Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ran

[TWoW Spoilers] Tyrion I

Recommended Posts

Sounds like an exciting chapter with more big things to come on the Meereen front.

From what I remember, it was Aemon's choice to go to the Wall because he still had enemies. I think those were probably politicial rivals. He shows no fear in AFFC at returning to the Citadel but he has outlived just about everyone who was there when he last visited.

Victarion and Jorah...that should be an epic meeting between two guys who make terrible choices. Which one can screw up in front of Dany first?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Barristan would never support Iron Born. He fought against them and knows he can't trust them. Especially those like Victarion who believe firmly in the Old Way.

He will be forced to use their help. But reluctantly.

I agree, Barristan would have a healthy contempt of Victarion and the rest of the Ironborn, especially since he fought in the first Greyjoy Rebellion and subdued Old Wyk. Jorah would have some contempt as well as IceTurtle pointed out.

Tyrion may get into trouble with Vic using his tongue, but Tyrion has dealt with men like Victarion before, Shagga, Timmett and the rest of the mountain clansmen. He may able to get Victarion under his thumb being Victarion is a follower and not very bright.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vic is not Dany's type. He may be big and strong, but he is neither dashing nor bright. Even Quentyn had a lot better chances to seduce/slip into Dany's bed. I admit that 'Fire and Blood' Daenerys might not be that opposed to the Ironborn's Old Way, but come on, no one can honestly believe that Dany will go along with Vic's own interpretation of freeing slaves.

If Dany is going to ally/team up with the Ironborn, if she is going to marry Victarion or Euron, she will come as a foreign conqueror to Westeros. Dragons or no, the whole Realm is going to unite against a Targaryen-Greyjoy puppet queen who serves as a tool to enforce Ironborn culture on the whole of Westeros...

The chances for this happening are not that good. The Volantenes will come as well, and the Widow has already promised us that the tigers will rebel. This will give Daenerys yet another fleet, a fleet that is larger than Victarion's, which, combined with the long ships of the Ironborn, will enable her to get all her people to Westeros (i.e. her khalasar, Jhaqo's khalasar, the Unsullied, her freedmen/Meereenese shavepates - those among them who want to accompany her, at least - the Stormcrows, the Second Sons, the Windblown, the Ironborn, and the Volantene tigers).

I doubt that Dragonbinder will be able to separate Dany and Drogon. He is hers now, as I see it. And despite Victarion's attempts to use the horn to bind a dragon to his will, I'm quite sure that this will backfire is a rather unexpected way. If the information from Victarion I about the dusky woman putting Vic's blood on the horn is accurate, I fear for Victarion...

But even if everything works, it's already confirmed that one man can only ride one dragon - there was no exception to this rule even in Valyria. So if the horn works and Rhaegal and Viserion come to Victarion (that he intends to have Dragonbinder blown three times indicates that he hopes to subjugate all three dragons), whatever spell is going to bind them, it will break as soon as Vic chooses his dragon. The other will either leave and/or attack him, I guess.

As to the first meeting between Tyrion and Barristan:

I strongly suspect this will be an utter surprise for Tyrion. Tyrion and Selmy should be acquainted from court, but it's remarkable/suspicious that Tyrion does not remember a conversation with Selmy when he remembers considering revealing himself to him and Dany in ADwD. I strongly suspect Selmy will be the man who reveals a certain thing about Tyrion's heritage. If he is indeed Aerys's bastard, this will be his entrance into the court. It will be the one thing that is going to prevent Selmy from executing Tyrion on sight. There is no way that Selmy would accept a condemned kin- and kingslayer among Dany's council. But considering the fact that Dany has (supposedly) no living relatives left, and killing Dany's half-brother would be considered kinslaying as well, Selmy will stay his hand. Tyrion needs a chance to prove his worth. And being not Tywin's biological son and Dany's half-brother will give a new purpose. Both Dany and Tyrion need to form a lasting alliance, some kind of connection that will motivate them to return to Westeros. Back in ADwD Tyrion finally ended up not wanting to kill himself, but he still lacked a strong motivation to return to Westeros.

Being Dany's half-brother could open more than just a door to him. He will be one of the dragonriders, that much we all expect to happen, but considering the Targaryen incest thing this could even make it possible for Tyrion to become Dany's consort. I'm not sure that she will end up loving him (nor am I sure that Tyrion will be all that attracted to Daenerys), but they might, well, be more fond of each other than Hizdahr and Dany were... ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the thoughts, Varys, but I would be SO disappointed if Tyrion ended up being Aerys's son.

George seems to be setting up Jaime and Cersei for that, though. Unnecessary, but at least it'd be cool for Jaime to find out he killed his father as opposed to ripping all that family drama AWAY from Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the thoughts, Varys, but I would be SO disappointed if Tyrion ended up being Aerys's son.

George seems to be setting up Jaime and Cersei for that, though. Unnecessary, but at least it'd be cool for Jaime to find out he killed his father as opposed to ripping all that family drama AWAY from Tyrion.

Agree fully on the first count — please, for the love of God, no more secret Targs. On the second, I'll add, no more secret Targs ... BUT the twins make a crap ton more sense than Tyrion. Tyrion being a Targ would destroy so much complexity in Tyrion and Tywin's dynamic that it makes me feel sort of sick thinking about it. I fervently hope it's not true.

On a lighter note, I feel vindicated for saying all along that they were catapulting plague victims and not the hostages. B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am expecting at least one of those four to die as a result of their encounter(s): Victarion, Jorah, Barristan, Tyrion.

It will also depend on how Dany will react on Moqorro (sp?). I hope Drogon shows Moqorro who is the master of fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the thoughts, Varys, but I would be SO disappointed if Tyrion ended up being Aerys's son.

George seems to be setting up Jaime and Cersei for that, though. Unnecessary, but at least it'd be cool for Jaime to find out he killed his father as opposed to ripping all that family drama AWAY from Tyrion.

Yeah, if both Jaime and Tyrion killed their fathers it will be way cooler than if neither of them did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am expecting at least one of those four to die as a result of their encounter(s): Victarion, Jorah, Barristan, Tyrion.

It will also depend on how Dany will react on Moqorro (sp?). I hope Drogon shows Moqorro who is the master of fire.

I fully expect Jorah to at either the hands of Daario or Vic (more likely)

I expect Darrio to die either in captivity, at the hands of Barry or at the hands of Vic.

I kind of expect Barry to die or old age before he reaches Westeros (although I hope not).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like GRRM is going to give us an epic battle this time, four POVs at the same place. From all the sides Dany seems to be winning but I believe she will lose this time or win the battle but lose her dragons, she have been warned several times of Euron, and after this battle she needs an urgent need to quickly depart to Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vic is not Dany's type. He may be big and strong, but he is neither dashing nor bright. Even Quentyn had a lot better chances to seduce/slip into Dany's bed. I admit that 'Fire and Blood' Daenerys might not be that opposed to the Ironborn's Old Way, but come on, no one can honestly believe that Dany will go along with Vic's own interpretation of freeing slaves.

If Dany is going to ally/team up with the Ironborn, if she is going to marry Victarion or Euron, she will come as a foreign conqueror to Westeros. Dragons or no, the whole Realm is going to unite against a Targaryen-Greyjoy puppet queen who serves as a tool to enforce Ironborn culture on the whole of Westeros...

The chances for this happening are not that good. The Volantenes will come as well, and the Widow has already promised us that the tigers will rebel. This will give Daenerys yet another fleet, a fleet that is larger than Victarion's, which, combined with the long ships of the Ironborn, will enable her to get all her people to Westeros (i.e. her khalasar, Jhaqo's khalasar, the Unsullied, her freedmen/Meereenese shavepates - those among them who want to accompany her, at least - the Stormcrows, the Second Sons, the Windblown, the Ironborn, and the Volantene tigers).

I doubt that Dragonbinder will be able to separate Dany and Drogon. He is hers now, as I see it. And despite Victarion's attempts to use the horn to bind a dragon to his will, I'm quite sure that this will backfire is a rather unexpected way. If the information from Victarion I about the dusky woman putting Vic's blood on the horn is accurate, I fear for Victarion...

But even if everything works, it's already confirmed that one man can only ride one dragon - there was no exception to this rule even in Valyria. So if the horn works and Rhaegal and Viserion come to Victarion (that he intends to have Dragonbinder blown three times indicates that he hopes to subjugate all three dragons), whatever spell is going to bind them, it will break as soon as Vic chooses his dragon. The other will either leave and/or attack him, I guess.

As to the first meeting between Tyrion and Barristan:

I strongly suspect this will be an utter surprise for Tyrion. Tyrion and Selmy should be acquainted from court, but it's remarkable/suspicious that Tyrion does not remember a conversation with Selmy when he remembers considering revealing himself to him and Dany in ADwD. I strongly suspect Selmy will be the man who reveals a certain thing about Tyrion's heritage. If he is indeed Aerys's bastard, this will be his entrance into the court. It will be the one thing that is going to prevent Selmy from executing Tyrion on sight. There is no way that Selmy would accept a condemned kin- and kingslayer among Dany's council. But considering the fact that Dany has (supposedly) no living relatives left, and killing Dany's half-brother would be considered kinslaying as well, Selmy will stay his hand. Tyrion needs a chance to prove his worth. And being not Tywin's biological son and Dany's half-brother will give a new purpose. Both Dany and Tyrion need to form a lasting alliance, some kind of connection that will motivate them to return to Westeros. Back in ADwD Tyrion finally ended up not wanting to kill himself, but he still lacked a strong motivation to return to Westeros.

Being Dany's half-brother could open more than just a door to him. He will be one of the dragonriders, that much we all expect to happen, but considering the Targaryen incest thing this could even make it possible for Tyrion to become Dany's consort. I'm not sure that she will end up loving him (nor am I sure that Tyrion will be all that attracted to Daenerys), but they might, well, be more fond of each other than Hizdahr and Dany were... ;-)

I disagree with most of your opinion, actually. Let me try to explain why.

On Victarion: I don't know what part will the dragon horn play, but I believe that Dany and Victarion will have some sort of relationship, even if not exactly romantic. He does seems to fit her type, like Daario and Drogo, but the most important trait is that he fits the second Bride of Fire vision, so Dany will probably go back to Westeros with him, not on random Volantene ship. And I don't think Vic is the kind of guy that asks for permission or wait for a lady's orders, so I hope there is some kind of trouble there.

On Tyrion: I also hope he is not a Targ. The reason Barristan will acknowledge 3 convited traitors in his counsil is because he needs them. He doesn't have the numbers to defeat Yunkai, even with the Ironborn at his side and he doesn't know the Volantenes will probably change sides. He is starting to understand the responsability of ruling and will forsake his pride for the sake of Meereen. The real problem will come when the fight is over and there is no urgent need of these armies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vic is not Dany's type. He may be big and strong, but he is neither dashing nor bright… And despite Victarion's attempts to use the horn to bind a dragon to his will, I'm quite sure that this will backfire is a rather unexpected way. If the information from Victarion I about the dusky woman putting Vic's blood on the horn is accurate, I fear for Victarion...

Euron is with the Iron Fleet. He is going to sacrifice Vic to claim the horn. Vic will die without ever meeting Tyrion, Jorah, or Barristan. The ironborn will defeat the Yunkish fleet and Euron will claim a dragon with the horn. Thus, contra Quentyn, Dany will return to meet a dashing, smart, extremely powerful ironborn conqueror who's tamed a dragon.

If Dany is going to ally/team up with the Ironborn, if she is going to marry Victarion or Euron, she will come as a foreign conqueror to Westeros. Dragons or no, the whole Realm is going to unite against a Targaryen-Greyjoy puppet queen who serves as a tool to enforce Ironborn culture on the whole of Westeros...

Everything is pointing toward Dany's invading coalition being tremendously unpopular -- Dothraki, ironborn, and a noseless kinslaying kingslaying dwarf. She had a chance for the Dornish road and she let it slip through her fingers. Aegon will conquer the South in TWOW and stability will start to return, until Dany and her invaders show up to screw everything up again.

(This is foreshadowed when Tyrion plays cyvasse with Aegon and tells him that above all, he must reach Westeros before Cersei loses power -- "But do not wait too long, my prince. The moment will not last. The tide that lifts you now will soon recede. Be certain you reach Westeros before my sister falls and someone more competent takes her place.” Aegon will succeed in this and be the more competent person. Dany will arrive too late and will have lost the savior mantle.)

There is no way that Selmy would accept a condemned kin- and kingslayer among Dany's council.

First, Barristan has changed -- he's already organized a coup against Hizdahr and promised Pentos to the Tattered Prince. But second, why does Selmy get to decide who's part of Dany's council anyway? Dany in her final ADWD chapter embraced Jorah, not Barristan. Dany may have a difficult time accepting Tyrion at first but he has a hell of a lot of information with which he can prove himself useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything is pointing toward Dany's invading coalition being tremendously unpopular -- Dothraki, ironborn, and a noseless kinslaying kingslaying dwarf. She had a chance for the Dornish road and she let it slip through her fingers. Aegon will conquer the South in TWOW and stability will start to return, until Dany and her invaders show up to screw everything up again.

Which will really, really, really piss off Jon Snow the protector of the realms of the men. Or so I hope :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Euron is with the Iron Fleet. He is going to sacrifice Vic to claim the horn. Vic will die without ever meeting Tyrion, Jorah, or Barristan. The ironborn will defeat the Yunkish fleet and Euron will claim a dragon with the horn. Thus, contra Quentyn, Dany will return to meet a dashing, smart, extremely powerful ironborn conqueror who's tamed a dragon. Everything is pointing toward Dany's invading coalition being tremendously unpopular -- Dothraki, ironborn, and a noseless kinslaying kingslaying dwarf. She had a chance for the Dornish road and she let it slip through her fingers. Aegon will conquer the South in TWOW and stability will start to return, until Dany and her invaders show up to screw everything up again. (This is foreshadowed when Tyrion plays cyvasse with Aegon and tells him that above all, he must reach Westeros before Cersei loses power -- "But do not wait too long, my prince. The moment will not last. The tide that lifts you now will soon recede. Be certain you reach Westeros before my sister falls and someone more competent takes her place.” Aegon will succeed in this and be the more competent person. Dany will arrive too late and will have lost the savior mantle.)

This sounds about right... unless Westeros is in the midst of being overrun by The Others.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that even without The Others, there's not like to be much stability Aegon can conceivably put in place. Assuming for a minute he pretty much consolidates the Stormlands, it's clear they've lost of a lot of their manpower already. So he's got the Stormlands and it does seem feasible that he'd manage to ally with Dorne (though not certain given the Arianne preview chapter.

However, the Reach seems to be the most powerful house left, and by marriage and practical control, have both the crown and pretty solid control of what's left of the Lannister and Riverlands domains as well.

And you've got the Eryie under LF's control. I have no real sense of this, but I'll chalk it up to "possible alliance". Lots of unbloodied solidiers, and a hot girl to marry off.

The North... well, I don't see Stannis bending the knee, but I don't see him garnering enough support to move south and do much damage. In the event Stannis loses to Bolton, I don't see the latter wanting to risk open battle.

The Ironmen that seem to be around Westeros are busy making enemies of the Reach, who are also... Aegon's most likely enemy. So that's likely to be a bit more complex than we think. Danny will be invading with one set of Ironmen while Aegon could very well be allying with another set of them to wipe out the Tyrells.

So the best case scenario, for Aegon, I guess, is that LF throws in with him, as well as Dorne and the Westeros Ironborn remnant, and he manages to defeat the Reach. Still, that seems like the sort of thing that would take quite a bit of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of the four troublemakers-Vic,Barristan,Jorah and Daario i think Vic is the best fighter.But Dany wont approve of any man taking her dragon by magical means.Also she wont impose the ironborn way of living on Westeros-she may have embraced her dragon side but thats just not her and Westeros wold never stand for it.The ironborn way will never rule and has to be coming to an end.So while Vic might beat anyone sent against him,Dany and his own ideology will be his main stopping point.

I always thought Jorah was very badly used by Dany

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why wasn't this chapter included in the end of Dance? It would have set up all the elements nicely as soon coming together, instead of leaving us in a fog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything is pointing toward Dany's invading coalition being tremendously unpopular -- Dothraki, ironborn, and a noseless kinslaying kingslaying dwarf. She had a chance for the Dornish road and she let it slip through her fingers. Aegon will conquer the South in TWOW and stability will start to return, until Dany and her invaders show up to screw everything up again.

(This is foreshadowed when Tyrion plays cyvasse with Aegon and tells him that above all, he must reach Westeros before Cersei loses power -- "But do not wait too long, my prince. The moment will not last. The tide that lifts you now will soon recede. Be certain you reach Westeros before my sister falls and someone more competent takes her place.” Aegon will succeed in this and be the more competent person. Dany will arrive too late and will have lost the savior mantle.)

Agree with this, very much. Whatever Tyrion's real motive was for telling Aegon to go to Westeros, this scenario looks likely to play out. Dany's going to come thinking she's the savior and people will see her as just another false claimant out to steal the throne from her nephew. Hilarity ensues (and by hilarity I mean Dance of the Dragons 2).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Euron is with the Iron Fleet. He is going to sacrifice Vic to claim the horn. Vic will die without ever meeting Tyrion, Jorah, or Barristan. The ironborn will defeat the Yunkish fleet and Euron will claim a dragon with the horn. Thus, contra Quentyn, Dany will return to meet a dashing, smart, extremely powerful ironborn conqueror who's tamed a dragon.

Wait, so this is Euron arriving and not Victarion? Do we know for a fact that Euron isn't still raiding the Reach?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree with this, very much. Whatever Tyrion's real motive was for telling Aegon to go to Westeros, this scenario looks likely to play out. Dany's going to come thinking she's the savior and people will see her as just another false claimant out to steal the throne from her nephew. Hilarity ensues (and by hilarity I mean Dance of the Dragons 2).

Two things. First, I think you guys are forgetting about the dragons. I think people will see the dragons and either (1) try to kill them or (2) kneel. Also. what do you mean by 'false claimant'? do you just mean that "Aegon" (assuming he is the real Aegon which I highly doubt) has a better claim or that the people of Westeros will think Dany is a fake Targaryen. If it is the latter, I don't think that's true whatsoever because rumors of Dany's survival and dragons have been reaching Westeros for a while. There will obviously be another 'Dance of the Dragons' but I don't think Dany will be as wildly unpopular as people think. Those dragons have done nothing but make people bend to Dany's wishes since they hatched and I don't think the Westerosi, given their history with dragons, would be any different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×