[TWoW Spoilers] Tyrion I

[Borsabil]

1. What evidence? Tywin was born in 244 AL. He became hand at the age of 20 in 264 AL. Jaime and Cersei were born in 266 AL. Tywin had been hand 2 years before the birth of his children.

2. During the Tywin's and Johanna's wedding, Aerys made jokes about the first night being abolished and took liberties (excess groping) during the disrobing part of he ceremony, in which all men at the party took part. After the disrobing, the bride and groom are carried off together to their marriage bed.

I'm pretty sure Tywn would not have a threesome with Aerys and his wife. This theory is utter nonsense.

3. I'm pretty sure its the inbreeding that has plagued the Targs. Every human has errors in some of their genes. The gene may be less functional than it should be or completely broken. However, we inherit two copies of every gene, one from each parent (except that boys only receive one X-chromosome and one Y and so only have one copy of the genes on each). So it rarely matters if some of your genes are broken, so long as the other copies are healthy and functional.

In the case of inbreeding the parents are genetically very similar and therefore carry the same genetics, but without knowing it since they both have a healthy copy. If their inbred child inherits two broken copies of the same gene, that child may be born with serious defects depending on how crucial the gene is. Genetic defects will accumulate with every generation of inbreeding. Some of the historical royal families developed nasty family diseases through generations of inter-cousin marriages that were meant to keep bloodlines pure.

You don't have to look at European royals for proof, just take a glance at the incidence of genetic abnormalities in countries where marrying of first cousins is common place. It also tends to lead to a decline in IQ amongst the population. I think GRRM based his Targ incest practices on the Eygyptian pharoes, where brother/sister marrying was encouraged to keep the Royal blood 'pure'. The results were as expected, a lot of terrible inherited disease and loads of crazies. The only part were GRRM gets it wrong, or probably just ignores, is the abnormalities and illness that should be present in the Targ line. Not to be unPC, but where are the freaks?

[Tini]

You don't have to look at European royals for proof, just take a glance at the incidence of genetic abnormalities in countries where marrying of first cousins is common place. It also tends to lead to a decline in IQ amongst the population. I think GRRM based his Targ incest practices on the Eygyptian pharoes, where brother/sister marrying was encouraged to keep the Royal blood 'pure'. The results were as expected, a lot of terrible inherited disease and loads of crazies. The only part were GRRM gets it wrong, or probably just ignores, is the abnormalities and illness that should be present in the Targ line. Not to be unPC, but where are the freaks?

Maelys the Monstrous, or whoever the king with two heads was. He was a freak. Other abnormal children may have been stillborn, or killed at birth to keep their existence secret. House Targaryen would scarcely brag about abnormalities.

Inheritable disease doesn't spring up unexpectedly often - as suggested by the word "inherited". If it isn't present in the parents (or parents' families), it is unlikely to show up in the descendants. That would be a point in favor of incest as practiced by House Targaryen. Of course, House Targaryen has the Targaryen madness showing up time and again. That is an illness right there.

Not all Targaryens married their sisters. Rhaegar did not. Wasn't Queen Alysane from Dorne? I think this influx of new blood kept the line viable.

GRRM has not left out problems that may have been caused (or at least aggravated) by inbreeding. Are you complaining that not every single member of House Targaryen is affected by them? That would be highly unlikely, too.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. ASOS in Tyrion's chapter when Kevan visits him to convince him to take the black. "He carried that burden for 20 long years."

2. We do not know whether this is the case or not. What we assume Aerys did or did not do is irrelevant unless it fits the character better. A man seeing himself as practically a dragon would likely not have the ability to restrain himself, or simply the will to do it.

3. We all know Aerys and Tywin. If Aerys snuck into Joanna's room or ordered to meet him somewhere else, do you think any trace would have reached them? Either of those people would have ripped the tongues out of the person who said that. Also, that was about 20 years before AGOT, so it would kind of be old news then. I don't think Aerys did touch Joanna after the wedding, but it's plausible.

4. Tywin saw his children as a dragon queen and lord of Casterly Rock. He did not care for Cersei, he was completely unsympathetic when forcing her to marry someone else. I would go as far as to say he loved Jaime until he decided to stay in the Kingsguard. Not much more, especially for Cersei.

5. Due to genetics, blond hair and green eyes are recessive, meaning they would not show up if there was a dominant trait (Baratheon hair in the case of Cersei's kids) and black and brown hair is dominant. Jon shows no Targaryen traits due to Lyanna having dominant traits. This means that silver hair and violet eyes have to be recessive. In that case, the hair and eye color could turn out either way. It is not unlikely, especially for reasons of plot, that two genetically similar children have two traits belonging to the mother.

6. If Aerys raped Joanna on the wedding night, Tywin would have still had to consummate it. Joanna or Tywin might not have wanted to abort the baby, especially when it might have still have been Tywin's.

1. He carried the burden of being Hand and suffering Aerys' slights and jealousy. He suffered the burdens of having a weak father. You are reading stuff into the book that is not there.

2. Once again, look to what is in the books and stop creating things that are not there. This wedding took place in Casterly Rock almost assuredly. Why would they deviate from custom?

3. Not plausible. This is not going to happen in Casterly Rock without notice. By all accounts Johana was not that kind of woman and Aerys was stupid or really all that mad at this point.

4. Another weak point. Tywin expected Cersei to do her duty for her house and get her away from Joffery. He saw what Joff had become under her parenting and needed to separate the two in order to try and fix Joff. Jaime's refusal hurt Tywin for sure, but he surely was hoping he would come to his senses. You are making too much out of this.

5. I'm not even close to being a geneticist and I'm pretty sure you are not either. So, lets keep from making definitive statements on genetics.

Aside from that, Darkstar has dark hair with a silver gold streak running through it. Additionally, I don't think blonde hair and green eyes would override Targaryen features.

6. Aerys did not rape Johana on her wedding night. Tywin and Johana were disrobed and carried away to their wedding chamber where they consummated their marriage with guards at the door.

I've already gone back on my word and addressed this theory further. I will not do so again.

[Borsabil]

Maelys the Monstrous, or whoever the king with two heads was. He was a freak. Other abnormal children may have been stillborn, or killed at birth to keep their existence secret. House Targaryen would scarcely brag about abnormalities.

Inheritable disease doesn't spring up unexpectedly often - as suggested by the word "inherited". If it isn't present in the parents (or parents' families), it is unlikely to show up in the descendants. That would be a point in favor of incest as practiced by House Targaryen. Of course, House Targaryen has the Targaryen madness showing up time and again. That is an illness right there.

Not all Targaryens married their sisters. Rhaegar did not. Wasn't Queen Alysane from Dorne? I think this influx of new blood kept the line viable.

GRRM has not left out problems that may have been caused (or at least aggravated) by inbreeding. Are you complaining that not every single member of House Targaryen is affected by them? That would be highly unlikely, too.

Yes I'm not 100% sure regarding how often the practice of marrying siblings was in the Targ line. It was my understanding that the Targ characteristics, platinum hair, purple eyes, were recessive genetic traits, the whole Baratheon dark features breeding true etc. And yet both Dany and her brothers all have the typical Targ features. Where they importing breeding stock from Essos? Just saying that Martin seems to want his cake and eat it too. The Targs are all drop dead gorgeous physical specimens, with the only genetic abnormality really commented on being insanity, but what kind of psychosis being unclear. Schizophrenia? Depression? Bi-polar? Are these really exclusively inherited traits?

[aryagonnakill]

Yes I'm not 100% sure regarding how often the practice of marrying siblings was in the Targ line. It was my understanding that the Targ characteristics, platinum hair, purple eyes, were recessive genetic traits, the whole Baratheon dark features breeding true etc. And yet both Dany and her brothers all have the typical Targ features. Where they importing breeding stock from Essos? Just saying that Martin seems to want his cake and eat it too. The Targs are all drop dead gorgeous physical specimens, with the only genetic abnormality really commented on being insanity, but what kind of psychosis being unclear. Schizophrenia? Depression? Bi-polar? Are these really exclusively inherited traits?

Recessive traits are carried within people who have dominant traits. Whoever Aerys wife was must have had the targ traits visibly, or recessively.

5. I'm not even close to being a geneticist and I'm pretty sure you are not either. So, lets keep from making definitive statements on genetics.

Aside from that, Darkstar has dark hair with a silver gold streak running through it. Additionally, I don't think blonde hair and green eyes would override Targaryen features.

I will not pretend to be a geneticist either, however I did go to school where you are taught about recessive and dominant traits. Blond hair, red hair, blue eyes, green eyes, and violet eyes which do exist in real life are all recessive traits. Also given what we are shown about Targ bloodlines, their features are also recessive. If 2 recessive traits meet, it can go either way just as Hodor said. That being said I def do not support the theory, it would be cool but just doesn't work.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

1. He carried the burden of being Hand and suffering Aerys' slights and jealousy. He suffered the burdens of having a weak father. You are reading stuff into the book that is not there.

2. Once again, look to what is in the books and stop creating things that are not there. This wedding took place in Casterly Rock almost assuredly. Why would they deviate from custom?

3. Not plausible. This is not going to happen in Casterly Rock without notice. By all accounts Johana was not that kind of woman and Aerys was stupid or really all that mad at this point.

4. Another weak point. Tywin expected Cersei to do her duty for her house and get her away from Joffery. He saw what Joff had become under her parenting and needed to separate the two in order to try and fix Joff. Jaime's refusal hurt Tywin for sure, but he surely was hoping he would come to his senses. You are making too much out of this.

5. I'm not even close to being a geneticist and I'm pretty sure you are not either. So, lets keep from making definitive statements on genetics.

Aside from that, Darkstar has dark hair with a silver gold streak running through it. Additionally, I don't think blonde hair and green eyes would override Targaryen features.

6. Aerys did not rape Johana on her wedding night. Tywin and Johana were disrobed and carried away to their wedding chamber where they consummated their marriage with guards at the door.

I've already gone back on my word and addressed this theory further. I will not do so again.

Ok, but still some issues here I will point out.

1. You asked for proof Tywin was Hand for 20 years.

2. Aerys was like Joffrey, mad, but neither of them were crazy. Joffrey would have broke the custom if it suited him.

3. Of course it wouldn't, but the thing is would it still be talked about in Kings Landing 20 years after it happened?

4. This has little to do with this, but I will address it. Tywin obviously cared for Cersei and Jaime, but only because he could mold them into what he wanted them to be, and when they didn't turn out that way, Tywin has severe displeasure, especially with Jaime's choice.

5. You do not hae to be a geneticist to understand dominant and recessive genes. Ned understood the basics of it (black hair always shows up with blond hair)

6. How do you know that?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Ok, but still some issues here I will point out.

1. You asked for proof Tywin was Hand for 20 years.

2. Aerys was like Joffrey, mad, but neither of them were crazy. Joffrey would have broke the custom if it suited him.

3. Of course it wouldn't, but the thing is would it still be talked about in Kings Landing 20 years after it happened?

4. This has little to do with this, but I will address it. Tywin obviously cared for Cersei and Jaime, but only because he could mold them into what he wanted them to be, and when they didn't turn out that way, Tywin has severe displeasure, especially with Jaime's choice.

5. You do not hae to be a geneticist to understand dominant and recessive genes. Ned understood the basics of it (black hair always shows up with blond hair)

6. How do you know that?

1. You said Tywin ruled as hand 5 years before his marriage to Johana in the original post. Thats what I was addressing. You also said that you gathered much evidence from the book supporting the theory. I never questioned Tywin's total length of time as Aerys' Hand. I firmly agree with 20 years before his resignation.

2. No, Aerys was quite lucid at this point. He was well liked and showed great promise. Tywin Lannister, his brothers, and his guards would never let Aerys do something like that. Furthermore, a violation of the king's own law for the purpose of raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeors would have been grounds for full rebellion. It would have given Tywin just cause against Aerys. In other words Tywin's rebellion would have taken shape.

3. Johanna was lady in waiting to the queen and extremely close to the princess of Dorne. These are women of the highest birth. Nothing points to Aerys being anything like Robert. If something happened at KL during those days, we would likely have heard something about it. Noting occurred at Casterly Rock, I am almost sure of it.

4. Well, I stand by my point of view. Tywin loved Jaime and Cersei greatly. The book points to it. One of the few times Tywin smiled was the secret smile his shared with Cersei and no one else when she was a girl. Jaime was showered with nothing but affection. Even as a KG, he never lacked for anything. Tywin never abandoned his plans for Jaime succeeding him.

5. Ned understood that all of Robert's bastards had his hair and looks. I doubt he gave a thought to dominant and recessive genes.

6. Because thats how bedding ceremonies go. Thats how Ned and Cats went. To think that anything different happened is just not feasible. I know you want something to have happened, but nothing points to it. Barristan was present, and like the other KG are were with Aerys night and day.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

1. You said Tywin ruled as hand 5 years before his marriage to Johana in the original post. Thats what I was addressing. You also said that you gathered much evidence from the book supporting the theory. I never questioned Tywin's total length of time as Aerys' Hand. I firmly agree with 20 years before his resignation.

2. No, Aerys was quite lucid at this point. He was well liked and showed great promise. Tywin Lannister, his brothers, and his guards would never let Aerys do something like that. Furthermore, a violation of the king's own law for the purpose of raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeors would have been grounds for full rebellion. It would have given Tywin just cause against Aerys. In other words Tywin's rebellion would have taken shape.

3. Johanna was lady in waiting to the queen and extremely close to the princess of Dorne. These are women of the highest birth. Nothing points to Aerys being anything like Robert. If something happened at KL during those days, we would likely have heard something about it. Noting occurred at Casterly Rock, I am almost sure of it.

4. Well, I stand by my point of view. Tywin loved Jaime and Cersei greatly. The book points to it. One of the few times Tywin smiled was the secret smile his shared with Cersei and no one else when she was a girl. Jaime was showered with nothing but affection. Even as a KG, he never lacked for anything. Tywin never abandoned his plans for Jaime succeeding him.

5. Ned understood that all of Robert's bastards had his hair and looks. I doubt he gave a thought to dominant and recessive genes.

6. Because thats how bedding ceremonies go. Thats how Ned and Cats went. To think that anything different happened is just not feasible. I know you want something to have happened, but nothing points to it. Barristan was present, and like the other KG are were with Aerys night and day.

1. Tywin resigned as hand when Jaime was named to the Kingsguard. He was 15 when he was named. Thus, Tywin would have had 5 years of being hand before Jaime was born.

2. Don't forget, Tywin still nursed hopes to have a girl that could marry his heir. Tywin's guards could not have done anything preventing the king from touching Joanna and this point is irrelevant because Aerys still did something.

3. So what was Barristan talking about? Something happened.

4. I guess we can agree it was more than Robert cared for Joffrey but less than Ned for his children.

5. He still understood the basis.

6. That's not how Sansa's went. It's not how Edmure's went.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. Tywin resigned as hand when Jaime was named to the Kingsguard. He was 15 when he was named. Thus, Tywin would have had 5 years of being hand before Jaime was born.

2. Don't forget, Tywin still nursed hopes to have a girl that could marry his heir. Tywin's guards could not have done anything preventing the king from touching Joanna and this point is irrelevant because Aerys still did something.

3. So what was Barristan talking about? Something happened.

4. I guess we can agree it was more than Robert cared for Joffrey but less than Ned for his children.

5. He still understood the basis.

6. That's not how Sansa's went. It's not how Edmure's went.

1. You're simply wrong on this. I don't know how else to say it. Tywin was born in 244 AL. He was named Hand at the age of twenty, which is about 265 AL. Cersei and Jaime were born in 266 AL. You do the math.

2. Aerys groped Johana during the disrobing ceremony, which all the people present took part in. As the king he took a liberty he should not have. Any other man would have been dead.

3. For the last time, Aerys groped Johana during the bedding ceremony, nothing more. nothing less.

6. Sana did not go that way because Tyrion would not give Joffery the pleasure. Edmure and Roslyn did go that way....picked by the wedding guests and taken to their bed with a trail of clothes left behind. You should reread.

Ok dude. I've said all I mean to on the subject. I never even meant to go on this far. Its that you are not reading or have forgotten much of the text. Either way, its pointless to continue this.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

1. You're simply wrong on this. I don't know how else to say it. Tywin was born in 244 AL. He was named Hand at the age of twenty, which is about 265 AL. Cersei and Jaime were born in 266 AL. You do the math.

2. Aerys groped Johana during the disrobing ceremony, which all the people present took part in. As the king he took a liberty he should not have. Any other man would have been dead.

3. For the last time, Aerys groped Johana during the bedding ceremony, nothing more. nothing less.

6. Sana did not go that way because Tyrion would not give Joffery the pleasure. Edmure and Roslyn did go that way....picked by the wedding guests and taken to their bed with a trail of clothes left behind. You should reread.

Ok dude. I've said all I mean to on the subject. I never even meant to go on this far. Its that you are not reading or have forgotten much of the text. Either way, its pointless to continue this.

2,3 How do you know that? There is no direct evidence. It also does not fit his character.

[The Dragon has three heads]

There's a thread for this.

I want to know about tyrions chapters...

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I don't believe his Winds of Winter one is out, but GRRM mentioned him being miserable.

[The Manticore Knight]

2,3 How do you know that? There is no direct evidence. It also does not fit his character.

Yes it fits. He was not mad until Duskendale. On the contrary, he was well liked and seemed quite a promising king.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Yes it fits. He was not mad until Duskendale. On the contrary, he was well liked and seemed quite a promising king.

Mad is when he started to ban all sharp objects in his presence. However, a too great sense of entitlement and self worth, much like Joffrey, would still eb enough.

[Tini]

Mad is when he started to ban all sharp objects in his presence. However, a too great sense of entitlement and self worth, much like Joffrey, would still eb enough.

No, it wouldn't. If Aerys had done more than groping during during the bedding, it would've come up in the story more directly than what we hear from Ser Barristan. There were witnesses besides the King's Guard, and they would not have kept quiet, not in Casterly Rock. People would've started gossiping about Cersei and Jaime's paternity even before they were born, and those rumors would be widely known. Tywin would have heard those rumors, would've suspected that Aerys fathered them - he wouldn't have viewed Jaime and Cersei as the fulfillment of his dreams. He would have seen them as his worst nightmare. And I think he would've made his wife drink moon tea if there was the slightest chance that her children were fathered by someone else. He wouldn't have raised them.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

No, it wouldn't. If Aerys had done more than groping during during the bedding, it would've come up in the story more directly than what we hear from Ser Barristan. There were witnesses besides the King's Guard, and they would not have kept quiet, not in Casterly Rock. People would've started gossiping about Cersei and Jaime's paternity even before they were born, and those rumors would be widely known. Tywin would have heard those rumors, would've suspected that Aerys fathered them - he wouldn't have viewed Jaime and Cersei as the fulfillment of his dreams. He would have seen them as his worst nightmare. And I think he would've made his wife drink moon tea if there was the slightest chance that her children were fathered by someone else. He wouldn't have raised them.

Continuing to address this theory and poster is like chasing your own tail. Facts, logic, and reason are irrelevant. This supporter and other posters will continue to pose annoyingly unrealistic questions and scenarios.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

No, it wouldn't. If Aerys had done more than groping during during the bedding, it would've come up in the story more directly than what we hear from Ser Barristan. There were witnesses besides the King's Guard, and they would not have kept quiet, not in Casterly Rock. People would've started gossiping about Cersei and Jaime's paternity even before they were born, and those rumors would be widely known. Tywin would have heard those rumors, would've suspected that Aerys fathered them - he wouldn't have viewed Jaime and Cersei as the fulfillment of his dreams. He would have seen them as his worst nightmare. And I think he would've made his wife drink moon tea if there was the slightest chance that her children were fathered by someone else. He wouldn't have raised them.

We would not have heard more about it because it was 20 years ago in AGOT. Also, Tywin may have suspected they were Aerys, but Joanna might not have wanted her children killed, and Tywin would not be a kinslayer in any way.

[rozemarijn]

[/quote

Continuing to address this theory and poster is like chasing your own tail. Facts, logic, and reason are irrelevant. This supporter and other posters will continue to pose annoyingly unrealistic questions and scenarios.

Of course it is unrealistic, it is about a fantasy book with dragons in it. There are no 'facts, no logic or reason' in this world, only the imagination of Martin. So unless you are Martin you should not call people annoying for posting theories. You may not agree with this one but lots of people considered this theory and it is not because you do not believe in them other people 'did not read the books properly'. There is a lot of information we have to speculate with, but I think there is only one person who knows exactly what Tywin would have done or what Aerys certainly has or has not done, and that's Martin. There are arguments and information pro and contra this theory and everyone is free to add and or believe what ever he wants. If you don't buy it, don't believe it, see if I care. But please do not pretend you know everything about every character and what will or will not happen, but try to make decent arguments with content. It seems very arrogant this way and is not nice to read.

To be honest, I really hope Tyrion will turn out to be Aerys bastard child with Joanna. It would serve you right.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

[/quote

Of course it is unrealistic, it is about a fantasy book with dragons in it. There are no 'facts, no logic or reason' in this world, only the imagination of Martin. So unless you are Martin you should not call people annoying for posting theories. You may not agree with this one but lots of people considered this theory and it is not because you do not believe in them other people 'did not read the books properly'. There is a lot of information we have to speculate with, but I think there is only one person who knows exactly what Tywin would have done or what Aerys certainly has or has not done, and that's Martin. There are arguments and information pro and contra this theory and everyone is free to add and or believe what ever he wants. If you don't buy it, don't believe it, see if I care. But please do not pretend you know everything about every character and what will or will not happen, but try to make decent arguments with content. It seems very arrogant this way and is not nice to read.

To be honest, I really hope Tyrion will turn out to be Aerys bastard child with Joanna. It would serve you right.

Boy, I guess you really told me off....not really.

1. Within GRRM's realm of fantasy, there are facts, numbers, logic, and other data that comes from the very pages of the text, and from what the author has told us himself.

For example: Robb is the son of Ned and Catelyn Stark, Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne, Jamie and Cersei are twins. These are not disputed. That are facts within the realm of the fantasy series we call "A Song of Ice and Fire."

2. Still with me? From these facts and other pieces of information it is more than proper to strike down naked assertions that run counter to the established facts and given information.

3. If you like this theory and feel so strongly about it, post about it in a more appropriate thread that is dedicated to this particular theory. If would leave the serious reader to address logical theories regarding Tyrion and the TWOW.

4. I have never, nor will I ever presume to know the mind of a legendary author like GRRM. But I will use the information that he has given me to question posters like you everyday and all day.

I hope Hodor is Tyrion's father. It would serve you right and be just as logical as the theory you are putting forth.

[Tini]

We would not have heard more about it because it was 20 years ago in AGOT. Also, Tywin may have suspected they were Aerys, but Joanna might not have wanted her children killed, and Tywin would not be a kinslayer in any way.

Yes, we would have heard about it. Just as we heard about what Tywin did to the Reynes and Castameres. Just as we heard about Jaime slaying Aerys. Cersei and Jaime would've grown up with those rumors as well - and they never ever consider the possibility that Aerys is their father. Those rumors would've popped up again when Cersei married Robert, they would've popped up again in conjunction with the rumors that Cersei's children were not Robert Baratheon's. They would've popped up again in Cersei's trial. Such scandals are never completely forgotten.

Joanna would not have wanted her children killed - but when she got married they were not her children yet, not Cersei and Jaime, not Tyrion. If she was raped, a pregnancy was no more than an unwanted possibility. She might've drunk moon tea voluntarily.

I think Tywin is not at all opposed to kinslaying, as long as he isn't the victim. Especially if he only gives the order and someone else takes the killing blow. I have no more proof for this than you have for the claim that Tywin would never be a kinslayer. I think my theory fits his character better. Tywin was a very proud man. He would not have loved another man's bastard, and he wouldn't have raised him as his heir.