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Ran

[TWoW Spoilers] Tyrion I

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Tywin was a very proud man. He would not have loved another man's bastard, and he wouldn't have raised him as his heir.

I think this works, as long as you are speaking about Jaime and Cersei. I don't believe they are the children of Aerys. I do think there is some question about Tyrion. I don't know anything about opportunity and how the raping of Joanne would have taken place. But your quote: he would not love and he would not raise him as his heir. Those two things fit exactly for Tyrion. He did not love him and he did not want him to have Casterly Rock.

So why not? Only because he was a dwarf? He is perfectly capable of getting married and provide an heir, just as he has all his mental abilities, he turns out to be quite smart. There is absolutely no reason why he could not rule Casterly Rock.

Because of the whoring? We already found out Tywin is a hypocrite on this matter. Perhaps he considers Tyrion not to subtle about it, but there had been problems between the two before Tyrion his 'sexual age'.

Because of the death of Joanna? This may be enough ground for Cersei, but Cersei was a little girl when her mother died. Tywin should be able to be more rational. After all childbirth is kind of common in the Seven Kingdoms.

All these reasons are so cliché, it might be possible there is more. If you consider Joanna was raped and got pregnant with Tyrion, what would Tywin do? He wants his daughter to marry Rhaegar and be queen, he is hand of the king. Is it in his best interest and those of his family to start a rebellion against Aerys? Not at all. Also, he loved his wife. He would not shame her in front of the whole Seven Kingdoms. The best thing he probably could do was keep his wife far away from Aerys and pretend nothing had happened. It seems to be the most rational decision. After all, Jaime would inherit Casterly Rock. Yet everything did not turn out as planned. He turned away from Aerys only after he refused to marry Cersei to Rhaegar and to put Jaime in the Kingsguard. After that, his wife was dead and what would he gain with his accusations against Aerys? Nothing.

If it did happen, Barristan knows about it, or has information to suspect it. There are other things only the kingsguard knows. And in this chapter Tyrion is working very hard to get at Dany's side, where Barristan also is. Tyrion will work very hard to get into her good graces, she is a golden ticket to revenge. And there are dragons flying around to 'proof' his true parentage. I guess if this theory has any ground we will soon know it.

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Yes, we would have heard about it. Just as we heard about what Tywin did to the Reynes and Castameres. Just as we heard about Jaime slaying Aerys. Cersei and Jaime would've grown up with those rumors as well - and they never ever consider the possibility that Aerys is their father. Those rumors would've popped up again when Cersei married Robert, they would've popped up again in conjunction with the rumors that Cersei's children were not Robert Baratheon's. They would've popped up again in Cersei's trial. Such scandals are never completely forgotten.

Joanna would not have wanted her children killed - but when she got married they were not her children yet, not Cersei and Jaime, not Tyrion. If she was raped, a pregnancy was no more than an unwanted possibility. She might've drunk moon tea voluntarily.

I think Tywin is not at all opposed to kinslaying, as long as he isn't the victim. Especially if he only gives the order and someone else takes the killing blow. I have no more proof for this than you have for the claim that Tywin would never be a kinslayer. I think my theory fits his character better. Tywin was a very proud man. He would not have loved another man's bastard, and he wouldn't have raised him as his heir.

Well said. As I have said, the moontea is one of the defining factors for me. From all accounts, and by that I mean from all the information given to us by the author, Tywin and Johanna were very much in love, and Tywin was ruled by Johanna at home. Add to this the fact that abortion is readily available in the Seven Kingdoms, and you have the probability of children being born of some fictitious rape being slim to none.

The only way Johanna would not have drank moontea is that she knew she was already pregnant with her husband's child.

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I think this works, as long as you are speaking about Jaime and Cersei. I don't believe they are the children of Aerys. I do think there is some question about Tyrion. I don't know anything about opportunity and how the raping of Joanne would have taken place. But your quote: he would not love and he would not raise him as his heir. Those two things fit exactly for Tyrion. He did not love him and he did not want him to have Casterly Rock.

So why not? Only because he was a dwarf? He is perfectly capable of getting married and provide an heir, just as he has all his mental abilities, he turns out to be quite smart. There is absolutely no reason why he could not rule Casterly Rock.

Because of the whoring? We already found out Tywin is a hypocrite on this matter. Perhaps he considers Tyrion not to subtle about it, but there had been problems between the two before Tyrion his 'sexual age'.

Because of the death of Joanna? This may be enough ground for Cersei, but Cersei was a little girl when her mother died. Tywin should be able to be more rational. After all childbirth is kind of common in the Seven Kingdoms.

All these reasons are so cliché, it might be possible there is more. If you consider Joanna was raped and got pregnant with Tyrion, what would Tywin do? He wants his daughter to marry Rhaegar and be queen, he is hand of the king. Is it in his best interest and those of his family to start a rebellion against Aerys? Not at all. Also, he loved his wife. He would not shame her in front of the whole Seven Kingdoms. The best thing he probably could do was keep his wife far away from Aerys and pretend nothing had happened. It seems to be the most rational decision. After all, Jaime would inherit Casterly Rock. Yet everything did not turn out as planned. He turned away from Aerys only after he refused to marry Cersei to Rhaegar and to put Jaime in the Kingsguard. After that, his wife was dead and what would he gain with his accusations against Aerys? Nothing.

If it did happen, Barristan knows about it, or has information to suspect it. There are other things only the kingsguard knows. And in this chapter Tyrion is working very hard to get at Dany's side, where Barristan also is. Tyrion will work very hard to get into her good graces, she is a golden ticket to revenge. And there are dragons flying around to 'proof' his true parentage. I guess if this theory has any ground we will soon know it.

Tywin hated laughter and most of all he hated being laughed at. His father was a weakling who was laughed at and not respected by his bannerman. Tywin had to suffer through the near ruin of his house until he was old enough to go to war. He taught the Reynes and Tarbecks a lesson the real would never forget. He taught his father's whore a lesson the realm would never forget.

Tyrion was and has been a source of mock and laughter aimed at Tywin and house Lannister. Worse of all, Tywin's beloved wife died giving birth to what perceives is an abomination. He had his beloved and prized heir stripped from him and taken away by Aerys. How could he expect a dwarf to hold and maintain the family name. For all of Tyrion's gifts he is not respected by anyone. Tywin tried to find matches for Tyrion and was soundly rejected at every turn. Hoster Tully would not continue the proposed marriage alliance and instead married his daughter to an old man three times her age, thus ruining her. Even the Florent girl Robert shamed in Stannis' marriage bed would not have Tyrion.

It all of this is too cliche' and plain for you, sorry but this fits with Tywin's character and serves perfectly as to why Tywin would want him gone. Tywin never gave up hope of Jaime succeeding him.

As to Barristan, he would have given us more than liberties if something more than groping happened. Aerys is the king and never unguarded by any of his King's Guard. Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Prince Lewyn, Oswell Whent, and Ser Jonothar Dary would have all known. They keep the king's secrets from others, but not each other. They would not have kept it from Jaime. As honorable as Barristan and Arthur Dayne are/were, they would have seen some cause in Jaime's slaying of Aerys.

The idea that some fictional rape of Johanna occurred within the confines of Casterly Rock and no one knew is insane.

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Tywin hated laughter and most of all he hated being laughed at. His father was a weakling who was laughed at and not respected by his bannerman. Tywin had to suffer through the near ruin of his house until he was old enough to go to war. He taught the Reynes and Tarbecks a lesson the real would never forget. He taught his father's whore a lesson the realm would never forget.

Tyrion was and has been a source of mock and laughter aimed at Tywin and house Lannister. Worse of all, Tywin's beloved wife died giving birth to what perceives is an abomination. He had his beloved and prized heir stripped from him and taken away by Aerys. How could he expect a dwarf to hold and maintain the family name. For all of Tyrion's gifts he is not respected by anyone. Tywin tried to find matches for Tyrion and was soundly rejected at every turn. Hoster Tully would not continue the proposed marriage alliance and instead married his daughter to an old man three times her age, thus ruining her. Even the Florent girl Robert shamed in Stannis' marriage bed would not have Tyrion.

It all of this is too cliche' and plain for you, sorry but this fits with Tywin's character and serves perfectly as to why Tywin would want him gone. Tywin never gave up hope of Jaime succeeding him.

As to Barristan, he would have given us more than liberties if something more than groping happened. Aerys is the king and never unguarded by any of his King's Guard. Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Prince Lewyn, Oswell Whent, and Ser Jonothar Dary would have all known. They keep the king's secrets from others, but not each other. They would not have kept it from Jaime. As honorable as Barristan and Arthur Dayne are/were, they would have seen some cause in Jaime's slaying of Aerys.

The idea that some fictional rape of Johanna occurred within the confines of Casterly Rock and no one knew is insane.

I agree with everything about Tywin. For all the people that hate him (I do as well) he was a very good lord and commander. The only things we hate about him are his treatment of people (mainly Tyrion) and his part in murdering Robb. However, if we look at his character, we see he actually has sound grounds for hating Tyrion (for medieval ages that is) and he did provide the realm with peace for so long. I wish more people could respect him, but he was still a pretty horrible person.

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Tyrion was and has been a source of mock and laughter aimed at Tywin and house Lannister. Worse of all, Tywin's beloved wife died giving birth to what perceives is an abomination. He had his beloved and prized heir stripped from him and taken away by Aerys. How could he expect a dwarf to hold and maintain the family name. For all of Tyrion's gifts he is not respected by anyone. Tywin tried to find matches for Tyrion and was soundly rejected at every turn. Hoster Tully would not continue the proposed marriage alliance and instead married his daughter to an old man three times her age, thus ruining her. Even the Florent girl Robert shamed in Stannis' marriage bed would not have Tyrion.

As to Barristan, he would have given us more than liberties if something more than groping happened. Aerys is the king and never unguarded by any of his King's Guard. Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Prince Lewyn, Oswell Whent, and Ser Jonothar Dary would have all known. They keep the king's secrets from others, but not each other. They would not have kept it from Jaime. As honorable as Barristan and Arthur Dayne are/were, they would have seen some cause in Jaime's slaying of Aerys.

Actually, this isn't true. Sansa was told by a Tyrell on her marriage Tyrion was a bigger man as he seemed, Barristan appreciates him too. Through the series we can see, especially after the battle of Kings Landing. A lot of people whom have in one way of another got to know him a little better like him. Tyrion his reputation is based on prejudice, by the smallfolk and by the nobleman. The only two people who think badly about Tyrion after meeting and conversing with him are Cersei and his father.

About the kingsguard. Who on earth would tell a young boy the king he is protecting has raped his mother? And after all, most of the kingsguard is slaughtered by Ned Stark at the tower of joy so they did not have much time to spread stories.

About the moontea. Difficult to explain. She could have had moral objections, perhaps it did not work, or perhaps she did not trust the maester (look what happened to Margaery), perhaps she did not think about it or thought it necessary? We do not know a lot about how moontea works. It looks an anticonceptiva rather then an abortion method.

Edit: that's not true. Lysa Tully got an abortion.

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My 2 cents here is only to add that since Tywin was perfectly fine with abandoning guest rights I don't think he would have had any problem killing Tyrion is he had any thought he was Aerys child. However, there is an example of Tywin not knowing everything that went on at Casterly Rock, ie. Jaime and Cersei after the serving woman found them. I had thought Tyrion a targ until the line in feast from Tywins sister when she tells Jaime why Tywin was mad at her for so long. This is not exact but it was something like. "I told Tywin that Tyrion was his true son and he has never talked to me since."

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My 2 cents here is only to add that since Tywin was perfectly fine with abandoning guest rights I don't think he would have had any problem killing Tyrion is he had any thought he was Aerys child. However, there is an example of Tywin not knowing everything that went on at Casterly Rock, ie. Jaime and Cersei after the serving woman found them. I had thought Tyrion a targ until the line in feast from Tywins sister when she tells Jaime why Tywin was mad at her for so long. This is not exact but it was something like. "I told Tywin that Tyrion was his true son and he has never talked to me since."

It was something to the degree of "But Tyrion is your (Jaime's) lord father's heir. I once told him that, and he wouldn't speak to me for over a year." I think she meant it as Tyrion has more of Tywin in him than Jaime, and Tywin got mad because his own blood said the son he hated was more like him than the son he adored.

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Actually, this isn't true. Sansa was told by a Tyrell on her marriage Tyrion was a bigger man as he seemed, Barristan appreciates him too. Through the series we can see, especially after the battle of Kings Landing. A lot of people whom have in one way of another got to know him a little better like him. Tyrion his reputation is based on prejudice, by the smallfolk and by the nobleman. The only two people who think badly about Tyrion after meeting and conversing with him are Cersei and his father.

About the kingsguard. Who on earth would tell a young boy the king he is protecting has raped his mother? And after all, most of the kingsguard is slaughtered by Ned Stark at the tower of joy so they did not have much time to spread stories.

About the moontea. Difficult to explain. She could have had moral objections, perhaps it did not work, or perhaps she did not trust the maester (look what happened to Margaery), perhaps she did not think about it or thought it necessary? We do not know a lot about how moontea works. It looks an anticonceptiva rather then an abortion method.

Edit: that's not true. Lysa Tully got an abortion.

1. I'm not sure what you are talking about on the Tyrion being bigger thing. That my be a TV series quote. Anyway, its the troops and lesser lords of the West the Seven Kingdoms that count. Like it or not, no one respects a dwarf. Think back to his trial for killing Joffery and entire throne room laughing at him when Shae calls him her "Gian of Lannister."

2. Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Prince Lewyn of Dorne are what chivalry and honor are all about. First of all, I doubt they would let Aerys commit such an act. They would protect the king by protecting Lady Johanna. The KG are a sworn brotherhood that keeps the king's secrets from others, but not each other. Jaime was their sworn brother, not some teenager as you put it. He was a man grown in the eyes of the realm and the times. Like it or not, we would have heard something about this fictitious rape.

3. Its not hard to explain because it did not happen. She would have taken moon tea to kill her rapists baby. The only reason to not do so is that she was already pregnant with her husband's child.

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My 2 cents here is only to add that since Tywin was perfectly fine with abandoning guest rights I don't think he would have had any problem killing Tyrion is he had any thought he was Aerys child. However, there is an example of Tywin not knowing everything that went on at Casterly Rock, ie. Jaime and Cersei after the serving woman found them. I had thought Tyrion a targ until the line in feast from Tywins sister when she tells Jaime why Tywin was mad at her for so long. This is not exact but it was something like. "I told Tywin that Tyrion was his true son and he has never talked to me since."

Tywin did not abandon guest right....Walder Frey did. Tywin tells this to Tyrion after Tyrion questioned him on the very subject. As for Tywin not knowing about Cersie and Jaime, he was away in King's Landing being Hand of the King when this occurred. The maid was likely loyal to the Lady of the House and went straight to her. Lady Johanna acted quickly and decisively to ensure the situation never repeated itself at Casterly Rock.

Remember, Tywin may have ruled the Kingdoms in Aerys' stead, but he was ruled at home by Lady Johanna. She was no weakling and likely took steps to ensure the maid's complete and utter silence.

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It was something to the degree of "But Tyrion is your (Jaime's) lord father's heir. I once told him that, and he wouldn't speak to me for over a year." I think she meant it as Tyrion has more of Tywin in him than Jaime, and Tywin got mad because his own blood said the son he hated was more like him than the son he adored.

She meant is both figuratively and literally. Of all the things that Tyrion did not get from Tywin (physical features), he got the best part of him. The part that not even Jaime or Cersei got. He inherited his father's mind.

I know you guys are going to continue stretching things to put forth this theory, but there is simply no textual support for any of Tywin's children not being his. It simply makes no sense, even if imply or stretch facts and scenarios. Its fine to want it to be so, but at least be realistic.

It would be nice to stick to TWoW spoiler concerning Tyrion.

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First of all, I doubt they would let Aerys commit such an act.

The Kingsguard doesn't tell the king what to do. That's been made very clear. Recall Ser Jonothor Darry's words to Jaime.

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The Kingsguard doesn't tell the king what to do. That's been made very clear. Recall Ser Jonothor Darry's words to Jaime.

Recall Jamie's words to Ser Meryn Trant and the rest of the King's Guard for following Joffery's orders to beat Sansa Stark. Part of their job is protect the king from himself.

If such an act occurred, which it did not, knights like Ser Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne would have protected the king from himself.

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Recall Jamie's words to Ser Meryn Trant and the rest of the King's Guard for following Joffery's orders to beat Sansa Stark. Part of their job is protect the king from himself.

If such an act occurred, which it did not, knights like Ser Barristan and Ser Arthur Dayne would have protected the king from himself.

Joffrey was king but he was also a child - and yet the King's Guard fulfilled his orders to beat Sansa. Aerys was a grown man. He dealt with people he considered traitors mercilessly. The KG did what Aerys ordered, or they would be replaced with someone more obedient.

They could not protect Aerys from himself - but they had to protect him from anybody else. There were other people present. If Aerys raped Johanna, those witnesses would not have stood by with stony faces, they would have interfered; there would've almost certainly been bloodshed.

And Aerys could not even cite the right of first night as excuse for such an action. Even if it had not been abolished, it applied to serfs. Johanna Lannister was not one of Aerys' serfs. She was a noble woman of highest birth.

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Read the books people

The idea of Arys and Johanna was that he took excess liberties on the wedding night. Now this is a bawdy affair where all the guys stripped the bride and had a bit of a feel. Now the old "first night" which was actually KEPT in feudal times, gave the lord the right to the first night of the bride (There is an Opera all about it).

So Aerys may have gone too far on the wedding night. There would therefore be doubt as to just who Cersai and Jaime belonged to. Indeed it is POSSIBLE that they had DIFFERENT fathers ie they are not identical twins and this is known to happen occasionally.

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Joffrey was king but he was also a child - and yet the King's Guard fulfilled his orders to beat Sansa. Aerys was a grown man. He dealt with people he considered traitors mercilessly. The KG did what Aerys ordered, or they would be replaced with someone more obedient.

They could not protect Aerys from himself - but they had to protect him from anybody else. There were other people present. If Aerys raped Johanna, those witnesses would not have stood by with stony faces, they would have interfered; there would've almost certainly been bloodshed.

And Aerys could not even cite the right of first night as excuse for such an action. Even if it had not been abolished, it applied to serfs. Johanna Lannister was not one of Aerys' serfs. She was a noble woman of highest birth.

You cannot compare Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, and Gerold Hightower with the likes of Meryn Trant, Boros Blunt, and Mandon Moore. Thats like comparing a Lexus with a Lincoln Navigator. A KG can and should protect the king from himself. I firmly agree with the rest of your argument. There is simply noway Johanna Lannister is going to be assaulted in the confines of Casterly Rock on her wedding night. To assume otherwise is simply nonsense.

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Read the books people

The idea of Arys and Johanna was that he took excess liberties on the wedding night. Now this is a bawdy affair where all the guys stripped the bride and had a bit of a feel. Now the old "first night" which was actually KEPT in feudal times, gave the lord the right to the first night of the bride (There is an Opera all about it).

So Aerys may have gone too far on the wedding night. There would therefore be doubt as to just who Cersai and Jaime belonged to. Indeed it is POSSIBLE that they had DIFFERENT fathers ie they are not identical twins and this is known to happen occasionally.

Its you who need to reread the books:

1. The first night was abolished by king Jaehaerys I during his reign (48 AL - 103 AL). His reign ended 140 years before Aerys was even born.

2. At the wedding of Tywin to Joanna, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the First Night tradition was banned and took certain liberties in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride. This was excess groping and nothing more.

I think we can be pretty sure that Aerys didn't just whip it out and give Joanna a bit of the old in-out, in-out right there in front of Tywin and the Western nobility. After the disrobing the bride and groom were carried to their martial bed and consummated their marriage. I can assure you Aerys was not there.

What you are talking about is not possible or realistic given the circumstances.

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Read the books people

The idea of Arys and Johanna was that he took excess liberties on the wedding night. Now this is a bawdy affair where all the guys stripped the bride and had a bit of a feel. Now the old "first night" which was actually KEPT in feudal times, gave the lord the right to the first night of the bride (There is an Opera all about it).

Read a decent history book! The First night is nothing more than a myth.

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He likely saw it on Bravehart and took it for fact.

:bowdown:

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