Smh Robb

[The Roaring Bear]

So?

So, as I stated in my original post, Ned would have lost in a similar fashion since Tywin was willing to use unthinkable/unspeakable tactics.

[Rockroi]

Should... should we be discussing this subject in this manner given that the OP has not read THAT far into SoS? I'm just saying that some of the talk- regardless of how vague it may seem - is treading close to giving away plot points. I am not a moderator, but I would encourage people to temper their passion with usual practice and understand that some people (hint: the original poster) have not read what you have read.

IN trying to keep this as vague as possible- and trying really hard to to reveal anything that was not discussed 250+ pages into SoS:

I am unclear how the war would have been different had Ned lead. For starters Ned was always a leader with other leaders- Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon were his brothers in arms against Arys; Ned never had to have that much responsibility alone. Also, Robb's mistakes - going strictly from what has already been revealed- seem remarkably similar to Ned's mistakes in GoT. Just like Ned, Robb is ignoring previous advice given by allies or potential allies. With Ned it was ignoring Littlefinger and Renly in the hours within Robert's death; with Robb it has been in potentially alienating the Freys, something that Cat specifically warned against.

Just like Ned, Robb seems to think his enemies will come right at him on the fuield of battle or with some sense of honor. It never even occuured to Ned that Cersei would do what she did; it never occurred to Robb that there would be trouble with the Karstarks that boiled over.

I also do not think Ned was as immaginative on or off the field of battle as Robb has been. Robb's moves at Oxcross and at splitting his army prior to the Twins was brilliant. Ned's tachtics have been amorphous and it appears that most of the war was won by Robert to one degree or the other.

Finally, Ned never faced anything like Tywin. And I think that the fact that "Tywin cheated" shows a remarkable disconnect to what it takes to win.

As Tyrion put it, "I believe they call that war."

[Steelers7127]

Should... should we be discussing this subject in this manner given that the OP has not read THAT far into SoS? I'm just saying that some of the talk- regardless of how vague it may seem - is treading close to giving away plot points. I am not a moderator, but I would encourage people to temper their passion with usual practice and understand that some people (hint: the original poster) have not read what you have read.

IN trying to keep this as vague as possible- and trying really hard to to reveal anything that was not discussed 250+ pages into SoS:

I am unclear how the war would have been different had Ned lead. For starters Ned was always a leader with other leaders- Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon were his brothers in arms against Arys; Ned never had to have that much responsibility alone. Also, Robb's mistakes - going strictly from what has already been revealed- seem remarkably similar to Ned's mistakes in GoT. Just like Ned, Robb is ignoring previous advice given by allies or potential allies. With Ned it was ignoring Littlefinger and Renly in the hours within Robert's death; with Robb it has been in potentially alienating the Freys, something that Cat specifically warned against.

Just like Ned, Robb seems to think his enemies will come right at him on the fuield of battle or with some sense of honor. It never even occuured to Ned that Cersei would do what she did; it never occurred to Robb that there would be trouble with the Karstarks that boiled over.

I also do not think Ned was as immaginative on or off the field of battle as Robb has been. Robb's moves at Oxcross and at splitting his army prior to the Twins was brilliant. Ned's tachtics have been amorphous and it appears that most of the war was won by Robert to one degree or the other.

Finally, Ned never faced anything like Tywin. And I think that the fact that "Tywin cheated" shows a remarkable disconnect to what it takes to win.

As Tyrion put it, "I believe they call that war."

im 600 pages in now if that will help what you want to say easier

[Rockroi]

600 pages in ... so you got through Edmure's wedding reception? Yes or no will do.

[Steelers7127]

600 pages in ... so you got through Edmure's wedding reception? Yes or no will do.

Nah not quite, they are on the march toward it though in last Catelyn chapter

[Rockroi]

Okay, its a few chapters after that where what I am talking about will be in a better light.

So, just repost when you get like 4 chapters after the wedding reception scene (the one where Robb talks about having to "go back North" and retake Winterfell") and things get a little clearer.

[LuisDantas]

The way I see it, Robb has been almost supernaturally competent.

Spoilers for later chapters of ASOS and the later books marked below.

He was defeated only due to a impressive set of circunstances, few of which he could control in any way. While he did commit serious mistakes, it seems to me that his fate was largely outside of his hands.

The decisive factors have been largely fairly direct results of Westeros' remarkably fragile political institutions: the renewed Ironborn uprising,

Roose Bolton's betrayal

, the stubborness and lack of principles of Stannis' bid for power and

Tywin's complete lack of morals or restraints.

Robb even showed considerable foresight, refusing bad counsel from Catelyn when she insisted in offering peace to the Lannisters without appropriate conditions.

He did err in sending Theon to his father, but it is unclear how much of a difference that made. Balon would have rebelled anyway,

and Ramsay would probably be arrested and killed, becoming the pretext for Roose's betrayal. Winterfell, of course, would survive.

He dealt well with Rickard Karstark, and misjudged

Roose Bolton

by trusting him. But from available evidence he can't be blamed for that either.

He technically betrayed the Freys and earned their desertion by marrying Jeyne, sure. But I am not sure it is at all reasonable to expect him to renounce his honor and happiness on behalf of a House that never even attempted to be truly loyal to him.

Failing to share his plans with Edmure, however, is a true mistake that people often unduly forgive Robb for.

And it is also apparent now that he misjudged Robett Glover just as badly as he did Roose Bolton, although in the opposite direction.

Ultimately, Robb was doomed, and was competent enough to stall his end in a most impressive way, even contributing greatly to the fall of Tywin Lannister. It is not his fault that he did not survive the shortcomings of (mainly) Stannis, Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, although it IS largely bis indirect fault that Winterfell was lost.

[Drowsey Dragon]

The way I see it, Robb has been almost supernaturally competent.

Spoilers for later chapters of ASOS and the later books marked below.

He was defeated only due to a impressive set of circunstances, few of which he could control in any way. While he did commit serious mistakes, it seems to me that his fate was largely outside of his hands.

The decisive factors have been largely fairly direct results of Westeros' remarkably fragile political institutions: the renewed Ironborn uprising,

Roose Bolton's betrayal

, the stubborness and lack of principles of Stannis' bid for power and

Tywin's complete lack of morals or restraints.

Robb even showed considerable foresight, refusing bad counsel from Catelyn when she insisted in offering peace to the Lannisters without appropriate conditions.

He did err in sending Theon to his father, but it is unclear how much of a difference that made. Balon would have rebelled anyway,

and Ramsay would probably be arrested and killed, becoming the pretext for Roose's betrayal. Winterfell, of course, would survive.

He dealt well with Rickard Karstark, and misjudged

Roose Bolton

by trusting him. But from available evidence he can't be blamed for that either.

He technically betrayed the Freys and earned their desertion by marrying Jeyne, sure. But I am not sure it is at all reasonable to expect him to renounce his honor and happiness on behalf of a House that never even attempted to be truly loyal to him.

Failing to share his plans with Edmure, however, is a true mistake that people often unduly forgive Robb for.

And it is also apparent now that he misjudged Robett Glover just as badly as he did Roose Bolton, although in the opposite direction.

Ultimately, Robb was doomed, and was competent enough to stall his end in a most impressive way, even contributing greatly to the fall of Tywin Lannister. It is not his fault that he did not survive the shortcomings of (mainly) Stannis, Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, although it IS largely bis indirect fault that Winterfell was lost.

it seems to me that his fate was largely outside of his hands.

Robbs fate was sealed when he betrayed the Freys. He vowed to marry Freys daughter to make the critical crossing. Due to this it is not only reasonable to expect him to renounce his honor and happiness on behalf of House Frey and I can't see how you can argue otherwise, unless the matter of honor is not relevant, but clearly with Robb and the Starks it is.

Regarding Edmure, he gave clear orders to him, go read that chapter again, Robb was not at fault.

I agree Balon would have rebelled regardless of Theon, but releasing him against Cats advise and all common sense, led to the events at Winterfell. This never happens if he keeps Theon with him. This was a critical mistake you are not giving enough importance. I also believe this is what clinched the decision of Roose to do what he does later on at the RW. I don't believe he would have used something like the bastards death as a pretex for treason or war. A liege lord has the right to kill the bastard for his crimes.

[LuisDantas]

Honor debts are usually thought to be payable. It would seem to me that it is all the more true when Robb had not even "betrayed" any particular person.

There was a price to be paid, but it was not meant to spell doom for anyone.

As for Edmure, I still blame Robb (and the Blackfish). It is foolish to depend on one's generals not to have ideas and initiative of their own. Edmure is being blamed on a technicality.

I basically agree about Theon and Winterfell, although I'm not sure how influential exactly Winterfell's fall was. It certainly hurt Robb's campaign considerably, in any case.

I'm confused with this talk about Roose and a bastard's death. I have no idea of what you mean there.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I basically agree about Theon and Winterfell, although I'm not sure how influential exactly Winterfell's fall was. It certainly hurt Robb's campaign considerably, in any case.

I'm confused with this talk about Roose and a bastard's death. I have no idea of what you mean there.

ASOS SPOILERS

I agree with Drowsey that the sacking of Winterfell, along with the Battle of the Blackwater, were what sealed the deal for Roose. He sends Glover and Tallhart to Duskendale after this, IIRC

Roose's main motive for the RW seems to be not so much fear of the Lannisters as it is ambition. He wants House Bolton to rule the North. But for that to happen, not only Robb but also Bran and Rickon have to die. Taking out Robb at the RW won't make Roose Lord Paramount of the North if Robb still has male heirs in Winterfell. So the two boys had to be "killed" but in a way that didn't put the blame on House Bolton. Theon and Ramsay took care of that, and the rest is history.

And I disagree with you that Roose would have been motivated for vengeance after Ramsay's death. I think his letter to Catelyn in ACOK, after Reek was executed, was sincere ("I am well rid of him," etc.)

[Rockroi]

I just want to say that in order to have this debate you have to pre-suppose a lot of material, much of it spoiler-rific. I am very pleased to wade into this debate after the OP has reached a point that he feels comfortable in discussing Robb's accumen.

[Steelers7127]

I just want to say that in order to have this debate you have to pre-suppose a lot of material, much of it spoiler-rific. I am very pleased to wade into this debate after the OP has reached a point that he feels comfortable in discussing Robb's accumen.

Were good man, past the wedding and all that awfulness.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Were good man, past the wedding and all that awfulness.

Well? Give us your thoughts.

[Steelers7127]

Well, I hope every single frey in the book dies, except maybe Robb's old squire, and Bolton needs to be dead to. Hopefully Stannis or someone comes along, I just have the feeling (or hope) this is where he trys to get back in the action. It was well done by Walder i must say, but it was terribly wrong, not the correct price for a broken vow. I dont think the Hound cut Arya's head off, probably used it sideways or something and knocked her out, I hope, like her a lot. Im guessing Greatjohn and some of the bannerman are alive, so whats comes of them? Do they blindly join Roose, or does someone lead the good northerners?

[Rockroi]

Robb Stark was doomed because of two people: Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark.

The way I see it, Robb has been almost supernaturally competent.

On the field of battle, Robb was supernaturally competent; off the field of battle he was supernaturally incompetent.

He was defeated only due to a impressive set of circumstances, few of which he could control in any way. While he did commit serious mistakes, it seems to me that his fate was largely outside of his hands.

Not at all. Robb’s mistakes are what set his destiny and not the other way around. Robb could have told Edmure a better order and Tywin would have been trapped. Regardless, Robb was never under any obligation to marry Jayne Westerling and thereby completely ruin his most important geographic alliance. Robb had been warned many times that Wlder Frey was a prickly, suspicious and cruel lord who had no time for honor and was very prideful. Robb ignored all of that. Robb did not think about the men and women who were fighting with him and for him when he sacrificed them all for the honor of Jayne Westerling, a daughter of a House of Lannister. That was a horrible, horrible move.

What did he really think Frey was going to do? Robb literally, flung aside the very first alliance he made since the Rebellion started. In doing so he not only humiliated the Freys but he made it clear to all that his word could not be trusted. All of that was all 100% within his control. There is nothing supernatural about stepping into a hornet’s nest when there is a huge sign that says “WARNING!!!! HORNET’S NEST!!!”

The decisive factors have been largely fairly direct results of Westeros' remarkably fragile political institutions

But that was something effecting everyone. And wasn’t Robb a HUGE beneficiary of the realm’s weak political institutions? Didn’t he become Lord of WF because of that?

Roose Bolton's betrayal

Well, most lords betrayed somebody. Stannis was betrayed by Renly; Balon Greyjoy was betrayed by his own brother; and the Lanisters still had a wedding of their own. Bolton’s betrayal was as much a result of outside factors as it was Robb’s inability to keep menacing lords loyal (Karstark, Bolton etc).

Tywin's complete lack of morals or restraints.

To quote Tyrion, “I believe they call that war.” And is anything Tywin did in the war any more or less moral than Catlyn kidnapping Tyrion and sending him… to the Vale? Really?

Robb even showed considerable foresight, refusing bad counsel from Catelyn when she insisted in offering peace to the Lannisters without appropriate conditions.

Robb showed great foresight in also listening to Cat on several occasions and the Blackfish on others. And then he showed extraordinary negligence and recklessness by ignoring her counsel and pissing off Lord Frey when he was specifically told how prickly and merciless he could be.

Failing to share his plans with Edmure, however, is a true mistake that people often unduly forgive Robb for.

Totally agree.

Ultimately, Robb was doomed, and was competent enough to stall his end in a most impressive way, even contributing greatly to the fall of Tywin Lannister.

He contributed to nothing of the sort. Robb was another dead outlaw; he had nothing to do with Tywin's fall.

it seems to me that his fate was largely outside of his hands.

and

Robbs fate was sealed when he betrayed the Freys. He vowed to marry Freys daughter to make the critical crossing. Due to this it is not only reasonable to expect him to renounce his honor and happiness on behalf of House Frey and I can't see how you can argue otherwise, unless the matter of honor is not relevant, but clearly with Robb and the Starks it is.

I don’t know if you meant the first to be a quote of what LuisDantas said or if you said both, but the two quotes are utterly incompatible. You can either believe Robb’s fate was outside his hands OR you can believe his fate was sealed when he betrayed Frey. But you cannot believe both at the same time.

I think its very clear what happened to Robb: he could destroy his enemies on the battlefield but had no ability to deal with his allies off it. He screwed up with Edmure (Hold Riverrun… kinda) which kept him from winning the war; he screwed up with Frey which made him lose the war. Everything else is just show. Those two things doomed him, his cause and his people.

Fail.

[Steelers7127]

.

I think its very clear what happened to Robb: he could destroy his enemies on the battlefield but had no ability to deal with his allies off it. He screwed up with Edmure (Hold Riverrun… kinda) which kept him from winning the war; he screwed up with Frey which made him lose the war. Everything else is just show. Those two things doomed him, his cause and his people.

Fail.

And thats exactly where i think Ned would have made all the difference in the war. In no circumstances would he have lost the Frey's, I would venture to say even in his younger years. Most likely would have kept his friends close and enemy's closer, he probably knew Roose better, and would have sent a more loyal bannerman like Glover or Mallister to take charge of that part of the army, and Theon would not have went to the iron islands. Eventhough they were already clearing going to war, a honest bannerman such as Mallister to the iron islands, saw them preparing for war, turned the boat around and had part of the army waiting to meet them at the beach.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Robb Stark was doomed because of two people: Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark.

On the field of battle, Robb was supernaturally competent; off the field of battle he was supernaturally incompetent.

Not at all. Robb’s mistakes are what set his destiny and not the other way around. Robb could have told Edmure a better order and Tywin would have been trapped. Regardless, Robb was never under any obligation to marry Jayne Westerling and thereby completely ruin his most important geographic alliance. Robb had been warned many times that Wlder Frey was a prickly, suspicious and cruel lord who had no time for honor and was very prideful. Robb ignored all of that. Robb did not think about the men and women who were fighting with him and for him when he sacrificed them all for the honor of Jayne Westerling, a daughter of a House of Lannister. That was a horrible, horrible move.

What did he really think Frey was going to do? Robb literally, flung aside the very first alliance he made since the Rebellion started. In doing so he not only humiliated the Freys but he made it clear to all that his word could not be trusted. All of that was all 100% within his control. There is nothing supernatural about stepping into a hornet’s nest when there is a huge sign that says “WARNING!!!! HORNET’S NEST!!!”

But that was something effecting everyone. And wasn’t Robb a HUGE beneficiary of the realm’s weak political institutions? Didn’t he become Lord of WF because of that?

Well, most lords betrayed somebody. Stannis was betrayed by Renly; Balon Greyjoy was betrayed by his own brother; and the Lanisters still had a wedding of their own. Bolton’s betrayal was as much a result of outside factors as it was Robb’s inability to keep menacing lords loyal (Karstark, Bolton etc).

To quote Tyrion, “I believe they call that war.” And is anything Tywin did in the war any more or less moral than Catlyn kidnapping Tyrion and sending him… to the Vale? Really?

Robb showed great foresight in also listening to Cat on several occasions and the Blackfish on others. And then he showed extraordinary negligence and recklessness by ignoring her counsel and pissing off Lord Frey when he was specifically told how prickly and merciless he could be.

Totally agree.

He contributed to nothing of the sort. Robb was another dead outlaw; he had nothing to do with Tywin's fall.

and

I don’t know if you meant the first to be a quote of what LuisDantas said or if you said both, but the two quotes are utterly incompatible. You can either believe Robb’s fate was outside his hands OR you can believe his fate was sealed when he betrayed Frey. But you cannot believe both at the same time.

I think its very clear what happened to Robb: he could destroy his enemies on the battlefield but had no ability to deal with his allies off it. He screwed up with Edmure (Hold Riverrun… kinda) which kept him from winning the war; he screwed up with Frey which made him lose the war. Everything else is just show. Those two things doomed him, his cause and his people.

Fail.

Luis made the first quote - it seems to me that his fate was largely outside of his hands.

and I countered it with the second quote - Robbs fate was sealed when he betrayed the Freys. He vowed to marry Freys daughter to make the critical crossing. Due to this it is not only reasonable to expect him to renounce his honor and happiness on behalf of House Frey and I can't see how you can argue otherwise, unless the matter of honor is not relevant, but clearly with Robb and the Starks it is.

You agree with Louis when he says -Failing to share his plans with Edmure, however, is a true mistake that people often unduly forgive Robb for.

But he did not need to share his full plans with him. The fewer people that know the totality of a plan the better. He was not in Robbs inner circle and as his liege lord, he gave him a specific and direct order, which edmure disregarded. It was not possible for Robb to have known beforehand that Edmure would not follow his orders so he had to fill him in on his plan to lure Tywin West. I am sure he had reasons not to go into this kind of detail with Edmure, so he gave him a direct order instead.

[Rockroi]

You agree with Louis when he says -Failing to share his plans with Edmure, however, is a true mistake that people often unduly forgive Robb for.

But he did not need to share his full plans with him. The fewer people that know the totality of a plan the better. He was not in Robbs inner circle and as his liege lord, he gave him a specific and direct order, which edmure disregarded. It was not possible for Robb to have known beforehand that Edmure would not follow his orders so he had to fill him in on his plan to lure Tywin West. I am sure he had reasons not to go into this kind of detail with Edmure, so he gave him a direct order instead.

Let me begin by saying that, historically, when subordinates are given orders/objectives from superiors it is up to the subordinate to find a way to make the objective a reality. Hence, they have to be given leeway to be creative enough to interpret the order for maximum effectiveness and flexibility.

With that thought as a backdrop here is my explination as to why Robb Stark is 100% (not 90%, not 95%, but completely and totally) at fault for the "Hold Riverrun" Order:

This order is as simple as it gets. It’s a very terse directive. By leaving this description so vague its open to wide interpretation. Edmure- as the chief subordinate of Robb –has a wide latitude in how to interpret the order. We know of absolutely no descriptions of the order. Robb NEVER stated (nor ever implied until after-the-fact) any improvements to the order such as “Just Hold the castle itself” or “Tywin must pass unmolested” etc. Robb’s order was viable when Robb left for the West; outdated when it became an issue, and Robb NEVER bothered to update Edmure. This is a critical and horrible mistake; it put Robb’s entire war effort into turmoil, and ultimately lost him his best chance to win the war.

Maybe the part of the order lost most in the shuffle was the term “guard his rear.” I am unsure how Edmure could legitimately “guard (Robb’s) rear” if he allowed Tywin to pass unmolested into the West and sandwich Robb between The Rock and Tywin’s advancing host. Here is where I think Robb’s argument is most untenable: what does “Guard his rear” mean if it DOES NOT MEAN hold Tywin back? It makes the whole order meaningless.

Worse, some Robb apologists claim that the order ONLY allowed Edmure to hold Riverrun itself from a siege. That is preposterous for the simple reason that did Edmure REALLY need to be reminded of this fact? That Edmure had to make sure that his homeland, the seat of his family’s power, the Bedrock of the Riverrlands should not fall? I mean, what was Robb thinking iof that was the actual order? That if he did not REMIND Edmure not to allow Riverrun to fall, when Robb returned he could find Edmure et al sitting outside of Riverrun, the golden lion fluttering inside Riverrun and Edmure saying, “Well, Robb, you didn’t ORDER me to “Hold Riverrun” so I just let it fall?” That’s absurd.

The entire idea behind “Hold Riverrun” being just about Riverrun is absurd because if that were the case, the order does not even need to be given.

Edmure simply followed the order. Edmure DID hold Riverrun; Riverrun stood. Edmure merely interpreted the order with the information available to him: by holding the fjords and the bridges, he kept Tywin at bay. That was the order and Edmure carried it out. Robb failed in clarifying his order EITHER at the time he left Riverrun or at the time he realized he had such a grand opportunity. Robb failed to notify his most important political and military ally of the situation: that Tywin now HAD to come West and Edmure must allow it. This was a monumental failure on Robb’s part.

The blame, by contrast, cannot fall on Edmure: Edmure did EXACTLY what he was told; he “held Riverrun” by containing Tywin. Edmure’s plan was never discussed in a vacuum: Edmure ran his idea’s by many in the military establishment at Riverrun.

(Edmure): “The plan’s a good one,” he concluded. “Lord Tytos says so, and Lord Jonos as well. When did Blackwood and Bracken agree about anything that was not certain, I ask you?”

Martin, George R.R. (2003). A Game of Thrones/A Clash of Kings (Kindle Locations 22110-22112). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

In other words, even KNOWING what the order said, neither Blackwood nor Braken thinks to say “But the order never SAID that.” And why? Because experienced battle commanders know that their orders to subordinates have to be carried out by the subordinates using their own abilities, resources and imaginations. To foolishly assume that your subordinates will robotically carry out the orders is absurd.

And everyone knew it.

The pathetic scene where Edmure and Robb tag-team on Edmure for Edmure's success is basically two men engaging in group-think/echo-chamber (ie: two people are convinced that they are correct and reinforce it by encouraging the other). Robb is correct because he wins the argument? That's just the writer glossing over the hero's monumental mistake. Merely because Edmure lost the argument does not mean he was wrong; just that the writer did not want Edmure to become, suddenly, bright and articulate.

Edmure Tully never claimed to be a mind-reader; pity Robb thought he was. Robb screwed up his own plan because he failed to tell his most important ally what his plan actually was. Instead, he gives Edmure an order that is open to wide interpretation.

That HAS to be Robb’s failure, not Edmure’s.

[Ramsay Gimp]

^Rockroi, I agree with you regarding the fault for Riverrun. But there is a theory out there that Robb and the BF were extra hard on Edmure because they wanted to pressure him into marrying a Frey. They knew they needed to make amends to that house, and Edmure was their best bet

[Rockroi]

But there is a theory out there that Robb and the BF were extra hard on Edmure because they wanted to pressure him into marrying a Frey. They knew they needed to make amends to that house, and Edmure was their best bet

Yeah, but that does not excuse the mistake in and of itself. Sure, they may know that its not Edmure's fault, but that does not somehow make their actions in relaying a poor order any better.