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[Book Spoilers] Ep 202 Discussion


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Tyrion has an inner monologue/thinks , that Varys's visit was a hidden threat, a message to him, like " i know whta you're hiding and since you're hiding it, then i know it means much to you"

Exactly espeically when Varys repeated Shae's obvious lie . . . Varys threatened him big time . Tyrion did fall into the trap Varys was trying to get his goat, Tyrion lost his coolness . . can't do that with Varys.

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WOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Loved it. And can finally get on the forums now. ;)

I'll probably be repeating what has been said but here it goes:


-Badass of the Week award goes to Yoren. At first, when he brought his knife between the Goldcloak's legs, I thought we were going to get a castration joke - but the fact that he basically was threatening to sever the dude's femeral artery...you just don't get cooler than that. It'll be sad when he dies, the actor playing him is just perfect.

-Arya/Gendry/Hot Pie/Lommy were all perfect. One of the few sunny moments this season with the "m'lady" scene. Made me smile. :)

-Quick look at Jaqen, made me pleased to learn I'd been pronouncing his name correctly. Looking forward to the Ghost of Harrenhall stuff.

Kings Landing

-All of Tyrion's stuff was money, as usual. I loved that they brought in the fact that his mom died giving birth, and that Cersei finally found a weak spot in him.

-I got giddy with fanboy excitement when they kept Bronn's line about asking how much. I love when they lift lines directly from the book like that.

-Varys was effing amazing this week with Tyrion, too. Those two actors together make a great scene.

-Littlefinger scene brought his character to a whole new level, from scheming bastard to ruthless sociopath. I loved that monologue.

-I personally found the multiple levels of peep-holes in the brothel really amusing on a second watch. It's a great analogy for the devious politics of the capitol.

North of the Wall

-Dolorous Edd had our whole group laughing, even the non-readers. Great choice leaving him in in the show.

-The actor playing Sam is awesome! I love that they're making him sort of a horndog, it makes him a more compelling and (sym)pathetic character.

-I don't mind the change with Jon/Craster. I'm looking forward to seeing how it gets resolved. It's nice to be surprised sometimes when I've read the books so many times.

-Gilly was cast perfectly too. Oh and Ghost was awesome, more convincing than Grey Wind IMO.


-I love Davos' actor, but he talks too damn fast. Maybe it's just because I'm American, but the thick accent with the speed of his dialogue makes me have to really listen hard to pick up the lines. Loved the stuff about Stannis being his god, though.

-Sallador was well-cast and perfectly scripted. Loved when he made Mathos squirm a bit.

-Mel/Stannis scene was done about as well as it could have been. Also, CVH is really freakin' hot, so that helped.

Red Waste

-A lot of meh. I feel like they're over-using Dany's lines about vengeance and blood and fire and blah blah. I know the show-writers can't really help it when Dany doesn't do much in the second book, but it's still boring when she comes on screen.


-The visuals of Pyke are stunning, exactly how I thought it'd be.

-Balon Greyjoy was cast so perfectly (I feel like I'm saying that a lot).

-LOL at how they handled the Theon/Asha stuff. Even funnier than in the books, with Asha's line about "Anyone with a cock can be fooled" or something.

-Alfie Allen is doing Theon justice with his portrayal. We're already seeing the inner conflict. I've always thought Theon was one of the most tragic characters in the entire series, and I think if the show gets to the 5th book material, Alfie will portray him excellently.

Great episode overall! I like the deviations for the most part, and the parts where it's staying true to the books are stellar.

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Why did they change Asha Greyjoy's name to Yara? I can almost understand last season's change of Robert Arryn to Robin Arryn because they thought the audience couldn't figure out two characters with the same first name, but why change Asha???

I believe it was to not confuse nonbook readers from Ohsa. Thought Asha and Osha were too close so they went with Yara.

Thought it was a great episode and new characters well casted. Dont mind the changes at all. I like being surprised and it being different so I am kept guessing. Sick of Ros though but I know they need to give LF screen time and that is never a bad thing because he is so amazingly casted. I could watch Tyrion and Cersie go back and forth forever and have Varys step in from time to time. Best casted and acted trio of characters in the series IMO.

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So Craster has captured Jon. Will this be the catalyst for Jon being sent to the wildlings?

That's a good thought, they've already changed Jon's story when it comes to that anyways. He asks Mance if he saw where they put the bastard at Robert's feast when asked about deserting but in the tv version he wasn't even in the feast. I guess he could have said they didn't let him in at all but maybe they're wanting to give him a nobler reason to forsake his vows even if the audience is going to know it's a ruse anyways.

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My thoughts:

- A randy episode. .Fish pies and semen lips. lol Stannis taking Mel atop the Painted Table was a nice touch.

-Bronn as Lord Commander makes sense. Bywater is just another character to add.

-Joffrey ordering the bastard massacre also makes sense. I don't think it was about his legitimacy but rather a way to show power and act out towards Cersei. Cersei knew all along and she did nothing. she also shamed him by slapping him in front of people. Well Joffrey is not going to take that. A strong king ACTS. It also plants a seed that Joffrey is quite capable of sending men with daggers to kill children. ;)

-This episode was very good at showing the power of women in Westeros. Cersei is regent and controls the Small Council. Her brother is contesting with her for power. While that may have been a draw so far, she greatly wounded him by hurling Jaime and Joanna against him. That was painful. Yara (I think I may be one of the few that doesn't mind the name change) humiliates her brother and is firmly set as her father's right hand. Melisandre seduces black iron Stannis with dreams of sons and power. She also has Davos' son bent toward her new god.

-Set against that are Gilly, Ros, and the captain's daughter. Misused by men and treated as property to be beaten, sold, and even murdered if they do not perform in they wats expected of them. While we have gotten to see the mostly good life of the nobility, I'm glad we are also getting to see the horrors of medievel life.

-Podrick! Ghost! Alas for Rakharro. Poor Shireen. In the books she has greyscales, in the tv show she doesn't exist.

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You're welcome. I never did understand though why fans dubbed it the "Purple Wedding."

Joffrey's face was explicitly mentioned as having turned black. "The Black Wedding" should be more apt!

I assumed it was because the color purple signifies royalty, and it was a royal wedding.

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In my opinion, this episode shows us why it was a huge mistake to downplay Selyse: Truly, why is Stannis even married if this woman did not give him an heir? And Shireen can't be cut. Stannis may not be dead at the end of ADwD, but he is supposed to be dead. Shireen will be declared Queen. So what's going to happen in the TV series if they ever reach that point?

They have to give us Shireen back. The girl is as 'important' as Tommen and Myrcella. She may have little/no screen time, but her existence is important politically.

As to the sex scene: I don't mind it, nor do I mind the setting. Stannis Baratheon cannot be as 'opposed' to sex as his appearance makes us believe. But I do not believe that Mel could seduce Stannis by promising him a son. Nor do I believe that he longed this desperately for a son. If he did, he would have sex with Selyse on a regular basis. As king Stannis would be able to legitimize his bastard son by Mel, true, but would he do this? If Stannis never got an child from Selyse, would he not rather put his wife aside, divorce her, and take Melisandre as his new queen? I think he would, so this does not make any sense at all.

There is a love story between Stannis and Mel. But this only begins after the Blackwater. Before that, Stannis saw Mel only as means to an end (i.e. the Iron Throne). She was his red falcon. Afterwards, she really started to comfort him. And the line in ADwD strongly indicates that Stannis spends his nights with Melisandre on a regular basis. Apparently you can have sex with that woman and not making (shadow) babies ;-). But even then, Stannis is never under her thumb/in her thrall. He outright threatened to kill her in ASoS during the Edric Storm business. He would have done it, if they had ended up sacrificing him without the promised results...

The better thing would have been to play the religious/royal card. Promising Stannis that by laying with her the Lord of Light would give him what he wanted (i.e. the Iron Throne and justice). Also, with Selyse as devoted follower of Melisandre we would have gotten a rather interesting dynamic here. As I see it, it's quite likely that Selyse encouraged Stannis to have sex with Melisandre because it's 'God's will'. Making all of Stannis's followers R'hllorians (and Matthos Seaworth the only talking face of them) lead to that stupid dialogue about religion and atheism between Stannis and his son. Davos only said that Stannis was his god to Axell Florent if I'm not mistaken, because he was afraid that they would consider still a follower of the Seven. But Matthos never would 'report' Davos to Mel/Stannis, so this whole stuff seemed quite out of place to me.

They also gave the first chance away to have Salladhor Saan tell us about the original Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. Telling this story is one of the main purposes of Salladhor Saan in the books, so I really think they missed an opportunity here.

As to Littlefinger and Ros:

Completely pointless. Spying and whores and customers alike further makes Littlefinger a moron. The man does not care about sex. He only cares about money, influence, and power. Sure, owning brothels and spying on customers can give him leverage over them, but he would not do this personally. The man is head of the royal treasury. He has work to do.

As for Ros, I simply do not care. I don't see where she is going from here nor do I care. I just found this scene a waste of time. We already knew Littlefinger is an ass, so what was the point?

I also don't like the Joffrey-Cersei-change. Joff is not that much older in the series, and since adulthood starts at the age of 18, not 16, Joffrey should be as far from being a man grown in the series as he was in the books. The Regent rules, the king does not. Considering Cersei's personality she would not back down this easily, nor should series-Joffrey have the cunning to circumvent his mother. Giving Slynt an order is not the same thing than diverging from the script in public. Cersei and the council had real difficulties to countermand Joff's order of executing Ned, but the whole thing makes Cersei a stupid, whining mother. But it's somewhat coherent with Joff's character. He would do this, and it's not that unbelievable that he would have heard talk about Robert's various affairs and his bastard brothers. Killing them is the right thing to do after Stannis sent out his letters.

The rest, Pyke, Asha, Balon, and the captain's daughter, the Kingsroad, Arya, Gendry, Jaqen, Hot Pie and especially Lommy ('I'd yield!') were really great. Not sure about the Jon scene in the end, though. Hundreds of NW men slept around Craster's Keep that night. Would Craster risk to slip out to deliver a boy to the Others? I don't think so...

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I agree that Stannis sleeps with Melisandre in the novels, but did you find that scene acceptable and in general Stannis portrayal acceptable? I think they should have showed Stannis differently in the show than they did and also provided more character development for him.

Stannis in the books is Iron willed, very determined, has a very strong sense of believing in his moral code, has strong feelings of bitterness. And also he does not seem as lust obsessed (or obsessed about Melisandre giving his a son) as show Stannis. I don't think the tv show was very successful with its portrayal of Stannis.

How much of a moral code would expect any straight man to have with a naked woman in his face?
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I'm yet another who does not like TV Stannis. TV Stannis is not steel, he is soft lead that melts in Mel's hands. He doesn't even look like Stannis.

He's supposed to be the brittle iron (Robert was the 'true steel') but the TV Stannis is ineffectual pewter.

Edited by Balefont
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-Joffrey ordering the bastard massacre also makes sense. I don't think it was about his legitimacy but rather a way to show power and act out towards Cersei. Cersei knew all along and she did nothing. she also shamed him by slapping him in front of people. Well Joffrey is not going to take that. A strong king ACTS. It also plants a seed that Joffrey is quite capable of sending men with daggers to kill children. ;)

Except that Joffrey isn't capable, nor a "strong king." He's a brat and an idiot, and I'd really prefer to see the character that way.

His mother is the true power behind the throne, and I feel like she's coming dangerously close to being wasted in this young season. :(

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I believe it was to not confuse nonbook readers from Ohsa. Thought Asha and Osha were too close so they went with Yara.

Although it's strange the writers would remedy the situation by substituting a name that sounds like "Arya."

I wasn't a fan of the Littlefinger-Roz scene. I suppose the writers are trying to show us just how ruthless LF is, but can't they have found a more interesting way than having him threaten a character who can in no way strike back?

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Oh, and I really have to compliment Conleth for this episode. He really can be menacing without being becoming all that explicit. That's how Petyr should be as well. Littlefinger does not make threats. He, ah, say that he would appreciate to be left out of Tyrion's intrigues. That's how he threats. And Varys, well, Varys never actually threats anyone at all. He just makes conversation. They really got that one right, I have to admit it.

The only thing they have to repair eventually is Varys's disguise stuff. But as of yet there is no real use for it, I guess.

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So folks can confuse Yara with Arya....right.

Because Asha and Osha sound very much alike in the UK accents that they are using. Using standard IPA notation, we might well have these pairs:

  • Asha: U.S. /ˈæʃə/, U.K. /ˈɑːʃə/
  • Osha: U.S. /ˈɔːʃə/, U.K. /ˈɒːʃə/

Surely you can see that while the U.S. pronunciations are reasonably far apart, the U.K. pronunciations that they would necessarily be using are really rather similar. Yes, there are other U.K. possibilities, but those given above are the most likely ones, and it’s way too close — much much closer, say, than the cited counterexample of Arya and Yara.

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Seeing Jon getting ko'ed by Caster, was thinking...

Will they skip Half-hand and Jon's supposed betrayl and start his Wildling adventure now?

Maybe the Fist of the First Men is replaced by an attack on Craster's Keep.

It's one way to condense the story.

That could be, and if it is, I'll be pissed as it will, in my opinion, skip the biggest bad ass moment when Squire Dalbridge stayed behind to give his brothers more time.

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I dont mind the changes that they have been making. By and large its all minor stuff. Bronn commanding the city watch? A really nice touch I thought.

Most Awesome scenes..

Sallador and Davos. Sallador is awesome. Loved the Cersei fucking dialogue.

Theon and the captian's daughter. She was amazingly cast. I feel sorry for the poor girl having to show those nasty tits on screen though...

Tyrion and Slynt. Not quite so awesome as the books but they did a good job.

Balon Greyjoy. Great casting. He is fucking dope.

The one thing that really bothered me....

Asha/Yara casting. In the books she was my favorite female character. I also envisioned her as being FUCKING SEXY. Sorry but her casting just doesnt do it for me. Maybe she will grow on me but so far... She's just not very good looking and doesnt emit that sex appeal she did in the books.

Cant wait for next sunday!!

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