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[Book Spoilers] Ep 202 Discussion

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This is purely an invention of TV, based on nothing from the books. And Stannis would have no interest in fathering a bastard, something he associated with Robert.

I think that had less to do with an heir and more to do with a sexually repressed, unattractive man with a good looking naked woman grabbing his junk.

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Just to throw my two cents in because I can... I really enjoyed the episode. I really look at the books and the tv series as two different things. I do not expect the tv series to follow the books to the letter. That would be impossible. I look forward to seeing how the story line plays out, both within the books themselves and the tv series.

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Great episode. Arya, Gendry, Grayjoys, Cersei all were great. I am ok with Littlefinger's added scenes. Seems Ros will be filling rolls of bunch of side-characters so that makes her good addition to the show (Alayaya, Chataya, i even have this wierd feeling she might be Jayne although that is a very long shot considering her and Arya's age)

I can't tell, are Lommy and Hot Pie recast or not?

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Seems Ros will be filling rolls of bunch of side-characters so that makes her good addition to the show (Alayaya, Chataya, i even have this wierd feeling she might be Jayne although that is a very long shot considering her and Arya's age)

I don't understand!! Why are so many people independently coming up with this theory? This can't happen, they are too different in age. Jeyne has been cast as well so there's no need. Why?? AAAHHHH!! *breaks down into tears*

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I really liked the episode generally, but ...

Yara. She might be able to pull off Asha from her type and her acting, but she DOES look a bit doughy and pasty faced. No ways somebody would look like this who basically spends his whole life in an open longboat on the sea. She hasn´t got the look of a warrior.

What on earth was that last Jon scene about. I have absolutely no idea where they are planning on going from there but I am already lowering my expectations.

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I don't understand!! Why are so many people independently coming up with this theory? This can't happen, they are too different in age. Jeyne has been cast as well so there's no need. Why?? AAAHHHH!! *breaks down into tears*

Well it probably won't happen, but Jayne wasn't casted. Untill they actully say characters name in episode, or character gets some defining action (like Tommen, being blond and at the same table with Lannisters) they don't count. Because they can (and will) recast them.

They also need someone who can do nude scenes (if they chose that direction, we still don't even have Ramsy so we cannot know, and what will Theon do for like 2 seasons.). There is a question how will they introduce character of Jayne (probably Littlefinger just randomly finding someone who we are told is Sansa's friend Jayne?).

Maybe they will send Jayne Westerling (Lannister?) but i don't know would I like that. Most likely, because of how D&D reacted to question -is that girl in season1 episode1 Jayne Poole-, they will just "recast" her and go that way.

They changed Asha to Yara because its close to Osha. And they will have 2 Jaynes, unless they change something again. Sansa mentioned "Jayne Poole's mother" in season 1.

Interesting question, is Ros going to have a full, new story arc now? Whose roles will she take over? What part in Littlefinger's plots will she take? I can't imagine her just earning him money.

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Asha/Yara was not what I expected BUT I got over that quickly when she was standing next to Balon - they almost look like they could be related - they seemed very in sync with each other and played the scene so well. Balon is exactly what I pictured and just nailed the role. I thought Theon was excellent in this episode. He looked like a little boy lost and looking for a place to belong.

Joff. Cersei and Tyrion always seem to get their roles spot on. Cersei and Tyrion are so great together.

Varys as always was perfect.

I don't know what they are doing to Littlefinger but I'm holding out that they will do him justice.

Still don't like the Ros scenes.

Arya and the bunch were great. Yorenade me laugh. Not sure about Biter and Rorge yet.

Ok... Big disappointment is still Stannis/Mel. I'm just not feeling it. I love Davos and Saan but I just don't enjoy watching the way Mel and Stannis are portrayed. I hope they change my opinion.

I'm not sure about Craster/Jon yet. I will wait until next episode to decide that one. My tv's for whatever reason are so dark that the last scene is almost black and I can't even really tell what's going on. But I get the idea.

Ive got my fingers crossed that Shireen, Patchface and Mormonts crow will make a future appearance.

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Well it probably won't happen, but Jayne wasn't casted. Untill they actully say characters name in episode, or character gets some defining action (like Tommen, being blond and at the same table with Lannisters) they don't count. Because they can (and will) recast them.

They also need someone who can do nude scenes (if they chose that direction, we still don't even have Ramsy so we cannot know, and what will Theon do for like 2 seasons.). There is a question how will they introduce character of Jayne (probably Littlefinger just randomly finding someone who we are told is Sansa's friend Jayne?).

Maybe they will send Jayne Westerling (Lannister?) but i don't know would I like that. Most likely, because of how D&D reacted to question -is that girl in season1 episode1 Jayne Poole-, they will just "recast" her and go that way.

They changed Asha to Yara because its close to Osha. And they will have 2 Jaynes, unless they change something again. Sansa mentioned "Jayne Poole's mother" in season 1.

Interesting question, is Ros going to have a full, new story arc now? Whose roles will she take over? What part in Littlefinger's plots will she take? I can't imagine her just earning him money.

Even if they recast Jeyne, they won't just use Ros. The age difference is just too big, it would completely take away from the show if characters somehow forgot Arya wasn't Ned's oldest child by a decade. The only benefit I can see to Jeyne being Ros is that the audience will recognise her. But seeing as Reek-rhymes-with-meek recognises her it doesn't take much more than a "that's Jeyne, Sansa's best friend from Winterfell" from him to establish who she is.

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Ros I'm starting to lose the faith. A hot ass actress but she has to justify her presence.

Yara worked well. Those who say she isn't hot enough have filled in the blanks regarding Asha. Remember she's supposed to be tomboyish and not objectively hot, but makes men wild by being confident in command and outrageous. This actress seemed to work when keeping a smirk while letting Theon finger her. The book Asha was equally as calculating. Only thing is she's a bit chubby for an Ironborn, but no big deal.

Salt wife on the boat worked as well. Incredibly pitiful creature; nailed that small role perfectly.

Cersei and Tyrion had a good back and forth. Hating the Imp for killing his mother was more Tywin's gig, but I always figured Cersei hated him for that too. Being a dwarf had to be embarrassing for the proud Lannisters, which both she and Tywin would have felt. Jaime was the one who didn't care and loved his little brother.

Stannis was okay but I'm not liking the sex scene. This show reveals too much. As a reader I liked the subtlety of guessing and piecing the evidence together. The show gives the viewer no intellectual respect. They need to be The Wire and leave more things left unsaid. Instead everything gets beaten over our heads because they're worried the (admittedly larger) audience can't keep up.

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Ros' role is to run the prostitution madam angle that happen frequently in the books. She helps flesh out Little finger and as we know Tyrion practically lives in whorehouses. So she fills a double purpose for the series.

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A good episode, but still one of my least favorites. Briefly:

Likes: Arya/Gendry, Yoren (such a badass), Pyke, Tyrion/anyone, Night's Watch scenes

Dislikes: Stannis, Brothel scene

Again, overall I still enjoyed it, but I'll focus on the one thing that bothered me. Stannis is wrong. I didn't like the physical look of him last week, although his characterization was alright. But the thing with Mel just threw his whole character off. While I certainly wouldn't be upset if they toned down the sex in the show, that's not the reason I disliked the inclusion of that scene. Nor does it have anything to do with being a book purist, which I don't think I am.

It's that it seems to establish Stannis as something far different from what he is in the books. Yes, it's hinted at in the books that he's slept with Mel (although before now, I never treated it as a certainty), but before we learn about possible infidelity, we learn about what a hard, uncompromising man he is. I feel like that stern-ness will be much harder to establish in the show now that he's an adulterer willing to cast his vows and honor aside for a naked priestess.

I think GRRM kept the Stannis/Mel thing muted for the very purpose of not casting Stannis as a giant hypocrite. We were meant to focus on his dutiful, principled leadership and reluctant religiosity; his strict adherence to rule of law. Conversely, in the show, everything he does from here on out is framed by that scene with Mel. Conceivably, it's necessary to the show's version of Stannis and I'll come to accept it. But Stannis has been, by far, the most disappointing character adaptation from the first one-plus seasons. Maybe the only one.

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I think the Stannis portrayal is pretty much accurate.The Stannis I recall in the early books is pretty much a man in thrall to Mel,and cold, and not lovable.

This is what we get.If and when Stannis turns badass,I'm sure we will get that too.

Edited by redriver

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Yes, Ghost+ Jon is like Drizzt+ Gwenyiver. Him without the giant bundle of happiness is plainly wrong. Stannis panding of lust is wrong (but then again thats how babies are born). Bronn as captain of the city watch is also wrong (but then again one more character would be confusing). The entire brothel scene is wrong (but then again a little boobie never hurt noone). Rhakaro dead is wrong (but then again he can be easily replaced, plus its one less character to remember a name for).

On the other hand, Pyke was excellent cinematography. Balon was excellent portraying. Sallador was oh so good. Tyrion+ Cersei and Tyrion+ Janos and Tyrion+ Varys (Tyrion always gets the best scenes/lines) was excellent. Arya+ Gendry and the rest of the kids was funny. Jaqar was something to look forward to.

Also the scene with Jon and Sam really helps towards building understanding of what Jon becomes.

All in all? I have to rewatch to decide whether I liked or not. I'm torn at the moment.

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Because Asha and Osha sound very much alike in the UK accents that they are using. Using standard IPA notation, we might well have these pairs:

  • Asha: U.S. /ˈæʃə/, U.K. /ˈɑːʃə/
  • Osha: U.S. /ˈɔːʃə/, U.K. /ˈɒːʃə/

Surely you can see that while the U.S. pronunciations are reasonably far apart, the U.K. pronunciations that they would necessarily be using are really rather similar. Yes, there are other U.K. possibilities, but those given above are the most likely ones, and it’s way too close — much much closer, say, than the cited counterexample of Arya and Yara.

although I understand the argument of pronunciation, I am not conviced aboud the idea. Asha and Osha are never on the screen on the same time, they are in different parts of the Westeros, they have different storylines, they even don't look alike... Is it so unusual, that two people on the huge continent have quite similar names?

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Stannis and Melisandre was cringing i prefered it in the books where its heavily implied he s laying with her. Also when she mentioned ill give you a son she was talking about shadow babies i thought Stannis didnt know about them.

The Asha theon scene was funny she isnt as pretty as i pictured her but she did look alot like Balon Greyjoy.

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Tyrion has an inner monologue/thinks , that Varys's visit was a hidden threat, a message to him, like " i know whta you're hiding and since you're hiding it, then i know it means much to you"

Don't remember that , but sure it's there.

What I remember is Varys helping Tyrion hide her and , I may have this wrong, helping in moving her to the RK.

In fact being on Tyrions side all the way.

I did notice in the dialog in the show , twice, that Shae is mention as working in the kitchen, so maybe she's not in Tyrion's quarters all the time?

Edited by boojam

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although I understand the argument of pronunciation, I am not conviced aboud the idea. Asha and Osha are never on the screen on the same time, they are in different parts of the Westeros, they have different storylines, they even don't look alike... Is it so unusual, that two people on the huge continent have quite similar names?

They're both women in their late twenties/early thirties, they're both dressed plainly, they both have some martial skill (Asha more than Osha). In a sea of 30+ different distinct characters, you don't think the average person might get them confused?

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I've got a question. The others haven't been seen for 8,000 years, yet Craster is giving his sons to them and has presumbly been doing so for years. Were they just waiting till they had enough of Craster's sons to create an army? The rangers have been visiting Craster for years but only now the others are going after everyone.

I always got the impression that its those south of the wall who had relegated the Others to mythology, and that the wildlings (I guess it's never stated explicitly) had never done that, even when the Others were dormant.

How Craster figured out what to do is left as a mystery, but it seems something a wildling could figure out.

Just why it placates the Others is never explained, seems to me sooner or later Craster's offerings are not going to make one wit's worth of differences and he and his following will be wiped out.

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