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[Book Spoilers] Ep 202 Discussion

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I liked the episode but as everybody else I noticed all the changes...

I was surprised when they killed

Rhakaro. Really? Why did they change it? I mean, he's important in the books, why would

they want to kill him now?

And I agree, the Littlefinger-Ros scene was unnecessary. It actually kinda freaked me out.

And Mel seducing Stannis? I thought it was a little weird...I just didn't realize they had that kind of a relationship from the books.

Also yes, it was kinda dumb to change Asha's name to Yara but if they think we're so stupid to think it's Osha, ok. I have friends who haven't read the books and they're watching the series, and they're really bad at remembering names, so I guess they wanted to make it easier to people who didn't read the books. The brains of us readers have more practice with the whole name-remembering thing.

:P

Edited by Nymeria101

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I liked the episode, in terms of pace it was definitely an improvement from the last one :) as always, there's good and bad points:

Good points

Arya scenes (very well done)

Pyke and the interaction between Theon and Balon.

The scene between Cersei and Tyrion talking about their mother - it was like a punch in the stomach for me and I could even predict what Tyrion was going to say before he actually said it.

Davos, Matthos and Saladoor Shan - really liked it and the guy who plays Matthos is really good, IMO. I still need more scenes to convince myself 100% that Liam is a good Davos, but I'm optimistic.

Grenn, Sam and Dolorous Edd talking about women - priceless.

Bad points

Littlefinger's creepy peep show - completely pointless to me.

Stannis and Mel sex scene - it was well done, but it's completely destroying my view of Stannis. I'll wait to see further explanations.

Edited by Little Miss Sunshine

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Littlefinger is the guy you want to think can't be all bad because he's witty and has a nice smile. This is the guy that spent his life making Lysa Tully believe he loved her and then when she was no longer useful pushed her out the moon door like another person might step on a bug. Then to make sure that a girl he grew up with and pretended to love all these years really knew how he felt told her Cat was the only one for him.

Think about that, imagine a person you've grown up with and known for all your life and then imagine murdering that person, no matter how good of a reason there could be for it, as nonchalantly as Peter killed Lysa. That boy's got a viscious streak that's he had to hide because he's small and he's weak but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Personally he strikes me as a little Mountain That Rides with brains instead of brawn.

Edited by bloodymime

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And yes, I'm astonished that anyone would complain about this because it wasn't in the book. We got to see an Other for Gods sake.

You did ? All I saw is a black shadow who could've been anyone really, and then I must have blinked because I almost missed the blue eyes. I really don't know how non-readers could have known what that was - I, at least was expecting an Other.

Agree that the Ros scene was unneeded to establish Petyr as a villain, and ridiculous to show him as a a whore-wimp : the man is a lord, and wants to become someone important, he's not micro-managing his brothels!

My other deception is the Theon-Asha scene : not enough banter, not enough sparks. I'd like to like show "Yara" like I do book's Asha, but so far, I'm not convinced.

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I have no problem with Ros, but I am a little disappointed with the crying scene simply because it portrays Littlefinger as just plain nasty. I wouldn't say book LF is nasty, he's just incredibly driven and ambitious. I can't see book LF sacrificing someone simply to make good on one investment (although he probably would for the prospect of long-term multi investments, or the potential to climb yet higher in the game of thrones).

Oh, Littlefinger is plenty nasty. The "Only Cat." line as he shoves Lysa to her death was utterly unnecessary, it only served the purpose of making her last few moments even more confusing and painful.

Edited by salt

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You did ? All I saw is a black shadow who could've been anyone really, and then I must have blinked because I almost missed the blue eyes. I really don't know how non-readers could have known what that was - I, at least was expecting an Other.

They made it pretty clear it was an Other. The blue eye and the "ice" sounds were the same as in the prologue of the very first episode.

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The blue eyes and Others (White Walkers) talking made it pretty clear who was taking the baby. You hear them talking long before you see them.

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Slightly off-topic terminology check: does 'White Walkers' encompass both Others and Wights, or does it only refer to one or the other?

I have always been confused about this, even from the books, but then there are so many details can't remember everything.

My non expert impression goes like this, there are the 'zombies', the white walkers and the Others.

Tho it's confusing what is the relation of the white walkers to the Others?

Kind of thought of them as Sauron's orcs.

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I'm in no way conservative when it comes to nudity or sex on screen, but was i the only one who felt grossed out about that whole brothel scene? Littlefinger wiping of that nasty stuff from the hookers lips, which she then uses to kiss the new customer.. eww.

Shocking your audience does not equal being edgy, or whatever they were going for there.

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I have a general rule that I follow... If I've never ever done something, and someone else has years of experience in that field, then I assume that, even if I don't understand why it's been done, that the expert has a good reason.

I mean... why do calculators have + signs on them? Who can't add numbers in their heads? Why would anyone need a device to help them add things?

Why do toothpicks have instructions on the box? Who could possibly be so dumb as to not understand what a toothpick is for?

Why did Sony invent a form of DRM that can be eliminated with a magic marker? What possible person thought that was a good idea?

The fact is, that these things were not done in a vacuum. They didn't magically appear one day. Someone made a specific effort to pursue a strategy and implement a change. Just because I don't understand the reason, doesn't mean the reason is stupid. It is far, far more likely that I'm simply ignorant of the reason. If I were to educate myself, and become an expert in the field, then, perhaps, I can render an educated assessment of the intelligence (or lack thereof) of the decision and the person making the decision.

Until that point, I continue to work under the assumption that I am lacking data. Because me assuming that someone has the 'auditory discriminatory neurons of a blind cave fish' because they made a decision that I don't understand approaches the heights of callow arrogance.

It's all moot anyway now.

Maybe, to paraphrase one of my favorite writers: H. L. Mencken

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the public."

Maybe it's that?

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What he meant by "transform" I don't even want to know. Sounded like some Qyburn shit

i actually wondered when i heard this portion of his monologue if it was a (somewhat clunky IMHO) opportunity to introduce Qyburn... in a "remember that throw-away scene in Season 2, Episode @ where we mentioned a man who paid amazing money to cut up living people? well, here he is!" way.

i liked the episode, but i also thought the sex scene in the brothel was blatantly gratuitous; i would have preferred more Jon and Sam or Arya. i loved Ghost; i think they did a good job CGI-ing him. i didn't mind the Bronn change or the fact that they're revealing Joffrey as the baby-killer (i actually think it fits well into his ordering a similar deed at Winterfell?). even the bloodrider being killed makes sense if there was an issue with the actor returning. and the Mel and Stannis episode actually made snort/chuckle, given what they did they did on Aerys' table. then, of course, i winced a bit, because they are seriously f*cking the continent of Westeros... literally and figuritively. in that way, i thought it was an effective visual. a littl eham-handed, perhaps, but it got the point across.

Theon and the Captain's daughter? eh. Theon and his sister? eh. they're both in the book, and both kind of needed to 'get' the character of Theon, but honestly i really can't stand Theon (and he gets much worse as things go on) so my opinion of "eh" may be more personal than objective.

Jacquen? awesome? Sallador? awesome. and obviously Tyrion and the council (including his explicit/added interaction with Varys and his trading jabs with his sister) was wonderful; Peter hits every nuance, and Lena and the guiy who pays Varys are both amazing. it's funny: when i read the King's Landing portions of the books, i rushed through because ICK to most of those characters. now i really want to know where Sansa is, and i want to see more of Tyrion and Cersei. Balish, though, i still want to smother with a pillow.

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I forgot Jeyne doesn't show up again 'till DwD, assuming the actress who played her is a similar age to Maisie/Sophie then she'll probably be eighteen by the time they get to that. If she's cool with nude scenes then fine, if not then they can either replace the actress or tone down the scenes. Either way she'll look so different from the last time we saw her that Reek is going to have to make it clear who she is. And she won't be played by Ros (I seriously can't believe this is even a discussion...)

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Slightly off-topic terminology check: does 'White Walkers' encompass both Others and Wights, or does it only refer to one or the other?

White Walkers = Others

Wights = Wights

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White Walkers = Others

Wights = Wights

Which is itself a problem, because many people would pronounce “wight walkers” and “white walkers” identically, or even perceive them to be identical even if pronounced distinctly.

Can’t you just hear it now? “Hey, are there any blacks in the south to go with the wights in the north?”

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Great episode. Nothing really extraordinary happening, but it's the beginning of the season, and the events coming up should be heart pounding.

My favorite scene would have to be Jon Snow and his spying on Craster. May not have been exactly like the book, but it was great and had me with my mouth open. And it was awesome to see the Others/White Walkers again, albeit very briefly.

One thing I didn't totally like was how we go from seeing Theon laying with the captain's daughter, and then the next get an additional two sex scenes right after in Littlefinger's brothel. Usually I don't mind the sex, but these first two episodes have had more sex in them than last year's first two episodes. But whatever.

And can't forget the great scenes we had with Arya and the Night's Watch recruits. And Yoren is such a badass. Too bad we'll probably get his death next episode....

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Ah, and also, say what you will about the Dragonstone scenes, but the visual composition is just brilliant. Fiery Melisandre standing before the Painted Table, behind her only the darkness of the night...

That's enough to make me shiver, more than any dialogue.

agreed. the visual idea behind that scene made the impact for me. the fact they had sex? meh. at least, as others have said, it explains the shadow son who will kill Renly.

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Stannis isn't really working for me yet, and I thought they spent a long time with Davos and Saan dancing around Davos' backstory without actually telling it so I'm not sure if that made any sense if you haven't read the books. But we have a lot of time ahead of us with Stannis and Davos so there's plenty of time to get to know them better.

What I thought was missing from the Theon-Yara/Asha scene was that Asha pretends to be someone else not just to mess with Theon's head but so that he would act like himself in front of her and she could get him to say things he wouldn't have said to her face. I thought that was important to get across so she doesn't come off like a perv.

This was probably the first Ros scene that I actually liked, if it was just taken out of context standing on its own. In context, I don't like how they're making LF such an open villain and that scene went on way too long taking away time from other things.

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So have They confirmed that the Reeds are definitely cut? Because of all the changes, this is the one that really cheeses me off the most.

Spoiler
I have a feeling they'll cram Bran\Rickon together with Osha and have them both flee with her, and cut out the whole CotF / Bloodraven / Bran / Coldhands plot all together. Maybe they thought it was too hippie-dippy-magical for the audience to get into, or maybe they're going to focus less on the mystical bits and more on the actual war bits. Whatever the reason, I don't like it, especially if they cut that whole thing out. Notice they haven't spent a huge amount of time on the three-eyed crow idea...
Edited by Gloria

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Edited to remove dupe content, and mask future-book spoilers

Edited by Gloria

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Which is itself a problem, because many people would pronounce “wight walkers” and “white walkers” identically, or even perceive them to be identical even if pronounced distinctly.

Can’t you just hear it now? “Hey, are there any blacks in the south to go with the wights in the north?”

I hate this name in GoT - it have sense in books, where the Others are very pale etc. And here with this dark predator look? It makes no sense, because they walk through the snow? oh, hell, the Night's Watch deals with snow also.

It's quite funny, I never complain about actors appearance and their similarity to the orginal etc. as far they can act, but when someone changes names I get nervous :)

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