Women, Men, SFF part deux

[thistlepong]

And how Harold Bloom determined and defined it before it was written, yah?

[Nukelavee]

Thistle - I'm an artist. I reject the role of a critic as essential.

Back it up? I am the source, silly - because I don't support them. 25 years listening to, and reading them, and knowing some of teh artists they claim to be explaining, and knowing how wrong they are...

Let me put it this way - why on Earth do you think most critics have any real insights to offer into the mind of the creator? Where does their "backing up" come from?

Other critics. Who have an investment in ensuring their role in art.

Kalbear - you've simplified things too much, dude. It isn't just a chain of command. It also making all men in a squad work together, it's teh concept of taking men who would never interact as civilians, and making them willing to die for one another.

Also, it ignores teh fact that women establish hierarchies of their own.

[Galactus]

Let me put it this way - why on Earth do you think most critics have any real insights to offer into the mind of the creator? Where does their "backing up" come from?

They don't. That's where the entire "Death of the author" comes from. They can analyze the text. (and if they're not inclined to that particular theory, biographical facts, other statements by the author, etc.) to form a picture.

What the author thinks is after all, pretty much irrelevant. It's only what the author says and does that matter.

[SkynJay]

Just a quick tangent. Remember how this all started several threads ago? With the Abercrombie thing and if most people read an abuse as a tragedy or a "she had it coming" type thing? Well, the comments in this thread made me realize I give fellow readers way too much credit.

[thistlepong]

What really vexes me about this form of criticism is that it's basically pissing to stake out your spot. People want their personal reading of something to be the accepted one, if enough people support this, it becomes the right interpretation. And then, the critic gets to dictate what is written. If a critic has a big enough name, artists want his support, and cater to his views.

Wherever you decide to rant about critics, please consider backing this up with... anything.

Back it up? I am the source, silly - because I don't support them. 25 years listening to, and reading them, and knowing some of teh artists they claim to be explaining, and knowing how wrong they are...

Your response is either shockingly ignorant or I was obtusely unclear.

Provide any example of a critic dictating what is created.

[Shryke]

Just a quick tangent. Remember how this all started several threads ago? With the Abercrombie thing and if most people read an abuse as a tragedy or a "she had it coming" type thing? Well, the comments in this thread made me realize I give fellow readers way too much credit.

The ASOIAF discussion section of this forum long ago destroyed any vestigial faith I had left in humanity.

I just hear things about the people there from other posters in the Miscellaneous section of this forum who venture into those crazed depths. They tell tales like ancient sailors venturing into far away lands, of bigotry kings feasting on the flesh of lesser posters and mighty arguments of misogyny raised in tribute to imaginary endorsements within the holy text.

There should just be a big sign over that section of the forum:

Here There Be Dragons Morons

[Grack21]

Just a quick tangent. Remember how this all started several threads ago? With the Abercrombie thing and if most people read an abuse as a tragedy or a "she had it coming" type thing? Well, the comments in this thread made me realize I give fellow readers way too much credit.

Venture thee not into other sections of the forum.

Edit: Holy Shit.

Magneto was Right.

[Lyanna Stark]

Just a quick tangent. Remember how this all started several threads ago? With the Abercrombie thing and if most people read an abuse as a tragedy or a "she had it coming" type thing? Well, the comments in this thread made me realize I give fellow readers way too much credit.

I had to close that thread since I just could not bear to read it. It made me feel physically ill.

[Nukelavee]

Thistlepong - go read up on Clement Greenberg.

Modern art is full of instances like that. Modern art is totally shaped by the critic.

Denying it shows a remarkable degree of ignorance of how critics shape art.

[Chaldanya]

Why do you link these things so I'll read them? Do you hate me that much?

N

[thistlepong]

I ain't denyin' anything, son. Careful where you're casting aspersions. I really shouldn't have to go read up on anything if your point is relevant. Just point out someone whose craft this fella dictated and support it.

And then consider demonstrating the corellary in this discussion. To whit, an author so overwhelmed by thuggish feminists that s/he cannot but express hirself in their terms.

And Grack, your Magneto line has made my day four times in two days. Thanks.

[SkynJay]

Why do you link these things so I'll read them? Do you hate me that much?

N

It was only a few troll comments and one page when I posted it. Wow, it got out of hand a bit didn't it?

[Lyanna Stark]

It was only a few troll comments and one page when I posted it. Wow, it got out of hand a bit didn't it?

Yeah it did and fast. Ah well, seems at least the forces for reason are going fairly strong in it.

I guess it falls under actual real life example of the gender specific slagging off of women.

[Sci-2]

My "favorite" part is when someone quotes Handmaiden's Tale to defend Tyrion's treatment of Shae...talk about lack of reading comprehension.

[Prince Alexander]

Meh, I try not to be so quick to judge. Many of the posters are very clearly young people, they'll change up once they figure out more things about the real world.

[polishgenius]

I was just going to say that the aSoIaF discussion boards on here make me cry, but Shryke's summation has far more poetry to it.

That said, there did seem to be a couple of brave souls fighting the rising tide of insanity before SkynJay's intervention brought the cavalry thudding in. We should organise rescue parties to bring these people to the land of the living. >_>

As for the discussion about critics shaping art: true, it does happen. But it's surely much less of a thing in mass market commercial enterprises like books than it in, say, a painting. Hence Twilight.

Also, I don't agree that a critics are an unnecessary institution in art. Sure, some are vapid and disconnected from anything resembling reality but then so are some artists. The absence of a healthy dialogue with the critical community can lead to a lack of self-awareness. I mean, look at George Lucas.

[The WaterDancer Knight]

Meh, I try not to be so quick to judge. Many of the posters are very clearly young people, they'll change up once they figure out more things about the real world.

Youth is not, and should never be, an excuse for stupidity. And no they won't change. Georges Brassens said the truth about it : "Stupid young ones, stupid old ones, times changes nothing about it. When you're stupid you're stupid". (Poor translation from french : jeunes cons de la dernère averse, vieux cons des neiges d'antan, le temps ne fait rien à l'affaire. Quand on est con on est con.)

[polishgenius]

Youth is not, and should never be, an excuse for stupidity. And no they won't change. Georges Brassens said the truth about it : "Stupid young ones, stupid old ones, times changes nothing about it. When you're stupid you're stupid". (Poor translation from french : jeunes cons de la dernère averse, vieux cons des neiges d'antan, le temps ne fait rien à l'affaire. Quand on est con on est con.)

That's not really fair. The issue here isn't really intelligence but wisdom, and that certainly does change over time.

Also: youth may not be an excuse but it is very often a reason. Young people, even very clever ones, do stupid things and hold stupid views.

[Prince Alexander]

Youth is not, and should never be, an excuse for stupidity. And no they won't change. Georges Brassens said the truth about it : "Stupid young ones, stupid old ones, times changes nothing about it. When you're stupid you're stupid". (Poor translation from french : jeunes cons de la dernère averse, vieux cons des neiges d'antan, le temps ne fait rien à l'affaire. Quand on est con on est con.)

Some may not change, but you can't speak in absolutes. Also, whoever said anything about stupid. You can be a misogynistic, racist, homophobic genius. As PG above pointed out, wisdom =/= intelligence.

[Lyanna Stark]

My "favorite" part is when someone quotes Handmaiden's Tale to defend Tyrion's treatment of Shae...talk about lack of reading comprehension.

Yep, I facepalmed in RL when I read that...

@ Prince Alexander,

While some are surely young, I think a certain amount of politeness should not be age specific. Maybe it's because I am ancient, but I can never remember when it was acceptable to spam anything like that.

EDIT: I think to clarify, I do think the general climate has become harsher. It is ok nowadays to say things which would not have been acceptable 10-15 years ago due to the anonymity of the internet, most likely. The tone has become harsher, for sure, in all sorts of places.