[Book Spoilers] Crying Ros Scene

[Daktura Nurovaia]

Regarding the technicality issues that seem to have arisen with the term 'sexual predator', here is a quote I took from http://www.stopsexoffenders.com:

"For the most part, a child is seduced in the same way as one adult seduces another. The offender takes him places, buys him things, impresses the child with his own personality, makes the child feel loved and indebted to the offender, then becomes physical with the child. It starts subtly, by holding hands, placing an arm over the shoulder, or putting a hand in the lap, then graduates to more explicit conduct."

That the Littlefinger/Sansa dynamics hasn't yet 'graduated to more explicit conduct' might be attributed to the fact of her 'maidenhead' being the key to securing the annulment of her marriage with Tyrion, conditio sine qua non for Littlefinger's plans for Sansa to come to fruition (or maybe we just did not have enough Littlefinger/Sansa chapters for their relationship to have played out that way yet). Anticipating any objections that might arise on the grounds that the article I quoted referred mostly to 8-9 year old children, I should add that Sansa's sexual immaturity and inexperience with the world do not make her, in my opinion and despite her being 13 years old, any less vulnerable to Littlefinger's seduction, who, to add insult to injury, took advantage of a peculiarly desperate situation to come out to her as a saviour, a love interest and the father she had just lost, preying on her need and her destitution so as to be able to exert over her an influence he would very likely never have under normal circumstances.

That said, I really enjoyed this scene. I really loved the way it played out, initially as a bit of a comedic interlude, then taking on some really dark undertones and climaxing with a delicious bit of creep, courtesy of Littlefinger (whoever came up with the word 'transform' was genius, it really did it for that scene). I think it was really well crafted and executed and I can not stop showering HBO with praise for being bold enough to put it on screen (I'm a fan of AMC but It's little things like this that get me wondering if HBO wouldn't be able to do a better job with The Walking Dead, especially considering some of the more extreme stuff that will have to be transposed from the comics the coming season). Uniike many other posters, I totally do not think that this scene is out of character for Littlefinger. It really fits in with the perception I had of him and I am really enjoying the opportunity that the tv-show is giving me of seeing this brilliantly-crafted character fleshed out in more detail (I was very put-off with the scene with Cersei last week, though, that is undisputable).

Regarding Ros (once again challenging the orthodoxy - shower me with all the hate that you might, I will still get a freebie next time I go to chez Littlefinger's), I think overall she was a good addition to the show and that the actress is doing quite a good job at portraying the character. Actually, I always felt it kind of weird that, in a world where most of the male characters frequent brothels or, at some point or other, commerce with a prostitute, no prominent role had been assigned to one, apart from Shae (I have to confess that, at some point while reading book 2, I actually thought that was where GRRM was heading with one of the Stark girls, but lewd George fortunately managed to keep it in his literary pants).

Regarding the outcry against all the allegedly gratuitous sex, hey, what's wrong with a bit of fucking? I mean, this is a story where one of the very few tidbits we get from fan-favourite Tyrion's past involves the love of his life being gang-raped by his father's soldiers and one wherein one of the elements that sets the plot in motion involves an instance of brotherly incest. No one can acuse GRRM of being coy. Why should the tv-crew adapting his work? Plus, I see added scenes and characters as a way of expanding the ASOIAF universe, whatever the setting, and I have to say I'm quite happy with the way they have been doing it so far.

Just one final comment (this post seems to have gained a life of its own and I ended up writing much more than what I initially thought I had to say): I have been lurking for a while, but this is one of my first posts and I would really like to thank everyone on this site for having so much enrichened my ASOIAF experience throughout all of the time I have (invisible and undetected) been with you.

[bloodymime]

Regarding the technicality issues that seem to have arisen with the term 'sexual predator', here is a quote I took from http://www.stopsexoffenders.com:

"For the most part, a child is seduced in the same way as one adult seduces another. The offender takes him places, buys him things, impresses the child with his own personality, makes the child feel loved and indebted to the offender, then becomes physical with the child. It starts subtly, by holding hands, placing an arm over the shoulder, or putting a hand in the lap, then graduates to more explicit conduct."

Damn, as much as I've been writing about why Littlefinger is a sexual predator that's still creepy how eerily similar that description is to his relationship with Sansa so far.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I never doubted that Littlefinger takes advantage of and manipulates Sansa. That's not the point here. My point is that TV Littlefinger's treatment of Ros in 'The Night Lands' is out of character for Littlefinger.

1. Littlefinger is no pimp. He owns brothels, but he does not run them personally. This includes that Littlefinger does not punish/teach his whores personally. This was (somewhat) weird last season in the brothel scene, but this was too much in my opinion.

2. Littlefinger is motto is not 'Knowledge is power'. If he had a motto it would be 'Money is power'. The man buys and manipulates people, he is not Varys 2.0; which means, his brothels are not Littlefinger's private secret service thing.

3. Littlefinger would not treat his confidants/lieutenants this way. Besides all talk about 'You can't trust anyone'-stuff, Littlefinger (and Varys) are more dependent than anyone on trusted and loyal servants/tools/right hands. Littlefinger does trust people like Lothor Brune or Oswell Kettleblack, and he is also likely somewhat idolized by these people. They are, after all, more or less lowborn scum like he, and together they rise against the establishment. 'The North remembers' indicated that Ros apparently feels similar towards Littlefinger when she instructed Daisy about 'Lord Baelish' and was confident that Slynt would back down when she mentioned Littlefinger's name.

I'm not that sure about that sexual predator thing. Littlefinger is not motivated by sexual desires all that much. He did not even treat Lysa like shit. He married her, and he made her (somewhat) happy. He would not killed her had she not threatened and tried to kill Sansa. His affections/desires toward Sansa are somewhat weird, but this is not a pattern in my opinion. He is only attracted to Sansa because she is Catelyn 2.0, and he honestly loved Catelyn. Despite owning brothels, Littlefinger does not care about sex and women. That was even established with TV Littlefinger back last season when he rejected Ros's invitation to join them.

TV Littlefinger is just a weird and inconclusive character. The subtlety of book Littlefinger would have worked in the series just as well. Considering Gillen's screen time they would have more than enough to hint his true intentions. Especially since they are doing exactly the right thing with Varys, so I really don't see the point with stupid/clumsy Littlefinger...

A pimp is an agent for prostitutes who collects part of their earnings. The pimp may receive this money in return for advertising services, physical protection, or for providing (or in some cases monopolizing) a location where she may engage clients. A woman who runs a brothel is known as a madam rather than a pimp.

Pimps may punish johns for physical abuse or failure to pay and enforce exclusive rights to 'turf' where their prostitutes may advertise and operate with less competition.

The pimp-prostitute relationship can be abusive and possessive, with the pimp / madam using techniques such as psychological intimidation, manipulation, starvation, rape and/or gang rape, beating, confinement, threats of violence toward the victim’s family, forced drug use and the shame from these acts.

[hoelk]

If they hadn't all the useless brother stuff Littlefinger would get awfully little screen time wouldn't he? especially as the show progresses

[lyvyathan]

Hi, thanks for putting the topic back on track while it keeps going astray for pages about whether or not Littlefinger is a pedophile or sexual predator. That's all later in the books / series dealing with Sansa and I'm sure there will be exhaustingly long debates raging over how inappropriate or wrong it all is. In fact, i'm curious whether they'll even allow a kiss between the actors for LF and Sansa considering how touchy most are watching anything pedo related. But that's LATER!

My topic is about Ros, and the scene most are voting as unnecessary filler that does nothing to further anyone's opinion of Littlefinger's reputation as most, even those who never read the books, were pretty clear on that from season 1.

I quoted your remark because its a good point I probably failed to make. There are plenty of ways to continue showcasing Lord Baelish and 'money is power' (not knowledge as he says to cersei because we all know LF gets his power from buying people for knowledge). Plenty of opportunities we've already had and didn't need.

I liked Ros in season 1 because she gave much needed sexposition opportunities to reveal bits of secrets and plots that can't otherwise easily be translated from book to film.

In season 2, so far, it feels like they aren't quite sure what to do with Ros anymore, but she's cast for another season so for two episodes they've 'thrown her in' two scenes like some boring side dish just to make the meal look bigger. They left out major scenes with major characters altogether this week (hello what's Robb up to...you know, in the WAR?) in favor of a rather long, tediously whispered scene with Littlefinger being scary little pimp villain? Really? And folks here continue to defend it and the producers opinion of its importance? Whatever.

Thanks for your compliment.

Funnily enough - i also liked Ros in Season 1 - she was like a void where the actors could perform a soliloquy.

Season 2, I find her presence grating. It wouldn't be so much of an issue actually if HBO GoT was a long running weekly show like "CSI" or "LOST" - but they've got what? 12 episodes only? correct me if I'm wrong. So you would expect HBO to cramp as much plot into each story so that the audience (non-readers especially) aren't confused what the heck is going on and ask - who is Stennis again?

I get that they want to titilate the audience - but there has to be a better way than portraying LF as a low-life pimp which he isn't - and this really detracts from the essense of his character - he really was a devious smart devil - so smart that he also fooled Tyrion. Of all the people in the epic - he was the one who bears a large responsiblity for starting the Stark-Lannister war and for the needless slaughter which eventuated. You'd think he has better things to do with his time than to have heart-to heart sessions with his top girl.

So yeah I really think they made an error of judgement in the LF/Ros additions. Well, would they listen?

[lyvyathan]

Regarding the outcry against all the allegedly gratuitous sex, hey, what's wrong with a bit of fucking? I mean, this is a story where one of the very few tidbits we get from fan-favourite Tyrion's past involves the love of his life being gang-raped by his father's soldiers and one wherein one of the elements that sets the plot in motion involves an instance of brotherly incest. No one can acuse GRRM of being coy. Why should the tv-crew adapting his work? Plus, I see added scenes and characters as a way of expanding the ASOIAF universe, whatever the setting, and I have to say I'm quite happy with the way they have been doing it so far.

I don't think the outcry is not against the display of sex per se - but that it does little that furthered the story plot (not to mention that it is also an addition). So you get a feeling that HBO decided to draw teeth and legs onto the snake rather than to paint its color.

Added scenes do help - I believe it too - one of my all time fav scenes is in Season 1 where Robert explains to Cersei why he is concerned from Dany's marriage to the Horselord and why she is such a big threat to the 7 Kingdoms. Don't you love it when Mark Addy punches his fist and says that awesome line of his? And how they had that moment when they talked about how their marriage was the only thing that was holding up the Kingdom? That was sheer brilliance.

[lyvyathan]

I don't know what kind of "definition" you found that seems to make you believe that the only way we could classify LF as a sexual predator is if he outright has sex with Sansa.

Why, it would be his definition or what he thinks it is. And that's the only thing that matters :D

BTW, have you seen a pink elephant?

[lyvyathan]

What's troubling to me is the blatant dismissal of textual evidence which shows how the man is grooming Sansa and beginning a pattern of abuse that will in all likelihood escalate. What does this mean for the real world when some of us can't even recognize the signs of sexual abuse. When a grown man is using his power to make a young girl sit on his lap, taking kisses from her under the guise of being "daddy" and we still can't recognize that person as a sexual predator. It's honestly scary.

Why are you surprised when so many posters don't have a problem with a character showing coldness and hostility to her husband's child living in her household for 15 years? :D

[lyvyathan]

Also, I had forgotten Littlefinger's part in the Jeyne as Arya switcheroo plot. It's never detailed explicitly in the books but its quite possibly another area Littlefinger's slimy methods coerced someone into doing something against their will. I always did wonder where she vanished to all that time between the time she was taken from Sansa's room until the time she turns up as the fake Arya heading to Winterfell and a Bolton wedding.

See that's what I wanted to see - LF's role in "brainwashing" Jeyne to become "Arya". The book didn't give too much details about it - I think there was a mention that she was stashed by LF "somewhere" and then she strangely reappears complient as "Arya" and takes her role so seriously she calls out to Theon as "Arya" and talks to him at some length.

If HBO wanted to show the shitty side of LF's character they could have shown us how he was "remoulding" Jeyne - who was terrified, scared and just as deluded as (Book 1) Sansa was. ie taking her to see how girls as young as she was were being expolited in his brothels.

[Lord Varys]

Well, okay, technically Littlefinger might be a pimp. But, well, he is a pimp in a stockholder sense. He owns shares and shares and shares of many enterprises, including brothels. I'm not sure if we would call a man 'a baker' if he happened to own many enterprises, including a bakery. Littlefinger is also a shipowner (he at least owns the Merling King, the ship he uses to travel to the Vale in ASoS), but I guess we do all agree he is not defined by the fact that he owns ships.

So breaking Littlefinger down to the core-personality of 'the pimp' is just wrong.

[brashcandy]

Why are you surprised when so many posters don't have a problem with a character showing coldness and hostility to her husband's child living in her household for 15 years? :D

Hahaha! True :)

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

I must say that, while I've actually enjoyed LF's scenes this season, I feel they are a bit out of character. Not as much as some here seem to think... but enough that I notice it and think there was something that wasn't quite right in the scene. I understand LF being in his brothels, I always assumed that these whores were more than a purely monetary investment, these brothels are probably a rather important source of information for him (like Doreah said: men like to talk when they are happy). What I don't understand is why he would openly threaten Ros like that if she is indeed the overseer of this brothel, just like I don't think he would ever openly have threatened Cersei like he did in the first episode. Basically all of LF's schemes are based on people seeing him as a friend or dismissing him as a threat! Oh, well, I'll wait for a few more episodes to make my final judgement... I still love Aidan Gillen as Littlefinger, though...

Don't apologize for the way HBO is destroying the Littlefinger character. His actions in Season 2 are not "a bit out of character"; they are COMPLETELY out of character. In fact, TV LF is a totally different character from book LF now.

This makes me sick. I don't mind when the show adds additional not-in-the-books scenes or characters to help give us necessary background information from the books. But HBO has NO RIGHT to make fundamental changes to the characters of the books'.. well, characters.

Season 1 was good because it didn't deviate too much from the books' plots and characterizations. (Also it was good because it had 2 very good actors in key roles - Sean Bean & Mark Addy. Season 2 has no such appealing actors, in my opinion.)

But season 2 is doing WAY too much "interpretation" of the books' characters and making too many major changes. F that. This show has jumped the shark and will just get worse from here on.

[Serc]

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but I thought this was foreshadowing for a certain Frankengregor/Qyburn.

"A very wealthy patron, he offered me a tremendous amount of money to let him transform this lovely, sad girl. To use her in ways that never occur to most men. And you know what occurs to most men."

I thought that was the point. The books are very subtle about Qyburn working on Gregor until he's blatantly revealed.

[Lord Varys]

I don't see a connection to Qyburn here. That is, as long as they are going to mess completely with Qyburn's character in the series:

1. Qyburn is not wealthy.

2. Qyburn is a disgraced maester serving with the Brave Companions. He most likely never was in KL before he arrived there in ASoS, nor is it implied that he has connections to influential people before he starts hanging with powerful people before he hangs out with Cersei.

3. It was already implied back in season 1 that some of the patrons of Littlefinger's brothels have strange desires. In my opinion, the Lysene girl ended up with 'the certain lord' who has a thing for fresh cadavers. Or with the Tumblestone knight, who likey amputees.

[Purah]

I don't see a connection to Qyburn here. That is, as long as they are going to mess completely with Qyburn's character in the series:

1. Qyburn is not wealthy.

2. Qyburn is a disgraced maester serving with the Brave Companions. He most likely never was in KL before he arrived there in ASoS, nor is it implied that he has connections to influential people before he starts hanging with powerful people before he hangs out with Cersei.

3. It was already implied back in season 1 that some of the patrons of Littlefinger's brothels have strange desires. In my opinion, the Lysene girl ended up with 'the certain lord' who has a thing for fresh cadavers. Or with the Tumblestone knight, who likey amputees.

Alternatively he could be referencing Ramsay Snow Bolton. Reading through most of the posts, I have come to the conclusion that the scene was pretty much ok and it showcased LF's ability to "bait the dog" if you like with his false comfort (example: building the snow castle with Sansa in ASOS was kind of cute before he revealed his true intentions). And I have read a couple of reviews from those who have seen the first four episodes, one on this very site in fact, and they say that LF is wonderful in episode 4, so give the series a chance ^_^

[Envie]

Qyburn is a disgraced maester serving with the Brave Companions. He most likely never was in KL before he arrived there in ASoS, nor is it implied that he has connections to influential people before he starts hanging with powerful people before he hangs out with Cersei.

But who did Qyburn serve before he was exiled? You're forgetting the sequence of events. It's likely Littlefinger already knows Qyburn and his particular 'tastes' for live victims to do his experiments on from the past. I'm not saying Qyburn is the exact patron he's referring to when he's talking to Ros about the girl from Lys because I don't think he is - but as others have said, Littlefinger's already, on numerous occasions (by Varys mostly) been outed for his willingness to cater to exotic requests in his brothels.

I would also point out the difference here (to me):

1. LF is amoral when it comes to how his employee whores are used as he's willing to hire out girls for sexually deviant patrons but this does not necessarily label him a sexual predator himself.

2. Littlefinger's future role with Sansa and his particular 'desires' would label him a 'sexual predator' as others are so fond of pointing out.

Of coures, these are both important in the list of reasons why he's despicable and slimy. BUT - I still think the two arguments are completely separate in this thread of debates.

My argument, started at my original post, is that thus far, we've already been shown (through arguments with Varys as well as other exposition scenes) just how vile Petyr Baelish can be. The scene with his threats to Ros and the revealing of 'scary' things done to another whore who refused to be happy and work wasn't necessary for that, nor does it indicate any sort of predetermined pedophile-behavior-to-come with Sansa in the future.

Your point (and others who have stated it) does have merit: there's a possible trigger here to indicate that Littlefinger's past caterings play a significant part in future caterings as well. He's clearly willing to do it.

I too would have much rather seen him having Jeyne 'trained' for her future role as the Arya bride to Bolton - but given she too is just a young girl, I'm going to assume the producers feel that's a no-no area modern viewers are very sensitive about. Apparently consensual sex between siblings is ok to film, but anything sexual or even implying sex between an adult and child would not. Although, as I type this, I'm reminded of how young Daenerys was when she was married to Khal Drogo too - but of course in the series they made her an adult... or did they?

There's a fine line between what is consensual and forced. I don't think the 'training' of a noble girl in a whorehouse whose been taken prisoner there would be agreeable.

[Envie]

Well, okay, technically Littlefinger might be a pimp. But, well, he is a pimp in a stockholder sense. He owns shares and shares and shares of many enterprises, including brothels. I'm not sure if we would call a man 'a baker' if he happened to own many enterprises, including a bakery. Littlefinger is also a shipowner (he at least owns the Merling King, the ship he uses to travel to the Vale in ASoS), but I guess we do all agree he is not defined by the fact that he owns ships.

So breaking Littlefinger down to the core-personality of 'the pimp' is just wrong.

Well I've always agreed with your outlook on it as well. Everyone wants to argue "but a pimp IS a businessman" when I tried to point out that Baelish is an investor, a businessman, not a pimp (at least from the way he was written in the books). He owned ships but wasn't called a "captain" was he? Why is it that he owns brothels but is a "pimp" because HBO decided to make him one?

It's a little piddly argument but the implication is big when its interpreted into the role. They clearly wanted the 'sex' drama role adding him as a pimp would bring. For many it works and is juicy fun stuff. For others it seems out of character. To each his own.

In the books, although yes LF does in fact take Catelyn to one of his brothels to have her meet with Ned, there's never any indication that he spends a lot of his time there or that he takes a hand in its management the way he does in the show.

In the show, he's very hands on, to the point of wiping semen off the mouth of a whore as she walks out of a room?

No, I'm sorry but I'm not buying the way they're portraying Petyr Baelish in the show. The actor does a fantastic job in other areas, particularly small council, Varys and Ned Stark scenes... he's spot on. The 'pimp' scenes are just not jiving with that.

[Im no Ser]

Well I've always agreed with your outlook on it as well. Everyone wants to argue "but a pimp IS a businessman" when I tried to point out that Baelish is an investor, a businessman, not a pimp (at least from the way he was written in the books). He owned ships but wasn't called a "captain" was he? Why is it that he owns brothels but is a "pimp" because HBO decided to make him one?

It's a little piddly argument but the implication is big when its interpreted into the role. They clearly wanted the 'sex' drama role adding him as a pimp would bring. For many it works and is juicy fun stuff. For others it seems out of character. To each his own.

In the books, although yes LF does in fact take Catelyn to one of his brothels to have her meet with Ned, there's never any indication that he spends a lot of his time there or that he takes a hand in its management the way he does in the show.

In the show, he's very hands on, to the point of wiping semen off the mouth of a whore as she walks out of a room?

No, I'm sorry but I'm not buying the way they're portraying Petyr Baelish in the show. The actor does a fantastic job in other areas, particularly small council, Varys and Ned Stark scenes... he's spot on. The 'pimp' scenes are just not jiving with that.

As I noted elsewhere in this thread, the TV Petyr is simply a different guy: he's not as smart, not as self-discliplined and - apropos to your point - is an actual pimp (addressing customer complaints, hiring girls, managing employees) as opposed to an investor who owns several brothels as part of a diversified investment portfolio. After being upset about it initially I've just come to accept that they are making different choices for the character on the show.

[Envie]

I've just come to accept that they are making different choices for the character on the show.

Me too. I accept that they have chosen to portray Littlefinger this way in the show. My disagreement only resurfaces when people insist that the show Littlefinger is the way he was in the books in regards to the 'pimp' definition which bugs me and because people seem to think the scene with Ros was so necessary or important for some reason which I still don't agree it was. Those I've just quoted previously were in agreement and I liked what they had to say.

I did say I was done debating it but I just can't stop myself haha!

[ChromeWeasel]

Why, it would be his definition or what he thinks it is. And that's the only thing that matters :D

BTW, have you seen a pink elephant?

My definition actually came straight from the dictionary, as I've said several times in the thread. I even posted it for review in my earlier post. I do find posts like yours amusing though, for obvious reasons.