(Book Spoilers) Dornish No Show?

[darrylzero]

I doubt that the Dorne plot can be moved to Season 4 as a lot of it revolves around the anger at Oberyn's death, so it'll be in S5 I reckon. But we will of course get a lot of set up in S4 with Oberyn, who will likely get an expanded role to explain a bit more of Robert's Rebellion which is pretty fuzzy in the show so far. They could easily keep the whole Myrcella crowning plot intact, it would require like 3 or 4 scenes in the first few episodes. I can just imagine getting Doran's "vengeance, fire and blood" speech in like episode 5 of S5 and then we cut to Quentyn trying to find a ship. A great way to introduce his character.

I agree with this to an extent, but aren't we looking at Tyrion's trial being the big mid-season event (or even early-season)? That would leave some room to begin Dornish plots in S4.

I suppose it depends on the placement of the purple wedding. If Oberyn is going to be cast for S3, I think that will be a big clue that the purple wedding will also appear (because they can wait to cast him until S4 if it's not going to happen yet). I don't see how you can introduce him effectively after Tyrion is already in trouble. I'm sure they could write their way around it somehow, but I'm going to operate under the assumption that the RW is the big climax of S3 -- and that the PW will be a S4 event -- if we don't see a casting announcement for Oberyn this summer.

Honestly, I'm glad that ASOS is going to be 2 seasons, more or less, but it's going to be a massive challenge to adapt. I don't see any way to give Stannis much of anything to do in S3, for example, without rushing events at the Wall horribly. I suspect a lot of the more climactic stuff from post-RW ASOS will be stuff they don't want to rush in the first half of the season, though, however they do it. And I think that means that introducing the Dornish and some new Ironborn at the beginning of S4 might be convenient, in order to let those things start to set up while you're delaying some other big moments.

[protar]

I agree with this to an extent, but aren't we looking at Tyrion's trial being the big mid-season event (or even early-season)? That would leave some room to begin Dornish plots in S4.

I suppose it depends on the placement of the purple wedding. If Oberyn is going to be cast for S3, I think that will be a big clue that the purple wedding will also appear (because they can wait to cast him until S4 if it's not going to happen yet). I don't see how you can introduce him effectively after Tyrion is already in trouble. I'm sure they could write their way around it somehow, but I'm going to operate under the assumption that the RW is the big climax of S3 -- and that the PW will be a S4 event -- if we don't see a casting announcement for Oberyn this summer.

Honestly, I'm glad that ASOS is going to be 2 seasons, more or less, but it's going to be a massive challenge to adapt. I don't see any way to give Stannis much of anything to do in S3, for example, without rushing events at the Wall horribly. I suspect a lot of the more climactic stuff from post-RW ASOS will be stuff they don't want to rush in the first half of the season, though, however they do it. And I think that means that introducing the Dornish and some new Ironborn at the beginning of S4 might be convenient, in order to let those things start to set up while you're delaying some other big moments.

I'm think that the Oberyn vs Mountain fight will happen at the end of S4 E9, with E10 being Tyrion's escape and Tywin's death. The PW will probably occur in like S4 E2, seeing as it happens quite soon after the RW. So there probably won't be any time to introduce Arianne, Doran etc. in S4. The only problem with this is that it stretches Tyrion's trial over quite a few episodes, but this shouldn't be too big a problem if they use this time to flesh out other events.

[darrylzero]

I'm think that the Oberyn vs Mountain fight will happen at the end of S4 E9, with E10 being Tyrion's escape and Tywin's death. The PW will probably occur in like S4 E2, seeing as it happens quite soon after the RW. So there probably won't be any time to introduce Arianne, Doran etc. in S4. The only problem with this is that it stretches Tyrion's trial over quite a few episodes, but this shouldn't be too big a problem if they use this time to flesh out other events.

You could well be right. Certainly it would a non-starter in terms of usual television rules to have Tyrion absent for a big chunk of the season. And I think you want time between Tywin's death and Tyrion showing up in Pentos (like, a season break's worth of time). What about this, though:

4.5 ends with purple wedding

4.6 Tyrion is scrambling to mount a defense.

4.7 Tyrion's trial.

4.8 Tyrion is in the black cells, has only one scene (with Varys). Action focused on the wall.

4.9 Tyrion's scene with Jaime, finding Shae & Tywin.

4.10 Tyrion absent for the entire episode while other important stuff is happening.

If you've introduced 1-2 Dornish players in Dorne before Tyrion's trial (even if they haven't done much of anything yet), you can show them reacting to the news in 4.8 and introduce plan Arianne's vis-a-vis Myrcella in 4.9 or 4.10. Not sure what you have them doing, though. Would it make any sense for Arianne to start sleeping with Arys before Oberyn is killed? No, right?

So, you're probably right that we don't really see them until S5. I still see problems, though, with not getting to Tyrion's trial faster. What's going on with Jaime at this point? Does this mean that he has to be in King's Landing for all of S4 and a chunk of S5 standing vigil over his father's body? I think maybe that's not enough. And Brienne? Neither has much to do in King's Landing before Tyrion's trial.

[protar]

You could well be right. Certainly it would a non-starter in terms of usual television rules to have Tyrion absent for a big chunk of the season. And I think you want time between Tywin's death and Tyrion showing up in Pentos (like, a season break's worth of time). What about this, though:

4.5 ends with purple wedding

4.6 Tyrion is scrambling to mount a defense.

4.7 Tyrion's trial.

4.8 Tyrion is in the black cells, has only one scene (with Varys). Action focused on the wall.

4.9 Tyrion's scene with Jaime, finding Shae & Tywin.

4.10 Tyrion absent for the entire episode while other important stuff is happening.

If you've introduced 1-2 Dornish players in Dorne before Tyrion's trial (even if they haven't done much of anything yet), you can show them reacting to the news in 4.8 and introduce plan Arianne's vis-a-vis Myrcella in 4.9 or 4.10. Not sure what you have them doing, though. Would it make any sense for Arianne to start sleeping with Arys before Oberyn is killed? No, right?

So, you're probably right that we don't really see them until S5. I still see problems, though, with not getting to Tyrion's trial faster. What's going on with Jaime at this point? Does this mean that he has to be in King's Landing for all of S4 and a chunk of S5 standing vigil over his father's body? I think maybe that's not enough. And Brienne? Neither has much to do in King's Landing before Tyrion's trial.

The PW can't really take place any later than S4 E3, because Jaime has to get to KL after the PW and seeing as he'll be very close to KL by the end of S3 everything else has to keep up with that. Unless Jaime arrives in time for the wedding but then that could seriously change events, depending on Jaime's reaction.

And Jaime has enough to do in KL for S4, he's governing the KG, interacting with Tywin and Cersei. As for Brienne I feel her hunt for Sansa may be moved forwards to S4, probably starting about half way through so she gets plenty to do.

I think that the Dorne plot in S5 could go as follows:

.E1: Introduces us to the characters, shows the civil unrest in Dorne and Doran deciding to lock up the Sandsnakes.

.E2: The Arianne/Arys sex scene with Arianne revealing her plan to crown Myrcella.

.E3: Myrcella's failed crowning.

.E4: Arianne locked up in the tower

.E5: Doran releases Arianne and reveals his plans to her. We then cut to Quentyn and see him trying to get a ship.

.E6: Quentyn and co. signing up for the Windblown and setting off to Slaver's Bay.

.E7: Quentyn traveling with the Windblown, is sent to be a fake deserter.

.E8: Quentyn arrives in Meereen, makes his marriage proposal ect.

.E9: Balon arrives at Sunspear with Gregor's skull

.E10-12 (Yes 12.): Not all that much, but doubtless we get a few scenes of Quentyn and possibly Arianne to remind us they still exist and have stuff to do.

[darrylzero]

The PW can't really take place any later than S4 E3, because Jaime has to get to KL after the PW and seeing as he'll be very close to KL by the end of S3 everything else has to keep up with that. Unless Jaime arrives in time for the wedding but then that could seriously change events, depending on Jaime's reaction.

And Jaime has enough to do in KL for S4, he's governing the KG, interacting with Tywin and Cersei. As for Brienne I feel her hunt for Sansa may be moved forwards to S4, probably starting about half way through so she gets plenty to do.

Good points. Two questions:

1) Why does Jaime have to be very close to KL by the end of season 3?

2) Would Jaime give Brienne Oathkeeper before Tyrion's trial?

[protar]

Good points. Two questions:

1) Why does Jaime have to be very close to KL by the end of season 3?

2) Would Jaime give Brienne Oathkeeper before Tyrion's trial?

3. Well they could change Jaime's story around but there isn't much need to. But after the RW doesn't Jaime only have one chapter before arriving in KL?

2. Why wouldn't he?

[darrylzero]

Yeah, I guess you're right. I was thinking that everything that happened with Tyrion, and Tywin's death, were key parts of his evolution in that regard, but those two things might be influences back in the other direction more than anything. It's about hearing about what's happened at Winterfell that does it, right? That's what makes him really want to honor the exchange and get Cat her daughters back at least.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Based on the religions youtube spoiler, there's a scene showing Myrcella shipping off to Dorne. I doubt that we're just not going to see her again.

Dorne will be introduced series 3/4 - probably 3 I'd imagine. They're very important for the plot long term. They've not been introduced yet because there's a myriad of other stuff they're ploughing through. My non-reader mates already find it hard to keep up with so many new characters (which I think have been tastefully integrated), so imagine if they had another whole region to contend with.

Dorne and the Martells are probably my favorite region and family along with the Targaryens. But I think that it was clear that the producers didn't want to clutter the newcomer's minds with information about a region that wasn't going to be featured until possibly season 4. I think that similar thinking led to them keeping Jaime Lannister in the storyline throughout season 2. TV viewer's have shorter attention spans in general than book readers and it's important, especially with the already huge cast, not to overload the viewer with information until it's necessary. It will also give Dorne, who's history is rather unique in the Seven Kingdoms, a season where their region's backstory can be the focus of all of their pre-season press releases and on the HBO website.