay besides Tywin?

Joffrey. You might remember a certain trial where Oberyn died to the Mountain?

That one. :)

[lostinwesteros]

In the face of far bigger problems that petty power games or pointless revenge. Tyrion by then will know that Sansa had no part in framing him for Joffrey's murder and Sansa will know that Tyrion did not have her family killed.

God, I hope so!

I must admit, though, that Tyrion has been one of my favorites throughout, and I have never been a Sansa fan. I am less critical of her as she is by the end of AFFC but think she nonetheless has a long, long way to go to live up to the Stark examples, in spite of the horrid things she suffered at Joffrey's hand.

My hunch is that Sansa and Tyrion will not see each other until Westeros is so changed by crisis and chaos that their marriage may be a moot point. And I guess it's also possible that they may never see each other again, although I have a sense that they will both be alive at the end of the series.

But, alluding to what Woman of War notes above, part of what's deliciously fun, in the midst of the agonizing wait for the next book, is getting to speculate and discuss just what might come to pass.

[lostinwesteros]

Joffrey. You might remember a certain trial where Oberyn died to the Mountain?

That one. :)

Well, yes, of course I do remember that, but Tyrion didn't really slay Joffrey, even though he was 'convicted' of it. So you're speaking of what he's perceived of doing, not what he actually did.

PS - How are you getting smiley faces to come up? Mine have been grayed out for a while now, so I thought it was done on everybody's to save 'cyber space', due to the flood of users.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Well, yes, of course I do remember that, but Tyrion didn't really slay Joffrey, even though he was 'convicted' of it. So you're speaking of what he's perceived of doing, not what he actually did.

PS - How are you getting smiley faces to come up? Mine have been grayed out for a while now, so I thought it was done on everybody's to save 'cyber space', due to the flood of users.

And Tyrion being accused of slaying Joff/Tywin could be a good thing. Who's the two biggest antagonists of the book? Sansa and Tyrion could look like heros

ps. the top left button, next to the eraser, says Toggle editing mode. press that, hope it works

[Lyanna Stark]

Well, yes, of course I do remember that, but Tyrion didn't really slay Joffrey, even though he was 'convicted' of it. So you're speaking of what he's perceived of doing, not what he actually did.

PS - How are you getting smiley faces to come up? Mine have been grayed out for a while now, so I thought it was done on everybody's to save 'cyber space', due to the flood of users.

In this context it is irrelevant whether he did it or not: what matters is people's ideas that Tyrion will come back as an heir to Casterly Rock and with the ability to suddenly magic a happy marriage for himself and Sansa Stark.

In this context it matters very much that he's twice accused of kinslaying. Maybe eventually he will end up being cleared of both, but in the meantime, those two accusations are a serious issue for him, should he come back to Westeros. They may even be used as a reason to annul the marriage, should Sansa apply for it, since it seems unlikely the High Septon would not reconsider an unconsummated marriage where one part was twice a kinslayer.

[Buckwheat]

And Tyrion being accused of slaying Joff/Tywin could be a good thing. Who's the two biggest antagonists of the book? Sansa and Tyrion could look like heros

We do not know who will rule Westeros in the end, but I sure hope it is someone who punishes murders justly. Nobody will like a ruler that leaves such crime to be unpunished. Even if Dany/Stannis/whoever wins the throne is happy about Tywin being that, they will not be able to show it publically.

And if Sansa and Tyrion look like heroes and are treated as such, they should as well be able to choose if they want to be married still, surely. Sansa already stated that she will never want him and I believe her about this. Tyrion only wanted her pretty face and I hope he will get over soon.