Smh Robb

[Steelers7127]

Im about 250 pages in, and Robb is quickly losing his grasp on the northern kingdom. He already lost the north to the Greyjoys, and then married the girl from the Lannister area effectively losing the Frey alliance, and then Karstark and his men afterward. His youth is quickly coming out, and he needs to forge an alliance or develop a very smart strategy quickly. Makes me wonder how different the war maybe if Ned was leading?

[smo]

I agree that the war would be very different if Ned was leading. Robb lacks the experience Ned had, but then I suppose at one point Ned was inexperienced as well.

[iheartseverus]

What does 'Smh' in your thread title mean?

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

What does 'Smh' in your thread title mean?

"Shaking my head"

Ned seemed more like a follower than a leader. Not sure how his skills as a commander would have matched up against his skills as a warrior. I doubt he'd have made the same mistakes as his son though.

[Steelers7127]

"Shaking my head"

Ned seemed more like a follower than a leader. Not sure how his skills as a commander would have matched up against his skills as a warrior. I doubt he'd have made the same mistakes as his son though.

Yeah man, thats one thing i wish would could have known how Ned and Robert fought and commanded respectively, not just glimpses from the past... We never got to see them in action, except on the show they had Ned fighting Jaime instead of being trampled by his horse, which was cool

[Sylvan Fox]

Robb does well in battle, but it seems like he (with help from Catelyn) made a string of terrible decisions in this book.

[Crown]

There wouldn't be a war if Ned had been able to lead it.

[Errant Bard]

he (with help from Catelyn) made a string of terrible decisions in this book.

Against Catelyn's advice every time, in this book.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

There wouldn't be a war if Ned had been able to lead it.

Quite. I suppose this thread is more a question of how Ned would have handled in a war against Tywin.

Probably better than his son but Tywin was something of a tactical genius

.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It's OK, once he wins back the Freys through the marriage with Edmure he'll clean up the Ironborn

[SerMattOfTennessee]

Full of the fire of youth, but unfortunately empty of the wisdom of age.

[Robb Stark The Young Wolf]

Well if somehow Eddard was on Robb place then I think he would have more success than his son. Eddard would realise that he needs Arryns to win the war and he would get their support on some way. Then the whole war would be different. Robb really did the best he could for his age and Lannisters are a very powerfull house. When Robb came from The North, Riverlands were already smashed. That is way Jaime Lannister wasnt careful. Lannisters have bigger army, more resources and of course gold. Tywin was a political genius and a solid military commander. With his political desicions he was always giving an edge in war. Ned was also inexperienced just like Robb when Roberts Rebellion started but in that war he was in a better situation than Robb.

[Xtopher]

Robb Stark is green.

[The Roaring Bear]

I'm absolutely astonished at how everyone chalks it up to Tywin being a genius and Robb being green, expecting Ned to have done better.

When Ned went to war, he went with Robert and Jon Arryn. That's three capable leaders, all Wardens of their respective lands. None of their territories had been destroyed by war before the war started, and all three of them were close friends/practically family.

What did Robb have?

He had himself and the North, a couple good leaders, but none were from any of the great houses of Westeros.

He adopted a Riverlands that was war torn and in shambles with no true leader (Hoster Tully dying and Edmure clearly not the most capable leader) and that was all.

Robb himself was brilliant (look at his plan for when the LAnnisters were heading back east but Edmure decided to ruin seeking his own glory, also see his plan to retake Moat Cailin).

On the battlefield Robb was unstoppable, the problem was he was forced to put too much faith in his allies who aside from the Blackfish, were nowhere near as capable as himself (whereas Ned had Robert, Stannis, Jon Arryn, etc) and who were far too self motivated (Theon, Edmure, Bolton) so they were either willing to backstab him, or to make stupid decisions looking for their own glory.

In the end Tywin did not outwit Robb Stark, but cheated. He did something that was so unspeakable no one would have even thought it was an option. Ned would have fallen victim to the same thing, and though Ned may not have insulted the Freys, who is to say that the late Lord Frey (called this not because he was dead, but because he would always take his time, more loyal to ensuring his own success than to his Lord) would not have still been bought by Tywin and done the exact same thing?

Robb was a great leader of men. Ned, though a leader, was born to be a follower (second son), leading his men in pursuit of others ambitions. To compare the two is unfair.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'm absolutely astonished at how everyone chalks it up to Tywin being a genius and Robb being green, expecting Ned to have done better.

When Ned went to war, he went with Robert and Jon Arryn. That's three capable leaders, all Wardens of their respective lands. None of their territories had been destroyed by war before the war started, and all three of them were close friends/practically family.

What did Robb have?

He had himself and the North, a couple good leaders, but none were from any of the great houses of Westeros.

He adopted a Riverlands that was war torn and in shambles with no true leader (Hoster Tully dying and Edmure clearly not the most capable leader) and that was all.

Robb himself was brilliant (look at his plan for when the LAnnisters were heading back east but Edmure decided to ruin seeking his own glory, also see his plan to retake Moat Cailin).

On the battlefield Robb was unstoppable, the problem was he was forced to put too much faith in his allies who aside from the Blackfish, were nowhere near as capable as himself (whereas Ned had Robert, Stannis, Jon Arryn, etc) and who were far too self motivated (Theon, Edmure, Bolton) so they were either willing to backstab him, or to make stupid decisions looking for their own glory.

In the end Tywin did not outwit Robb Stark, but cheated. He did something that was so unspeakable no one would have even thought it was an option. Ned would have fallen victim to the same thing, and though Ned may not have insulted the Freys, who is to say that the late Lord Frey (called this not because he was dead, but because he would always take his time, more loyal to ensuring his own success than to his Lord) would not have still been bought by Tywin and done the exact same thing?

Robb was a great leader of men. Ned, though a leader, was born to be a follower (second son), leading his men in pursuit of others ambitions. To compare the two is unfair.

Ah, so it's everyone else's fault that Robb married the first wench he screwed, from a house that gained him nothing? It's everyone else's fault he released his only leverage over the Greyjoys? It's Edmure's fault he's not a mind reader and Robb didn't tell him the full plan?

Robb was a good battle leader, and a good man but that does not make a good king. A good king doesn't put his silly ideals of honor above the well-being of his kingdom and his men. And BTW, losers always accuse the other side of cheating. Only a fool expects his enemies to "play fair" in a war

[The Roaring Bear]

My point was not that Robb was perfect. My point was that he did not have the quality of men around him that Ned did, and so a hypothetical comparison is unfair.

Also, in Westeros, murdering people protected under guest right is cheating plain and simple.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Ah, so it's everyone else's fault that Robb married the first wench he screwed, from a house that gained him nothing? It's everyone else's fault he released his only leverage over the Greyjoys? It's Edmure's fault he's not a mind reader and Robb didn't tell him the full plan?

Robb was a good battle leader, and a good man but that does not make a good king. A good king doesn't put his silly ideals of honor above the well-being of his kingdom and his men. And BTW, losers always accuse the other side of cheating. Only a fool expects his enemies to "play fair" in a war

It is clear that Robb was a military genious and he defeated Tywin everytime he faced him. But he was too young/green to grasp the diplomatic aspects of being a king, and he is responsible for the key decisions that he alone made leading to the RW.

Marrying the Lannister girl, not listening to Cats council, letting Theon go. I don't agree that he was responsible for Edmures mistake, but that topic is for another thread.

But what happened under guest rights was "cheating" if that is the right word. As far as the customs of Westeros goes, this was beyond the pale, on par with being a kinslayer or maybe even worse. Robb can't be blamed for the RW, but he also had no clue he could be betrayed by his own bannerman and he seems to have had no one around him that could have forseen the possibility either. I believe Ned would have at least been aware of this possibility, but we will never know. Cat did sense it at the RW, but it was far to late.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It is clear that Robb was a military genious and he defeated Tywin everytime he faced him. But he was too young/green to grasp the diplomatic aspects of being a king, and he is responsible for the key decisions that he alone made leading to the RW.

Marrying the Lannister girl, not listening to Cats council, letting Theon go. I don't agree that he was responsible for Edmures mistake, but that topic is for another thread.

But what happened under guest rights was "cheating" if that is the right word. As far as the customs of Westeros goes, this was beyond the pale, on par with being a kinslayer or maybe even worse. Robb can't be blamed for the RW, but he also had no clue he could be betrayed by his own bannerman and he seems to have had no one around him that could have forseen the possibility either. I believe Ned would have at least been aware of this possibility, but we will never know. Cat did sense it at the RW, but it was far to late.

Robb never faced Tywin directly.

Not sure the bolded part is true, but if it is that just makes Robb seem dumber. After the Karstark affair the King in the North shouldn't have had any illusions about his bannermen. Half of them (the Riverlords) had never even swore fealty to House Stark before the WO5K, he had insulted one of them by breaking a marriage pact, Roose Bolton's cunning and ruthlessness were well known, and his childhood buddy had just murdered (so he thought) his little brothers.

Do you think Tywin ever put "trust" in anyone outside his family?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Also, in Westeros, murdering people protected under guest right is cheating plain and simple.

So?

[Drowsey Dragon]

Robb never faced Tywin directly.

Not sure the bolded part is true, but if it is that just makes Robb seem dumber. After the Karstark affair the King in the North shouldn't have had any illusions about his bannermen. Half of them (the Riverlords) had never even swore fealty to House Stark before the WO5K, he had insulted one of them by breaking a marriage pact, Roose Bolton's cunning and ruthlessness were well known, and his childhood buddy had just murdered (so he thought) his little brothers.

Do you think Tywin ever put "trust" in anyone outside his family?

Robb never faced Tywin directly

Technically yes, but he certainly outwitted him every time and took the Kinglsayer. He even pulled him out of Harenthal to ride West, just as Robb planned, but it got screwed up due to Edmure.

After the Karstark affair the King in the North shouldn't have had any illusions about his bannermen. Half of them (the Riverlords)

He had House Tully, which controlled the Riverlands, so I don't see your point here. I also don't think he lost his bannerman over the Karstark affair and would have if he did not execute him.

Roose Bolton's cunning and ruthlessness were well known

I agree and this is a failing of Robbs and where we agree. He lacked wisdom and forsight off of the field of battle. I believe it would have come with age, he was just 15 years old. We also do not know what he learned from Ned about the Boltons, the history and especially Roose. He relates to him like all of his other Bannerman.

Do you think Tywin ever put "trust" in anyone outside his family?

I don' think Tywin trusted anyone in or outside his family, but he was also much older and experienced. It is not a fair comparison, since Tywin is almost three time Robbs age. He also has strong council, especially his uncle Kevan and family members to use, like the imp and cercei and the king. Robb has no one outside of Cat he can really trust or rely on.