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Ran

[TWoW Spoilers] Tyrion I

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From Marwyn via AFFC, we learn that it was the Archmaesters of the Citadel that killed all of the Targaryen dragons through poison. They also confined Maester Aemon to the wall instead of raising him to Archmaester. Being an Archmaester himself, I think Marwyn knows the mind of his brothers. The Citadel is building a world based on science and technology and not myth and superstition. The Targs and their dragons had to go. We can only guess at just how much the grey sheep have been shaping events in Westeros.

Exactly! Furthermore, IMO, I think the fact that Jaqen is at the Citadel is extremely important in regards to the true motives of the FM and if they have a specific target in mind at the Citadel. Sam also being there should be interesting from his POV.

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I agree... this is a more likely fate for Jorah, but it does beg the question: How did Jeor even know his son was still alive... and what makes him think that some chubby steward from the NW would ever come across Jorah and be able to ask him to take the black...? What made him think that Sam would even make it back to the Wall? or was that promise the thing that saved Sam and Gilly? Causing Coldhands and Bloodraven to intervene to honour an honourable dying man's wish...

Good point. Ser Jorah definitely would redeem himself by taking the black, but we'll have to wait and see.

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Tyrion is not a Targaryen bastard. See Stallion that Mounts Texas post for details. It, however, would make sense for Cersei and Jaime. Targaryen features have to be recessive, so they wouldn't have to show up, it would explain Cersei's madness, the incest, be a bitter twist to have Jaime be kinslayer as well, Tyrion being Tywin's only true son, they could have been conceived during the first night that Aerys took.

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Tyrion is not a Targaryen bastard. See Stallion that Mounts Texas post for details. It, however, would make sense for Cersei and Jaime. Targaryen features have to be recessive, so they wouldn't have to show up, it would explain Cersei's madness, the incest, be a bitter twist to have Jaime be kinslayer as well, Tyrion being Tywin's only true son, they could have been conceived during the first night that Aerys took.

1. I have to say that I mislike this theory even worse than the Tyrion theory. I reject it for many of the same reasons as Tyrion. The only way for this to be true is that Aerys and Johanna were in love and I just don't see that at all. By all indications Johanna and Tywin enjoyed a happy marriage. And I would expect some Targaryen trait to emerge from such a pairing, either in the eyes or the hair.

2. I don't think Cersei is necessarily mad. She is vain, greedy, self-centered, and rash. But, her mind is very much her own and at work.

3. Incest is not a Targaryen trait per se. It is/was a practice the family kept from Valyria. There have been a number of Targs who have married mates outside of the family. Aerys likely would have married Johanna is he could have. He was forced to marry his sister.

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1. I have to say that I mislike this theory even worse than the Tyrion theory. I reject it for many of the same reasons as Tyrion. The only way for this to be true is that Aerys and Johanna were in love and I just don't see that at all. By all indications Johanna and Tywin enjoyed a happy marriage. And I would expect some Targaryen trait to emerge from such a pairing, either in the eyes or the hair.

2. I don't think Cersei is necessarily mad. She is vain, greedy, self-centered, and rash. But, her mind is very much her own and at work.

3. Incest is not a Targaryen trait per se. It is/was a practice the family kept from Valyria. There have been a number of Targs who have married mates outside of the family. Aerys likely would have married Johanna is he could have. He was forced to marry his sister.

1. Or the first night taken by Aerys.

2. The procession of her actions has been on a decline since the beginning.

3. It might not be a trait, but it certainly could be in bloodlines.

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1. Or the first night taken by Aerys.

2. The procession of her actions has been on a decline since the beginning.

3. It might not be a trait, but it certainly could be in bloodlines.

1. The first night was abolished by Queen Alysane way back during the reign of of Jaehaerys I. The Boltons and according the Roose Bolton, the Umbers very quietly continue the practice. If Ned knew he would have certainly put them to death.

2. But her mind has been her own. The decisions she has made have been so stupid that they border on insanity, but her mind is still her mind as twisted as it is.

3. I don't think attraction to close family member is in one's blood. Attraction to the opposite sex is in our genetic makeup. Not having intimate relations with family is something that is taught.

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1. The first night was abolished by Queen Alysane way back during the reign of of Jaehaerys I. The Boltons and according the Roose Bolton, the Umbers very quietly continue the practice. If Ned knew he would have certainly put them to death.

2. But her mind has been her own. The decisions she has made have been so stupid that they border on insanity, but her mind is still her mind as twisted as it is.

3. I don't think attraction to close family member is in one's blood. Attraction to the opposite sex is in our genetic makeup. Not having intimate relations with family is something that is taught.

1. Read Barristan's chapter when he talks to Dany about who her parents would have wed for love. He states that Aerys took "certain liberties" with Tywin's wife over their wedding night.

2. Insanity is a tough thing to accurately judge and describe. It depends entirely on whether you view it on making irrational decisions or whether you see things, or have paranoia or such. Aerys was considered mad for burning Rickard and Brandon, but that decision would have been his own.

3. If warg powers and insanity can be passed down, it isn't much of a stretch to assume that incest, even subconsciously, could be passed down.

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1. Read Barristan's chapter when he talks to Dany about who her parents would have wed for love. He states that Aerys took "certain liberties" with Tywin's wife over their wedding night.

2. Insanity is a tough thing to accurately judge and describe. It depends entirely on whether you view it on making irrational decisions or whether you see things, or have paranoia or such. Aerys was considered mad for burning Rickard and Brandon, but that decision would have been his own.

3. If warg powers and insanity can be passed down, it isn't much of a stretch to assume that incest, even subconsciously, could be passed down.

1 - I don't think Aerys gone much far from a hand here and there

2 - there's a difference between being mildly paranoid like Cersei and stopping for once to cut hair, beard and nails because you don't trust anyone.

3 - Yes it is. It's quite known that the habit of marrying cousins and other parents in middle ages' nobilities caused hereditary madness, and hereditary special powers are quite common in fantasy lore.

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1 - I don't think Aerys gone much far from a hand here and there

2 - there's a difference between being mildly paranoid like Cersei and stopping for once to cut hair, beard and nails because you don't trust anyone.

3 - Yes it is. It's quite known that the habit of marrying cousins and other parents in middle ages' nobilities caused hereditary madness, and hereditary special powers are quite common in fantasy lore.

Agreed...could not have answered better.

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so it looks like tyrion and victarion will first meet :drunk:

That should make for some good writing

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Good point. Ser Jorah definitely would redeem himself by taking the black, but we'll have to wait and see.

I think he will be the 1,000th commander.

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1. The first night was abolished by Queen Alysane way back during the reign of of Jaehaerys I. The Boltons and according the Roose Bolton, the Umbers very quietly continue the practice. If Ned knew he would have certainly put them to death.

2. But her mind has been her own. The decisions she has made have been so stupid that they border on insanity, but her mind is still her mind as twisted as it is.

3. I don't think attraction to close family member is in one's blood. Attraction to the opposite sex is in our genetic makeup. Not having intimate relations with family is something that is taught.

As for #3, not having intimate relations comes from necessity. in hunter-gatherer days, it was found that relatives having sex was bad for survival of species. it's certainly taught, but it's more intraspecies innate knowledge, almost. wisdom that is borne out of hundreds of thousands of years of surviving.

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1 - I don't think Aerys gone much far from a hand here and there

2 - there's a difference between being mildly paranoid like Cersei and stopping for once to cut hair, beard and nails because you don't trust anyone.

3 - Yes it is. It's quite known that the habit of marrying cousins and other parents in middle ages' nobilities caused hereditary madness, and hereditary special powers are quite common in fantasy lore.

1. I think one as Aerys would have gone farther, especially when he knew he could.

2. Don't forget, Cersei just recently burned the tower of the hand and found the burning as beautiful as Joffrey when he was born. She's getting super crazy.

3. Why is the ability to warg being passed down easier to believe than a subconscious thought process from the choices of ancestors?

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1. I think one as Aerys would have gone farther, especially when he knew he could.

2. Don't forget, Cersei just recently burned the tower of the hand and found the burning as beautiful as Joffrey when he was born. She's getting super crazy.

3. Why is the ability to warg being passed down easier to believe than a subconscious thought process from the choices of ancestors?

Tywin and Jonanna were cousins, that's enough inbreeding right there to explain any hereditary madness. Joffrey had so little genetic variety one could almost excuse him being a psychopath.....almost.

If Aerys really had boinked his Mrs. on his wedding night, knowing the character of Tywin I very much doubt he'd have served as Hand, mores the point he'd have made it his life mission to destroy the whole Targ line. Besides at the very least he'd have insisted that Johanna douse herself with moon tea. Nope not buying it.

However there is a theory that Tywin himself is a lost Targ bastard, so if you're looking for a reason to make Tyrion the third head of the dragon then that's your best shot.

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Tywin and Jonanna were cousins, that's enough inbreeding right there to explain any hereditary madness. Joffrey had so little genetic variety one could almost excuse him being a psychopath.....almost.

If Aerys really had boinked his Mrs. on his wedding night, knowing the character of Tywin I very much doubt he'd have served as Hand, mores the point he'd have made it his life mission to destroy the whole Targ line. Besides at the very least he'd have insisted that Johanna douse herself with moon tea. Nope not buying it.

However there is a theory that Tywin himself is a lost Targ bastard, so if you're looking for a reason to make Tyrion the third head of the dragon then that's your best shot.

I don't think it's imbreeding that causes madness, I think it's just the Targaryen blood. Also, Tywin would have had to consummate the marriage himself as well as Aerys boinking his wife. He likely did not want to be a kinslayer (no matter how small of a way) or Joanna convinced him not to kill the babe. Also, Tywin would have worked as hand for about 5 years before marrying Joanna (he ruled it for 20, left it when Jaime was 15) and there was no telling what threats/ promises/ plots Tywin or Aerys could have done in the aftermath of this. I'm not looking for Tyrion to be a Targ. I'm simply placing my thoughts to a theory based on gatherings of evidence from the books.

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I don't think it's imbreeding that causes madness, I think it's just the Targaryen blood. Also, Tywin would have had to consummate the marriage himself as well as Aerys boinking his wife. He likely did not want to be a kinslayer (no matter how small of a way) or Joanna convinced him not to kill the babe. Also, Tywin would have worked as hand for about 5 years before marrying Joanna (he ruled it for 20, left it when Jaime was 15) and there was no telling what threats/ promises/ plots Tywin or Aerys could have done in the aftermath of this. I'm not looking for Tyrion to be a Targ. I'm simply placing my thoughts to a theory based on gatherings of evidence from the books.

Inbreeding causing all sorts of issues in real life, no reason to suspect it doesn't apply in asoiaf.

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I don't think it's imbreeding that causes madness, I think it's just the Targaryen blood. Also, Tywin would have had to consummate the marriage himself as well as Aerys boinking his wife. He likely did not want to be a kinslayer (no matter how small of a way) or Joanna convinced him not to kill the babe. Also, Tywin would have worked as hand for about 5 years before marrying Joanna (he ruled it for 20, left it when Jaime was 15) and there was no telling what threats/ promises/ plots Tywin or Aerys could have done in the aftermath of this. I'm not looking for Tyrion to be a Targ. I'm simply placing my thoughts to a theory based on gatherings of evidence from the books.

1. What evidence? Tywin was born in 244 AL. He became hand at the age of 20 in 264 AL. Jaime and Cersei were born in 266 AL. Tywin had been hand 2 years before the birth of his children.

2. During the Tywin's and Johanna's wedding, Aerys made jokes about the first night being abolished and took liberties (excess groping) during the disrobing part of he ceremony, in which all men at the party took part. After the disrobing, the bride and groom are carried off together to their marriage bed.

I'm pretty sure Tywn would not have a threesome with Aerys and his wife. This theory is utter nonsense.

3. I'm pretty sure its the inbreeding that has plagued the Targs. Every human has errors in some of their genes. The gene may be less functional than it should be or completely broken. However, we inherit two copies of every gene, one from each parent (except that boys only receive one X-chromosome and one Y and so only have one copy of the genes on each). So it rarely matters if some of your genes are broken, so long as the other copies are healthy and functional.

In the case of inbreeding the parents are genetically very similar and therefore carry the same genetics, but without knowing it since they both have a healthy copy. If their inbred child inherits two broken copies of the same gene, that child may be born with serious defects depending on how crucial the gene is. Genetic defects will accumulate with every generation of inbreeding. Some of the historical royal families developed nasty family diseases through generations of inter-cousin marriages that were meant to keep bloodlines pure.

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The excesses at the bedding were probably just a prelude to what may have happened later. We don't have enough information, but Aerys would have had plenty more opportunity to coerce Joanna into sex. Tywin and Jo had a very close relationship, which implies to me that she would have been at court more often than not, while Kevan would have been castellan at Casterly Rock.

Aerys could have come to her at any point and said have sex with me or I'll send Tywin off on a suicide mission, or frame him for treason, or whatever, and have him put to the sword.

Among lots of other evidence there are two instances I'd like to point out. In Storm when Jaime refuses Oathkeeper and the Rock the first thing that Tywin has to say is "you are no son of mine." He says the same thing to Tyrion as his last words.

To me this indicates that there is some secret part of Tywin that has feared this all along...that his children are not his. There is a good indication that Tywin went whoring, but never had any bastards...

Also, I picture Tywin as a man thoroughly concerned about his image. Even if he secretly feared his children were fathered by the Mad King he would never broadcast it or let it lead to rebellion because he, and all the Lannisters, would become a laughing stock for the entire continent. If the Mad King gave you horns, who's going to side with you when you call your banners in rebellion?

When men laugh at you in their cups, they will never follow your orders.

I think that Tywin was always secretly afraid that his children were not his. This explains Joanna's tears in Jaime's weirwood vision.

For the record, I think the twins are Aerys' but I think that Tyrion is all Lannister.

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The excesses at the bedding were probably just a prelude to what may have happened later. We don't have enough information, but Aerys would have had plenty more opportunity to coerce Joanna into sex. Tywin and Jo had a very close relationship, which implies to me that she would have been at court more often than not, while Kevan would have been castellan at Casterly Rock.

Aerys could have come to her at any point and said have sex with me or I'll send Tywin off on a suicide mission, or frame him for treason, or whatever, and have him put to the sword.

Among lots of other evidence there are two instances I'd like to point out. In Storm when Jaime refuses Oathkeeper and the Rock the first thing that Tywin has to say is "you are no son of mine." He says the same thing to Tyrion as his last words.

To me this indicates that there is some secret part of Tywin that has feared this all along...that his children are not his. There is a good indication that Tywin went whoring, but never had any bastards...

Also, I picture Tywin as a man thoroughly concerned about his image. Even if he secretly feared his children were fathered by the Mad King he would never broadcast it or let it lead to rebellion because he, and all the Lannisters, would become a laughing stock for the entire continent. If the Mad King gave you horns, who's going to side with you when you call your banners in rebellion?

When men laugh at you in their cups, they will never follow your orders.

I think that Tywin was always secretly afraid that his children were not his. This explains Joanna's tears in Jaime's weirwood vision.

For the record, I think the twins are Aerys' but I think that Tyrion is all Lannister.

1. During the reign of Aerys and Tywin as his Hand, the Seven Kingdoms was in a golden age of peace and prosperity. In AFFC Cersei told us that her grandfather (Lord Tytos) died when she was one year old. Tywin was off serving in KL as Hand when it happened. She says that Lord Tywin was often away in KL when she and Jaime were young. This implies that Tywin took leave and returned home when work allowed. If anything, Lady Johana ruled the Rock after Lord Tytos' death, much like Ned left Cat to rule and advise Rob in his stead.

2. Lady Johana was said by all to have ruled Tywin, even though he ruled the Seven Kingdoms. Any woman that can advise Tywin and keep his confidence is a strong woman indeed. Sorry, not buying your theory of Aerys coercing her into sex.

3. I'm sorry, but this is the weakest evidence that any theorist has presented. A parent telling a child "Your are no son/daughter" of mine is a very common thing to say when said child has not lived up to the hopes and expectations that his or her parent had for them.

For the record, Tywin never told Jaime he was not his son. Jaime simply told Tywin that he was Lord Commander of the KG and that all he meant to be. Tywin simply said "Very well sir, go and do your duty." You need to reread that part.

He says that phrase to Tyrion after he shoots him with an arrow...no big surprise there. In AGOT, Tyrion asks Tywin why he is being sent to rule in KL instead of Ser Kevan, Ser Addam Marbrand, or a some bigger man. Tywin says (wait for it) "Because you are my son." Bottom line: These are terms of either endearment or antipathy. Nothing more, nothing less.

3. Aerys found his way through all of the Lannister guards and servants at Casterly Rock to have some meeting with Joahanna? The king of the Realm, who is attended night and day by servants and the King's Guard manages to avoid all eyes and rape the wife the most powerful lord in Westeros? The most recognizable man in the kingdoms goes unnoticed or unannounced throughout Casterly Rock? The King's Guard who are with the king night and day, and keep all of his secrets no nothing of this. The KG keeps the king's secrets, but not from each other. Makes no sense.

4. Lady Johanna fails to drink moon tea after some encounter with Aerys? Cersei and Jaime come out with not traces of Targaryen features. No strands of silver or platinum hair? No purple, lilac, or indigo eyes? Nothing? The only Targaryen to have no features whatsoever is Jon (thats a story for another day).

5. Tywin loves Jaime and Cersei as much as he hates Tyrion. He would go to hell and back for his first borns.

6. The only person Aerys has raped, is his wife. Aerys was not mad beyond reason until after Duskendale (276 AL). Aerys was never the same after this because he believed Tywin left him in the dungeon to rot. He would not leave the Red Keep again until Harrenhal.

Sorry, not buying it. Never have and never will. All of the so called evidence is nothing more than weak speculation and wishful thinking. These theories are creating something from nothing in the books. Too many what ifs, too many could have happens, and too many we don't knows because the book never tells us. How about using what the book tells us and putting an end to a really bad theory. The time line does not work. The logistics do not work.We already have our secret Targaryen theme covered.

For the record, Tywin's kids are his and his alone.

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1. What evidence? Tywin was born in 244 AL. He became hand at the age of 20 in 264 AL. Jaime and Cersei were born in 266 AL. Tywin had been hand 2 years before the birth of his children.

2. During the Tywin's and Johanna's wedding, Aerys made jokes about the first night being abolished and took liberties (excess groping) during the disrobing part of he ceremony, in which all men at the party took part. After the disrobing, the bride and groom are carried off together to their marriage bed.

I'm pretty sure Tywn would not have a threesome with Aerys and his wife. This theory is utter nonsense.

3. I'm pretty sure its the inbreeding that has plagued the Targs. Every human has errors in some of their genes. The gene may be less functional than it should be or completely broken. However, we inherit two copies of every gene, one from each parent (except that boys only receive one X-chromosome and one Y and so only have one copy of the genes on each). So it rarely matters if some of your genes are broken, so long as the other copies are healthy and functional.

In the case of inbreeding the parents are genetically very similar and therefore carry the same genetics, but without knowing it since they both have a healthy copy. If their inbred child inherits two broken copies of the same gene, that child may be born with serious defects depending on how crucial the gene is. Genetic defects will accumulate with every generation of inbreeding. Some of the historical royal families developed nasty family diseases through generations of inter-cousin marriages that were meant to keep bloodlines pure.

1. ASOS in Tyrion's chapter when Kevan visits him to convince him to take the black. "He carried that burden for 20 long years."

2. We do not know whether this is the case or not. What we assume Aerys did or did not do is irrelevant unless it fits the character better. A man seeing himself as practically a dragon would likely not have the ability to restrain himself, or simply the will to do it.

3. We all know Aerys and Tywin. If Aerys snuck into Joanna's room or ordered to meet him somewhere else, do you think any trace would have reached them? Either of those people would have ripped the tongues out of the person who said that. Also, that was about 20 years before AGOT, so it would kind of be old news then. I don't think Aerys did touch Joanna after the wedding, but it's plausible.

4. Tywin saw his children as a dragon queen and lord of Casterly Rock. He did not care for Cersei, he was completely unsympathetic when forcing her to marry someone else. I would go as far as to say he loved Jaime until he decided to stay in the Kingsguard. Not much more, especially for Cersei.

5. Due to genetics, blond hair and green eyes are recessive, meaning they would not show up if there was a dominant trait (Baratheon hair in the case of Cersei's kids) and black and brown hair is dominant. Jon shows no Targaryen traits due to Lyanna having dominant traits. This means that silver hair and violet eyes have to be recessive. In that case, the hair and eye color could turn out either way. It is not unlikely, especially for reasons of plot, that two genetically similar children have two traits belonging to the mother.

6. If Aerys raped Joanna on the wedding night, Tywin would have still had to consummate it. Joanna or Tywin might not have wanted to abort the baby, especially when it might have still have been Tywin's.

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