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Ran

[Book Spoilers] Ep 202 Discussion

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Made a thread about this but it seems it wasn't approved... what did people make of Bronn being made City Watch commander? I always thought it was good that Tyrion removed Slynt and replaced him with a veteran in Ironhand. I suppose Bywater wasn't exactly a major character but it showed that Tyrion saw the importance of raising those that deserve it. Would the goldcloaks accept Bronn as their leader? Also, Tyrion was pretty just and professional in his decisions during his time as Hand (even if the people didn't see that). It seems weird that he'd relieve one of Cersei's lickspittles of his duty then raise a questionable mercenary to such an important rank. Promoting Ironhand was a great move because he gained a key follower and he was also a veteran goldcloak and would command the respect of his men.

Just a minor thing but it bugged me.

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There are way too many characters already in the books (for television) and Bronn has little to do this season other than Episode 9. This is a very sensible reduction.

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Yeah but what more will he do now as commander of the city watch? Wear gold armour instead of black? It was his gradual rise from mercenary to Tyrion's captain of guards (recruiting other mercenaries within the city, including the Kettleblacks) to knight post-Blackwater (being made a knight after serving as commander of the gold cloaks and being replaced my Addam Marbrand is a bit silly, unless Tywin keeps Bronn on as commander in the tv show) to minor lord was what made Bronn unique.

Thinking about it, I guess it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine Tywin keeping Bronn on as commander when he comes to town at the end of the season. I guess this means no Addam Marbrand either.

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Thinking about it, I guess it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine Tywin keeping Bronn on as commander when he comes to town at the end of the season. I guess this means no Addam Marbrand either.

Perhaps he replaces Bronn as City Watch Commander but has him marry Lollys to placate him.

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You do have to suspend disbelief a little bit, re: Bronn as City Watch commander. But I don't expect he'll be holding on to the post after this season -- Tywin will almost certainly shoo him out of it.

Edited by Ran

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I have read a lot of posts about how Dillane isn't carrying it as Stannis. I disagree. I especially liked the moment when he asked Melissandre what she whispered to Matthos. His stare is pretty spot on with what I viewed as Stannis. Also remember he really has not gotten much screen time I think they will put more emphasis on him and Davos when he meets up with Renly all the way to Blackwater. That is my guess at any rate. Dillane is a fantastic actor all I am saying is give him a chance.

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Hi All - First Post!

Now that I can get on, here we go... :)

The posts on here are pretty represantive of my feelings anyway on the changes - some good, some bad, however, essentaily massively lost opportunities to further cement the series and new characters for me.

Theon and Asha's exchange was one of the funniest parts in the books so far and should have been been acted verbatim IMO. Asha letting theon go only so far before taking control again, verbally and physically, kept the scene on track and Ironic - the TV scene was plain seedy and I do not see how any none Book reader will grow to appreciate Asha/yara/whatever

Stannis......

On whether Stannis had sex with Mel in the books:

A Storm of Swords U.S. paperback pg. 347

"Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off anymore to make another son. It might well kill him." Melissandre moved closer, " With another man, though...a man whose flames still burn hot and high...if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..."

Thanks! That's exactly what I have been looking for to substantiate the relatinship between Stannis and Mel as i could not place it in the books, or on the forum. My first reaction was "Nooooo!!" and actually still is, but for a different reason now. The above passage is from what I expect will be part of the next season and is from the 3rd book and not at this point. At Renly's murder, we just know that Mel is involved but not how she did it. At this point (Book2), my thoughts of the "Shadow Baby" was just one of magic and Mel's Power (Mel seduces/rapes Stannis while he is asleep?). Stannis admits to Davos that he has trouble sleeping; dreams of being in renly's tent and his Bloody peach etc. if we have to keep the table scene, why was it needed now? The shock of renly's murder will now be completely lost to everyone when it happens and could easily be covered (by the table scene) in the following episode? For me, an ideal oportunity to spice up the Magic aspect has been lost.

I concede that Stannis' character is open to question as he is not a POV character, however, Davos is not the only source of character witness that we get for Stannis, with all forming the same summary: Stannis is Iron, brittle, never bends and is above all dutiful - Davos finger bones are the perfect summary of who Stannis is - ultimatley unforgiving (I also feel unimaginative but thats a personal take) which is his ultimate character flaw (and easily malleable by Mel)

It's a big Reach, but, I always considered that Stannis would "find out" that Mel is using him and react to this - casting her adrift in a future book in a big way. Currently, he seems more consenting Pawn than the current King to be, Pre Blackwater. Post Blackwater, now, thats another thing... :)

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I have read a lot of posts about how Dillane isn't carrying it as Stannis. I disagree. I especially liked the moment when he asked Melissandre what she whispered to Matthos. His stare is pretty spot on with what I viewed as Stannis. Also remember he really has not gotten much screen time I think they will put more emphasis on him and Davos when he meets up with Renly all the way to Blackwater. That is my guess at any rate. Dillane is a fantastic actor all I am saying is give him a chance.

I think the actor playing Davos is more how I pictured Stannis. He has that stern look and clenched jaw.

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Book Stannis always seemed a somewhat cartoonish and unbelievable character to me. I have no problem whatsoever with TV Stannis.

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I was looking forward to discussing this episode, but seriously I canĀ“t stand all this wailing of women about changes and sex.

Personally, I loved it.

Spot on! :)

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it sucked. What is up with that crap? I know some stuff has to change coz actors move on or whatever but Joon playing scooby doo woods detective? oh come on, not only that but they make it a cliff hangar that Jon gets knocked out playing detective? total bullshit

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At Renly's murder, we just know that Mel is involved but not how she did it. At this point (Book2), my thoughts of the "Shadow Baby" was just one of magic and Mel's Power (Mel seduces/rapes Stannis while he is asleep?). Stannis admits to Davos that he has trouble sleeping; dreams of being in renly's tent and his Bloody peach etc. if we have to keep the table scene, why was it needed now? The shock of renly's murder will now be completely lost to everyone when it happens and could easily be covered (by the table scene) in the following episode? For me, an ideal oportunity to spice up the Magic aspect has been lost.

It's quite a leap to go from Mel and Stannis have sex to the invisible assassin was actually given birth by her, if we don't actually see her being pregnant first. If they show her pregnant then I would agree with you.

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next episode.....

Craster is about to kill Jon but then stops because Ghost growls and threatens him..... like yeah, Ghost would never let Jon get hit on the head in the first place but whatever. Pretty annoyed about this crap being played around with. GRRM obviously doesn't care about the others in 4 subsequent books, whyt we have to put up with it here all of a sudden

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next episode.....

Craster is about to kill Jon but then stops because Ghost growls and threatens him..... like yeah, Ghost would never let Jon get hit on the head in the first place but whatever. Pretty annoyed about this crap being played around with. GRRM obviously doesn't care about the others in 4 subsequent books, whyt we have to put up with it here all of a sudden

"Ghost would never let Jon get hit on the head in the first place" Ehhh Ghost is out hunting alone alot in the books. He is not babysitting Jon 24/7

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It's quite a leap to go from Mel and Stannis have sex to the invisible assassin was actually given birth by her, if we don't actually see her being pregnant first. If they show her pregnant then I would agree with you.

.

Judging from the trailers we will most definitely see Mel give birth to the shadowbaby. And if I'm remembering correctly from the book, Davos remarked that she looked as if she was to deliver any moment, at that time.

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Well, that quote from ASOS might imply they had sex. Or it might not. Sex usually doesn't kill people, even tired or depressed people. That's the beauty of mystery. Not everything must be dumbed down to a yes/no question. That's what made the books great.

But I think the argument whether it's true to the books or not kinda misses the real point. That scene wasn't put in the episode for its value to the story. It wasn't in the books so no one can honestly say it is vital or even important to the story. From the story point of view it would've been better/more shocking to keep the shadows a mystery the way it's in the books. The real reason for that scene was HBO's "boob quota".

Same with the endless brothel scenes. It's obvious the brothels/Ros aren't put there for LF or anything plot related. LF is put there for the brothels. It's the same "lowest common denominator" attitude by the producers that leads to the excessive amount of sex scenes at the cost of important plot elements. The Tullys are cut, the Reeds are cut, Catelyn is cut, all the other character arcs are cut to the bone and a bit more. Anyone who read the books can give you a list of things he wanted to see but won't. But no one can ever say the show doesn't have enough sex scenes.

I think that by endlessly arguing whether a certain sex scene is canon or how to fit it to the books we're excusing the producers attitude to the story. I prefer to see more of the story at the expense of gratuitous sex scenes than more sex scenes at the expense of the story.

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next episode.....

Craster is about to kill Jon but then stops because Ghost growls and threatens him..... like yeah, Ghost would never let Jon get hit on the head in the first place but whatever. Pretty annoyed about this crap being played around with. GRRM obviously doesn't care about the others in 4 subsequent books, whyt we have to put up with it here all of a sudden

Agreed.

Meanwhile, we get the wolfdream of Jon-as-Ghost. Next morning Jon wakes up in the woods with a headache, talks to Mormont about seeing the white Walker but keeps mum about Craster. And the plot continues past the diversion same as in the book.

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.

Judging from the trailers we will most definitely see Mel give birth to the shadowbaby. And if I'm remembering correctly from the book, Davos remarked that she looked as if she was to deliver any moment, at that time.

But in the books there are two shadow babies, one for Renly and one for Storm's End. The first is out of the blue, we even see Mel from Cat's perspective just before and there's no mention of her looking pregnant, the second we get much more from Davos' perspective.

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