[Book Spoilers] Ep 202 Discussion

[redriver]

Yoren- "I sharpened my knife before breakfast.I could shave a spider's arse if I wanted to".Another genius line.

Arya looks Japanese anime with those big eyes.

Alton Lannister looks very like Gendry.Related in real life?

[Songlian]

Haven't read all 18 pages of this thread, but are we sure Rakharo is dead? There was something about that scene, like not quite showing his head out of that bag, that made me thinking they might be trying to pull something up.

Dunno. Not in denial or anything, just seems odd to kill a character that lives all the way to ADWD.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Songlian

[boojam]

I know some people have complained about the Stannis and Melisandre scene, but I think if you pay close attention to what happens in that scene, it plays out exactly as it must have happened:

• Stannis says that he can't beat 110,000 men with 5,000 men and that he needs Renly's army to win (true)
  
• Melisandre replies "I have seen the path to victory in the flames" (true), "but first you must give yourself to the Lord of Light."
  
• Stannis thinks she's talking just about his rather...unenthusiastic conversion.
  
• Melisandre says "you must give all of yourself." (meaning his shadow)
  
• And then she only brings up the son (which is true, she's going to give him a shadowbaby) to get him over the hump of betraying his wife.
  

To me, this perfectly fits the books - Melisandre is just vague enough that Stannis doesn't have to think that he's killing his brother with sorcery, and she couches the conception first and foremost as a requirement of victory based in religion.

That is excellent.

I did not catch that until I viewed the scene the second time.

Well one is going to have to be a very sharp non-reader to catch the drift of what is going on.

D&D's writing seems to have even gone over the heads of readers!

And people here complain about the lack of subtlety in the teleplay.

Even me. Gonna have to pay closer attention!

Edited April 10, 2012 by boojam

[redriver]

Haven't read all 18 pages of this thread, but are we sure Rakharo is dead? There was something about that scene, like not quite showing his head out of that bag, that made me thinking they might be trying to pull something up.

Dunno. Not in denial or anything, just seems odd to kill a character that lives all the way to ADWD.

Yes.It states in the English translation of the Dothraki that "Rakharo will ride with his ancestors tonight".

[TheRiderThatMounts]

I did not really like the changes but I'm really curious to see how they will use them. Maybe all these changes will add something nice.

I love GRRM's characters. I was actually really dissapointed when I saw lord Tywin and he was not bald with sideburns. Not to get me wrong, Charles Dance is a great actor and he plays a great Tywin but still, the no-hair-huge-sideburns look was something that defined lord Tywin. It said all or nothing and it helped the character a lot.

This is why I'm not ok with the way they portrayed Stannis. He would have never jumped Melisandre's bones like that. The man hates whores and the idea of sex. To him it's just duty.

The way they showed it, it was like he was seduced by the promise of a son. And Stannis is not easily seduced.

Also, did they cut his daughter from the show?

I was also sad to see them kill of Rakharo. I understand that the actor left the show to play in World War Z. I don't understand why they had to kill the character since the GRRM clarly says in the books that Rakharo grows into a man, taller, more muscular. They could have used some other actor.

[boojam]

But how on earth can a woman in her 30s take the place of a girl that is 14 and looks even younger??

Will all the book readers get over the 'age thing'!

That ship has sailed!

The show is bound by labor laws.... and even an adult TV HBO can't violate various laws about child actors, especially their presentation in a visual medium.

(What George used as a template will , and cannot, fly in contemporary visual drama, in fact I don't think it can ever be done , even at some future date.)

[Balefont]

Stannis is one of the major characters in the whole story and particularly in Clash and I just feel they totally missed the boat with the TV version. I'm curious to see how it gets "fixed" but so far the character is complexity flat and non-threatening.

[hoelk]

Will all the book readers get over the 'age thing'!

That ship has sailed!

The show is bound by labor laws.... and even an adult TV HBO can't violate various laws about child actors, especially their presentation in a visual medium.

(What George used as a template will , and cannot, fly in contemporary visual drama, in fact I don't think it can ever be done , even at some future date.)

Also George said at some point (to lazy to search out the quote) that he should have made the children older in the first place (after he realised the 4 years gap wouldn't work out)

[boojam]

although I understand the argument of pronunciation, I am not conviced aboud the idea. Asha and Osha are never on the screen on the same time, they are in different parts of the Westeros, they have different storylines, they even don't look alike... Is it so unusual, that two people on the huge continent have quite similar names?

It's all goofy. Most of the viewers , right now, speak North American English (my nod to Canadians)... and lord viewers in Western Europe and Eastern Europe, how are they going get confused?

One would think UK viewers are sophisticated enough to figure it out, the Irish and Scottish would get confused?

I still want to hear George asked the question... he approve? Maybe he so happy with getting 99.99 percent of it right he looks the other way?

[boojam]

Also George said at some point (to lazy to search out the quote) that he should have made the children older in the first place (after he realised the 4 years gap wouldn't work out)

You know if this show continues, here we still sit on pins and needles!, the four year gap will take care of itself, hell it could a 6 year gap! They are not going to recast excellent actors , that would be crazy.

Not to mention fans arriving at HBO's doors with pitch forks and torches!

[redriver]

From an Irish perspective,no confusion.No real need for the name change.

Then again the name change is no big deal to me.

ETA Should have quoted-talking about the Asha/Yara thing

Edited April 10, 2012 by redriver

[boojam]

They're both women in their late twenties/early thirties, they're both dressed plainly, they both have some martial skill (Asha more than Osha). In a sea of 30+ different distinct characters, you don't think the average person might get them confused?

They're both women in their late twenties/early thirties, they're both dressed plainly, they both have some martial skill (Asha more than Osha). In a sea of 30+ different distinct characters, you don't think the average person might get them confused?

People confuse Asha with Osha!

As someone noted they never appear in the same scene together across the 5 novels, so far.

And even if they did they have a totally different visual appearance.

I don't think it's D&D , someone at HBO has the auditory discriminatory neurons of a blind cave fish.

Edited April 10, 2012 by boojam

[David Selig]

Will all the book readers get over the 'age thing'!

That ship has sailed!

The show is bound by labor laws.... and even an adult TV HBO can't violate various laws about child actors, especially their presentation in a visual medium.

(What George used as a template will , and cannot, fly in contemporary visual drama, in fact I don't think it can ever be done , even at some future date.)

That's all good, but it has nothing to do with the fact that Ros can not pass for Arya under any circustances ever. The age gap is too big, they look nothing alike, and she wouldn't have the first clue how to act like the daughter of Lord Stark. It would be a completely ridiculous plot development. Why would Roose accept her? Any girl of a close age to Arya would serve his goal way better.

[Ran]

Yeah, Ros is not taking the Jeyne role. Either they'll do something else with it or they'll just introduce Jeyne, "Oh, yeah, she was in Winterfell and was Sansa's friend and just accept she was there." George has mentioned this sort of thing before, when talking about the Sopranos and the way suddenly some lieutenant of Tony's exists on the show and is a major player even though you've never seen him or even had him mentioned before. Just have to accept it.

But yeah, Ros is definitely not going to try and be passed off as Arya,

[K-Raptor]

I liked how Melisandre whispers to Matthos that "death by fire is the purest death". Considering he dies during the Battle of the Blackwater.

The Arya storyline was great as well. Hot Pie + Lommy Greenhands so far have made a great impression on me. Jaqen was good as well. I like how they pronounce Jaqen H'gar. Much better than what I had in mind.

[Greywolf2375]

Will all the book readers get over the 'age thing'!

That ship has sailed!

The show is bound by labor laws.... and even an adult TV HBO can't violate various laws about child actors, especially their presentation in a visual medium.

(What George used as a template will , and cannot, fly in contemporary visual drama, in fact I don't think it can ever be done , even at some future date.)

Her argument has nothing to do with book age v. show age - read what she said. This was about Ros being used in place of Jeyne as fake Arya. There really isn't any argument that a 30ish buxom redhead can't replace a 14ish slim brunette and not have any question the sudden change in appearance. Your outrage about people who read though is noted.

[legba11]

At least it's not just me who cannot get on the forums most of time...

Jon's story is still going to play out similar to how it does in CoK. Ygritte is coming, The Half-Hand is a "major" new character. We see them climbing and fighting together. Sadly, I think this will get played out as a cheap cliff-hanger, where the world gets reset (to normal) quickly next week. Something like Ghost find him (and the dragonglass) and they leave Craster's without him knowing Jon survived. It won't matter on the way back as Jon isn't with them anyway.

Stannis and Mel had sex in the books. There is no doubt about that, That scene is likely how it happened. Stannis does NOT know she is hatching a demon fetus to kill Renly (and the steward of Storm's End). (There is no indication of this, he has no idea what happened to Renly).

LF's speech served two parts, once again it shows the audience what type of guy he is underneath the fancy clothes. It also serves to be putting Ros in the right place to run his moneymaker when he leaves. He knows KL is about to become real dangerous and knows he needs to get out. LF is a survivor. Jofferey/Cersei in charge would make any person nervous about their survival. Stannis or Renly are going to attack the city soon and it's currently defended by some poorly trained cops and (at that time) led by a man who would not be hard for the invaders to buy off. There's a reason he decides to continue playing The Game from outside KL for nearly the rest of the books.

[shadow of death]

With the stannis/mel sex scene. In the books it is easier to imply what is going on. Sometimes on the show they do need to hit the viewers on the head to make it more obvious. Hey and with a body like that even Stannis would give in. Stannis is obviously a major character in the books so i am holding judgement on him until he has some more screen time. In the books he kinda grows on you.

Asha was not how i pictured her. I figured she was sort of lanky and wiry but pretty in a tomboy sort of way. Her and theon actually look like siblings though.

Littlefinger is not really how he is in the books. Maybe they are protraying him like this so when it is revealed more that he is a major player people will realize how smart he is.

[Milcov]

Good:

Salladhor Saan

Balon Greyjoy

The captains daughter on Theon's ship was done well

Tyrion dismissing Slynt was brilliant

Joff killing the bastards

Gendry and Arya

Clearing up early that Craster sacrifices sons

Bad:

Out of character Stannis

Rakharo (though maybe unavoidable)

Littlefinger just being a pimp

Ros shouldn't be servicing clients if she's manager

Jon getting knocked out

[Songlian]

Yes.It states in the English translation of the Dothraki that "Rakharo will ride with his ancestors tonight".

Thank you! That's not quite what I meant, though. I know everyone thinks it's Rakharo... but based on the fact that Jorah saw what? A bit of hair and a ponytail? I just find it curious that in a show with so much gore/violence/etc, they shy from showing us his face.

Eh. I'm probably just making a big case from nothing.