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[Book Spoilers] Ep 202 Discussion


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I also thought Mel "seduced" Stanis in his sleep (maybe with him subcounsiously aware of it) and that "he always does what is right". Having sex just at the promise of a son seems to lesson his character and his strength.

I liked it, and also the show of weakness hidden from view. Brings a little more realism in the character for the screen: for me, Stannis in the books is just barely on this side of absurd. Even the most iron-willed have a button, if you can find it…

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Really, really liked this episode.

All the stuff with Arya on the King's Road-Yoren, Hot Pie, Lommy, Jaqen, Gendry-seemed spot on to me. Exactly how I pictured it.

The Tyrion scenes were great (the only complaint I have is the "fish pie" line kinda grossed me out...and they kept repeating it over and over)

Davos, Salla, and Mathos were great.

I actually really liked the scene with Mel and Stannis. It was sufficiently awkward, which is how I imagine it went down in the book, and will answer a lot of questions when she births the shadowbaby. I am a little sad that they've possibly left out Shireen, which makes me think she won't have an important role in the books in the future. Also, it won't give an introduction to greyscale.

I thought the Ironborn scenes were really good. I liked Balon and I also liked Asha/Yara. I liked how it showed Theon strutting into Pyke like he owned the place, all decked out in his finest, and ended up looking like a fool. Again, just as I pictured it.

Craster's was a lot creepier this episode, and I think it was a good choice to show him actually giving a child to the Others. Ghost also looked great.

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Having Joffrey be responsible for the purge of his father's (or so he thinks) bastards makes him a better villain;

I'm coming to terms with the fact that the writers/producers are going to take their artistic liberties. Or, I'm resigned to it, anyway. I won't agree with all the changes or additions, but maybe they won't all piss me completely off.

That said, I don't see why Joffrey needs to be a better villain, when it's his mother that perfectly fills that role. I don't want a softer, sympathetic Cersei. I want bitch-monster Book!Cersei, the one who verbally bitch-slaps Tyrion in this episode, ripping him for her mother's death.

Joffrey is a whiny brat that screams for his mommy when he cuts himself on the throne. Cersei is the one who is crazy, power-hungry and bloodthirsty enough to murder babies. (Nevermind the fact that, are we really meant to believe that Joffrey is smart enough to have coordinated the search for all Robert's bastards?)

I can only hope that, after the Purple Wedding, Cersei goes into her crazed mode, and we get her on-screen as she's meant to be.

Edited by Katydid
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Didn't Sallador Saan wear very flamboyant clothing?

Compared to Davos' and Matthos' drab seaweed cloaks, he had very extravagant clothes. He also sported an exotic scabbard. What was flamboyant was his swaggering pimp-walk when he bid them adieu.

Loved the bit where he made it look like he was going to make a grab for Matthos, and Matthos literally jumped away from him.

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Let me begin by saying that I rated the episode a solid 8. I will reserve the 10 for the Blackwater episode, which I think would be awesome to see.

I want to address, what I view as a recurring problem for the book-loyalists. I have said this before, we must be able to see the TV show as its own thing. And as such, it has a slightly different discourse on Power. I think even from the pre-season that dealing with Power is the theme of the season. The books are such an expansive and limitless medium of discourse, that GRRM is able to comment on a plethora of ways of handling power. The TV series, needs (by the necessity of the medium) to converge on a discourse, a unity of opinion towards which actions happening on different continents and in different kingdoms can climax towards. I think there is also, with characters like Ros and the girl on the boat and the Arya storyline, a hint towards some kind of a class politics. Remember, these are not 'players' of the 'game of thrones' but pawns albeit with their own agency and limits of operation.

In that sense, both the Stannis scene and the Ros/LF scene works beautifully. Look at how we hear and like different renditions of classic songs by new artists. They all bring in a bit of their own to the material even though the structure of the song, the lyrics, the music is essentially the same.

This TV adaptation works in exactly the same way. And the symphony they play is a sweet one indeed...

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Seeing Jon getting ko'ed by Caster, was thinking...

Will they skip Half-hand and Jon's supposed betrayl and start his Wildling adventure now?

Maybe the Fist of the First Men is replaced by an attack on Craster's Keep.

It's one way to condense the story.

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PS What the hell are warning points and why don't I have any of them?

Ahem, as someone who does have a warning point, I shall explain. Once upon a time long, long ago, I was browsing here and drinking wine in the middle of the night. At some point, the wine told me it would be a great and clever idea to post a nasty poem about a couple of the members I wasn't getting along with. It felt like the wittiest, giggle-inducing idea I'd had in a long while. Til the next morning. My poem was gone and I had a convo from Ran that I was suspended for 3 days. Alas. THAT'S how you get a warning point!

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Loved the way they made Pyke look. Awsome. Loved Ghost even more ... they put in the red eyes at last.

In general: mixed feelings. But I realise it would be nearly impossible for Season 2 of the show to get me hooked completely. Season 1 taught me GRRM and the books existed :blushing: and after that I have read the books several times.

So my hopes were not that high up when watching Season 2 ...

But to give credit to the show: I like what they are doing.

You have to be very explicit, you can't use the subtle build up in the books.

- Suspicions confirmed that Joffrey could have had a hand in ordering the slaying of the bastard children in Kings Landing. It fits in that the show seems to make Cersei look more as a counterpart of Catelyn, less evil and disturbed than she is in the books.

- Littlefingers scene with Roz: I get why at this stage they have to picture him as an evil schemer and a pimp. Otherwise viewers wouldn't get what happens between him and Sansa later on.

- Bronn as commander of the City Watch was a shock. I suppose they are cutting the whole thing with Lollys and found a way to get him in a position where his later choices will be better understood.

- Silver and the bloodrider: digressions I can understand, serving the goal of fleshing up Dany's desperate situation

- Craster whacking Jon I definitely didn't like, have to wait how they are resolving this in Episode 3 but it was a thing I disliked. I can understand they must have a cliffhanger for the audience that has not read the books.

- Jacqen, Rorge and Biter: nice. Aptly done.

- Tyrion: mixed feelings. Found his acting performance better in Season 1. He gives the impression of a bad ass and not the man who is ambition driven but at the main time terribly insecure.

All in all kudo's for the show runners.

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Ow forgot: Stannis and Melisandre: yes of course we knew from the books they had sex. The one thing I found disappointing that the show suggests Stannis does it because he is promised a son. The books are clear imo, although subtle: he has sex with her because he knows it will cause Renly's death.

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I liked Stannis' depiction so far in the series.

While I seem to be in a minority, it is clear to me that Stannis is not any kind of moral reference, although Davos and himself see him as such.

Stannis has time and again shown a lot of moral shortcomings, not least of all deep hypocrisy, and the TV Series seems to understand that perfectly.

Incidentally, I have often wondered why Davos is so loyal to him. Am I the only one wondering if the episode wanted to hint of a homosexual attraction to Stannis, with that talk about he being his God?

This, this, and more this.... everyone always stating that Stannis is this way or Stannis is that way in the books always seems to forget that we really only see Stannis from one POV and that's Davos. I've thought all along that Davos had a man crush on Stannis, anyway. People claiming that Stannis hates bastards and would never father one or do anything for one seem to forget that he was more than willing to give Winterfell to Jon in order to get what he wanted. I think people are giving Stannis way too much credit and he is just a man, after all.

I think the Mel/Stannis scene was fine and was probably pretty close to what would have happened in the books if we had a POV.

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Yes, thank you - - I meant the Purple one!

You're welcome. I never did understand though why fans dubbed it the "Purple Wedding."

Joffrey's face was explicitly mentioned as having turned black. "The Black Wedding" should be more apt!

Edited by FiveByeSeven
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