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Envie

[Book Spoilers] Crying Ros Scene

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My goodness, this is ridiculous. LF's status as a creepy predator is directly referenced in the books. I already gave the example with looking at Sansa as though she's naked; add to this kissing her while building the snow castle, wanting to marry her after Ned death, giving Jeyne over to be trained in his brothels, sourcing boys for Lyn Corbray, making Sansa kiss him, sit on his lap for "daddy time" and what in the name of the seven do you get but a sexual predator??

It showed for viewers who might not be familiar with the books just what this man is capable of. Forget him as the wizard of the game for a moment, and think of the man's innate character, especially as it relates to his treatment of women in the text. It's despicable, and throughout this book he's going to putting his plans in place for Sansa with Dontos etc. THIS is why readers needed to understand that he's not simply a suave game player, he's a low life pimp who doesn't care past his bottom line. If this doesn't jive with the image you have of LF in your head, then too bad.

Littlefinger comes across in the books much creepier then in the series though to be fair the books are far past the where the show is. This is a man who takes this young girl and proceeds to strip away her identity to the point of even changing her name, makes her believe she is complicit in the murder of her aunt all to make sure nobody knows who she is but him thus making her believe she is completely helpless and dependant upon him to stay safe and when she does good and obeys he rewards her with secrets that make her feel special and even more beholden to him.

And people are going to want to say this was for her own good to keep her protected, kind of just same way Littlefinger convinces Sansa of the same but if that was what mattered at all to him he would have let her go on to marry Willas Tyrell but what good is Sansa being safe unless he gets to own her the way he could never own Cat. Everything he does with Sansa is to make sure he and he alone possesses her.

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Littlefinger comes across in the books much creepier then in the series though to be fair the books are far past the where the show is. This is a man who takes this young girl and proceeds to strip away her identity to the point of even changing her name, makes her believe she is complicit in the murder of her aunt all to make sure nobody knows who she is but him thus making her believe she is completely helpless and dependant upon him to stay safe.

Very true, and very scary. In fact, he's implicated her in multiple murders - Dontos's, Joffrey's and most recently Lysa's. He's now going for Sweetrobin's. He also took away a small hope for happiness that she had in Willas Tyrell to guarantee that she would remain as his pawn. He may be sincere in making her a queen, but he's clearly got designs on her sexually as well, and becoming a player at the cost of everything you value is not what I would consider winning at the game.

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My goodness, this is ridiculous. LF's status as a creepy predator is directly referenced in the books. I already gave the example with looking at Sansa as though she's naked; add to this kissing her while building the snow castle, wanting to marry her after Ned's death, giving Jeyne over to be trained in his brothels, sourcing boys for Lyn Corbray, making Sansa kiss him, sit on his lap for "daddy time" and what in the name of the seven do you get but a sexual predator??

It showed for viewers who might not be familiar with the books just what this man is capable of. Forget him as the wizard of the game for a moment, and think of the man's innate character, especially as it relates to his treatment of women in the text. It's despicable, and throughout this book he's going to be putting his plans in place for Sansa with Dontos etc. THIS is why viewers needed to understand that he's not simply a suave game player, he's a low life pimp who doesn't care past his bottom line. If this doesn't jive with the image you have of LF in your head, then too bad.

Too bad? I'm not required to subscribe to your opinion on it so you don't have to say too bad so sad like that's just the facts and I'm wrong, you're right because that's making you look really pushy and extremely arrogant.

Once again, I'll agree the later actions Littlefinger takes with Sansa can be called 'creepy' ok - I'll concede to that one. But she's a young girl, not a whore in a whorehouse so of course that's a lot weirder and wrong by most's standards.

What does his heavy handed pimp thuggery in the brothel, with a character that wasn't in the books have anything to do with that? Are you telling me the producers needed this scene to make viewers despise Littlefinger and label him a sleazeball well in advance of what will happen with Sansa? Well ok, that's a possible scenario for reasons I could accept in defense of your debate. But all you're doing with your last few posts is choking it down people's throats (like a cock) that that's JUST THE WAY IT IS. And no, it isn't. Kindly stop trying to shove your e-peen down my throat. I do a lot better with suggestions and opinions and debate without heavy handed pushiness, unless you're trying to model pimp Littlefinger too. ;)

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Very true, and very scary. In fact, he's implicated her in multiple murders - Dontos's, Joffrey's and most recently Lysa's. He's now going for Sweetrobin's. He also took away a small hope for happiness that she had in Willas Tyrell to guarantee that she would remain as his pawn. He may be sincere in making her a queen, but he's clearly got designs on her sexually as well, and becoming a player at the cost of everything you value is not what I would consider winning at the game.

Caught me before my edit but we both had the same thought about Willas. That's very true about Joffrey too, a very big threat he can hold over her as long as the Lannisters have any power and a very good reason for him to make sure she's the one holding the poison when it always seemed strangely convoluted for them to use her hairpiece to hold the poison when there doesn't seem to be any actual need for it and only adds to the risk of discovery.

I also think Littlefinger making her believe she can be a player instead of a pawn is just another way of controlling her by making her feel special and different. In the long term Sansa getting any kind of knowledge outside of what he spoonfeeds her would only defeat Littlefingers plans, the day she goes outside of his sphere of influence is going to be the day that she finds out he helped betray her father.

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Too bad? I'm not required to subscribe to your opinion on it so you don't have to say too bad so sad like that's just the facts and I'm wrong, you're right because that's making you look really pushy and extremely arrogant.

Once again, I'll agree the later actions Littlefinger takes with Sansa can be called 'creepy' ok - I'll concede to that one. But she's a young girl, not a whore in a whorehouse so of course that's a lot weirder and wrong by most's standards.

What does his heavy handed pimp thuggery in the brothel, with a character that wasn't in the books have anything to do with that? Are you telling me the producers needed this scene to make viewers despise Littlefinger and label him a sleazeball well in advance of what will happen with Sansa? Well ok, that's a possible scenario for reasons I could accept in defense of your debate. But all you're doing with your last few posts is choking it down people's throats (like a cock) that that's JUST THE WAY IT IS. And no, it isn't. Kindly stop trying to shove your e-peen down my throat. I do a lot better with suggestions and opinions and debate without heavy handed pushiness, unless you're trying to model pimp Littlefinger too. ;)

:eek: My e-peen? Where do I get one of those pray tell? I would check but I'm kinda attached to my vagina at the moment. And I wasn't trying to push my opinion down your throat. I've been giving textual evidence and all your citing is that the scene doesn't fit with the image of LF. What I'm trying to say is that although we don't get one of those scenes in the novels, I could easily imagine it going down based on the kind of man we know LF is. What kind of conversation do you think he had with Jeyne for instance? Or even if he didn't interact with her directly, he's a man that runs a brothel business, and threatening and coercing whores would be a pretty standard job expectation. LF preys on the weaknesses of others, we've seen it time and time again, and he's ruthless about geting what he wants. This is why the scene with Ros fit so well. It established that just how dangerous he isin a different way than the Ned Stark scene. Here we were seeing LF the man, not the player.

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:eek: My e-peen? Where do I get one of those pray tell? I would check but I'm kinda attached to my vagina at the moment. And I wasn't trying to push my opinion down your throat. I've been giving textual evidence and all your citing is that the scene doesn't fit with the image of LF. What I'm trying to say is that although we don't get one of those scenes in the novels, I could easily imagine it going down based on the kind of man we know LF is. What kind of conversation do you think he had with Jeyne for instance? Or even if he didn't interact with her directly, he's a man that runs a brothel business, and threatening and coercing whores would be a pretty standard job expectation. LF preys on the weaknesses of others, we've seen it time and time again, and he's ruthless about geting what he wants. This is why the scene with Ros fit so well. It established that just how dangerous he isin a different way than the Ned Stark scene. Here we were seeing LF the man, not the player.

Sorry, an e-peen can exist only on the interwebs, its a virtual ego, not a real penis so it doesn't matter what you have or are attached to in your own private bits. ;) I'm also a female in real life so that's likely why we're 'hitting each others buttons' so to speak (oh gads the insinuations are getting thick)...

Ok ok - I'm going to say, I appreciate your tenacity with this topic. I've felt plenty strongly enough about people's criticisms of scenes in the past, particularly in defending Ros because so many seem do despise her addition or usefulness. Again and again I've pointed out how vital her role has been in 'sexposition' with Tyrion, Theon, Pycelle, etc..

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on just how slimy and predatory we each feel Littlefinger would behave in relation to his business assets. Some others have said they don't think Littlefinger would have that much direct physical involvement with his whores to micro manage their every little daily need or behavior.

But, that's the way HBO is doing it so that's what we've got to accept whether we think his character matches that of the books or not.

Also, I had forgotten Littlefinger's part in the Jeyne as Arya switcheroo plot. It's never detailed explicitly in the books but its quite possibly another area Littlefinger's slimy methods coerced someone into doing something against their will. I always did wonder where she vanished to all that time between the time she was taken from Sansa's room until the time she turns up as the fake Arya heading to Winterfell and a Bolton wedding.

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Even if I agreed with your statement, none of that particularly fits the definition of a sexual predator. To be a sexual predator Littlefinger should be more personally involved in stalking someone in one way or another.

Do me the courtesy of actually trying to understand the term 'Sexual Predator' as it exists today instead of trying to frame an argument to fit a word someone may have misused. Go take a quick Google for the term so you have some independent sources. 'Sexual Predator' isnt a term we just came up with on this forum. It has a real-world legal meaning and context. Littlefinger's character doesnt fit that very well.

The term 'sexual predator' is a modern term. This term exists today (and did not exist in a medieval setting such as GRRM has created) because we modern folk have made it up. It's the best modern term available to help describe Littlefinger. The best thing about GRRM's writing is his use of subtly. Since we don't have a Littlefinger POV, we only learn about his nature through other characters observations. We learn through these other POV's that Littlefinger runs a brothel, we learn that he mistreats the whores in his brothel, we learn that he sells the very vulnerable off to other predators, we learn that he preys on Lysa by using sex and the memory of sex, we learn that he's using very sexual behavior to groom and coerce Sansa. This is predatory behavior. I truly and honestly do not understand your confusion. Is there another term that you think more aptly describes Littlefinger?

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Also, I had forgotten Littlefinger's part in the Jeyne as Arya switcheroo plot. It's never detailed explicitly in the books but its quite possibly another area Littlefinger's slimy methods coerced someone into doing something against their will. I always did wonder where she vanished to all that time between the time she was taken from Sansa's room until the time she turns up as the fake Arya heading to Winterfell and a Bolton wedding.

Well during that time she was being trained in how to sexually satisfy a man. IIRC she has whip marks on her back. Anyways, yes, agree to disagree :)

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Just because the lowliness of LF character wasn't broached upon as much in the early instalments of ASOIAF does not mean it is nonsensical to let the audience know now that indeed he is a scumbag.

D&D have said they are approaching the show as an adaptation of the series, not a 1 book = 1 season scenario.

It is sensible that they are showcasing this side of LF, it isn't POV like the books, we don't get to see the face he puts on for people like Ned and Cat, we see him as he is. It is grasping at straws to defend his character and deny he wouldn't be as foul as he is currently portrayed given how lowly his later depicted actions are.

It seems to be more than just an opinion. Don't feel so bad for liking such a creep. I know people that have unhealthy obsessions with serial killers. At least this guy is fictitious.

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I have to disagree. I think this scene was incredibly vital to showing us the kind of man Littlefinger truly is. He doesn't simply make a living off women like some happy go lucky brothel owner, he exploits them and really doesn't give a shit past his bottom line. This gets to the heart of the man's character, and establishes for tv viewers just why his relationship with Sansa will be so dangerous for the girl. With HBO already running the risk of glamorising prostitution via the brothel sex scenes, I think this part was extremely useful in showing the seedy underbelly, and how men like LF make a profit whilst seliing these girls to the highest bidder.

I don't think anyone would say this is scene was out of character for Petyr (unlike last week's scene). This scene gives good insight... if the show had time for it. The problem is more that educating the audience on Petyr's selfishness is low on the priority list of topics. There is too much left out to justify this scene; and was likely made as an excuse to give Ros more screen time. The writers also seems very interested in pushing Petyr's presence on the show while neglecting others. This business with him going to Renly's camp for example and likely seeing Catelyn again is unnecessary, even if there was enough time on the show for every detail that was in the books.

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The TV Peytr is a different character. The medium isn't great at subtlety, and in the books he's all subtlety. TV Peytr gets snippy with Cersei (throwing the incest accusation in her face? Where's the upside in that?) and engages in extended monologues about how he hates everyone born higher than he is.

He's also much more hands on as a pimp. In the novels I always got the sense that the brothels were just one more item in a long list of investments. Based on Tyrion's description of LF's financial books, LF seems to have invented leveraged investing (Tyrion's a very bright guy, and struggles to follow how Baelish is balancing his books). Managing a single upscale brothel is a waste of his talents.

The show is going in a different direction. TV LF doesn't have the same level of self-control and seems less skilled (and at a diminished level of importance) as a financier.

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Why is it hard to fathom? You're speculating what Littlefinger absolutely might do if YOU wrote the book because that's your opinion but that doesn't mean I or anyone else has to think its that simple. Or as we have seen in the show, HBO producers write it how they think it should be played. Myself and most others? We're referring to how Littlefinger is written by George R R Martin and he is not that weird, creepy, predatory. Sure, there are some low-ball slimy things he does, but not act like a thug. A lot is left up to the imagination of the reader, which is one of the gifts Martin has as a writer. He never HAD to say this sort of stuff the way HBO is hitting us over the head with it. It was implied and the reader made their own character portraits from the scenes given. I'm not sure why you're really bent on saying this absolutely would happen when it didn't. The scene was nowhere in the books nor was Ros or any of the brothel details.

Of course this is just an adaptation and of course HBO is well within the boundaries of the plot to change character portrayals how they see fit for their viewing audience that typically, like past popular series (Sopranos, Deadwood etc) the truth is, viewers like their drama heavy and dripping with sex and violence. That's why these books DO translate well to film.

I still stand by my opinion the scene gave little substance or value to the story. I've defended the addition of Ros to the cast many times, but not this time.

I still stand by mine that they portray Littlefinger exactly the way that I, and obviously the GOT show creators, pictured him.

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Perhaps there is a gender division here, with the ladies describing LF as a predator and some of the guys not quite seeing it?

He is my favourite character in the book but I see him very much as a predator. In my view he is clearly "grooming" Sansa, depriving her of her family roots, hedging her around with threats, isolating her physically and psychically... In order to become the focus of her existence.

I'm a woman BTW.

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The writers also seems very interested in pushing Petyr's presence on the show while neglecting others. This business with him going to Renly's camp for example and likely seeing Catelyn again is unnecessary, even if there was enough time on the show for every detail that was in the books.

I think there is a clear reason for this, don't forget GRR Martin is on board, I suspect Petyr will be a major player, hence the continual underlining his character is being subject to.

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I don't think anyone would say this is scene was out of character for Petyr (unlike last week's scene). This scene gives good insight... if the show had time for it. The problem is more that educating the audience on Petyr's selfishness is low on the priority list of topics. There is too much left out to justify this scene; and was likely made as an excuse to give Ros more screen time. The writers also seems very interested in pushing Petyr's presence on the show while neglecting others. This business with him going to Renly's camp for example and likely seeing Catelyn again is unnecessary, even if there was enough time on the show for every detail that was in the books.

I just don't understand how anyone can think that Ros' screen time is ever about her. Every single scene she's in is about some other, important character and she's being used instead of having X amount of extras in various scenes. Both for familiarity, and in order to have someone that can actually act with the bigger actors.

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The term 'sexual predator' is a modern term. This term exists today (and did not exist in a medieval setting such as GRRM has created) because we modern folk have made it up. It's the best modern term available to help describe Littlefinger. The best thing about GRRM's writing is his use of subtly. Since we don't have a Littlefinger POV, we only learn about his nature through other characters observations. We learn through these other POV's that Littlefinger runs a brothel, we learn that he mistreats the whores in his brothel, we learn that he sells the very vulnerable off to other predators, we learn that he preys on Lysa by using sex and the memory of sex, we learn that he's using very sexual behavior to groom and coerce Sansa. This is predatory behavior. I truly and honestly do not understand your confusion. Is there another term that you think more aptly describes Littlefinger?

Have you taken the time to go look up the term sexual predator? It seems like you assume that because Littlefinger has some qualities that seem predatory, and some association with sexual activities, that he can be qualified as a sexual predator because it sounds nice to you. That's not the way it works. I already gave out the definition of sexual predator as I found it online. That term does not apply well to Littlefinger. Sexual predators are focused on sex, and use predatory tactics to stalk their victims. That's not Littlefingers history. He has not been focused on sex at any part of the story to date.

Because the term sexual predator doesnt apply well to Littlefinger, many other terms are better. Calling Littlefinger a criminal mastermind is far more appropriate, for example. But Id wager many people dont like that term as much because it's not much of a personal insult. And what most people are trying to do is cast a character like Littlefinger in the most despicable terms possible, even if they knowingly misuse terms that dont apply.

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Have you taken the time to go look up the term sexual predator? It seems like you assume that because Littlefinger has some qualities that seem predatory, and some association with sexual activities, that he can be qualified as a sexual predator because it sounds nice to you. That's not the way it works. I already gave out the definition of sexual predator as I found it online. That term does not apply well to Littlefinger. Sexual predators are focused on sex, and use predatory tactics to stalk their victims. That's not Littlefingers history. He has not been focused on sex at any part of the story to date.

Because the term sexual predator doesnt apply well to Littlefinger, many other terms are better. Calling Littlefinger a criminal mastermind is far more appropriate, for example. But Id wager many people dont like that term as much because it's not much of a personal insult. And what most people are trying to do is cast a character like Littlefinger in the most despicable terms possible, even if they knowingly misuse terms that dont apply.

Do you really think people want to personally insult LF just for kicks? Calling the man a criminal mastermind is all well and good if you ignore the other unsavoury aspects of his behaviour like grooming Sansa and sourcing young boys for Lyn Corbray. Does "criminal mastermind" apply to this too? What LF is doing is sexually exploiting young children (in the specific case of Cobray) for his own profit. In the case of Sansa, he is isolating her, making her feel as though she can only trust him, and placing her in uncomfortable sexual situations, such as the kissing on the mouth and making her sit in his lap. It is sexually exploitative because he is abusing the power he has over her to compel her into doing these things. I don't know why you have such a problem with a term like sexual predator being used to describe this man's activities, but perhaps instead of accusing others of wanting to denigrate LF, you should look more closely into why you are denying the textual evidence of his sexual predation?

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Do you really think people want to personally insult LF just for kicks? Calling the man a criminal mastermind is all well and good if you ignore the other unsavoury aspects of his behaviour like grooming Sansa and sourcing young boys for Lyn Corbray. Does "criminal mastermind" apply to this too? What LF is doing is sexually exploiting young children (in the specific case of Cobray) for his own profit. In the case of Sansa, he is isolating her, making her feel as though she can only trust him, and placing her in uncomfortable sexual situations, such as the kissing on the mouth and making her sit in his lap. It is sexually exploitative because he is abusing the power he has over her to compel her into doing these things. I don't know why you have such a problem with a term like sexual predator being used to describe this man's activities, but perhaps instead of accusing others of wanting to denigrate LF, you should look more closely into why you are denying the textual evidence of his sexual predation?

You clearly havent looked up the term sexual predator yet. Go do that and stop trying to redefine the word. Go look up mastermind while you're at it.

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A lot of people in the initial thoughts thread, like me, thought the scene with Ros and Littlefinger was unnecessary and wasted time in the episode that could have gone to other more worthy story lines.

Apparently the producers felt it was necessary to better flesh out just how 'sinister' Peter can be based on their interview here:

Inside the Episode:

After watching this narrative of several of the scenes, I better understand the reasoning for the crying Ros scene, but I'm not entirely convinced it was still that necessary. Everyone by now knows how despicable Littlefinger is and how dangerous he can be. Those who haven't read the books undoubtedly believe him to be fairly slimy and immoral even if they don't know yet what's to come with Sansa and the Eyrie, etc.

Perhaps the producers are wrangling with how to chisel down all the political info that was in book 2 and make it easier to digest for television viewers. Dumbing it down would require a lot more exposition and scene manipulating I suppose. Maybe since they added that scene last week with Cersei's play on Littlefinger (which made him look weak), they felt it necessary to add a scene this week to show just how powerful he is, if only behind the scenes in secret.

Yes, as D&D stated, at the base of Littlefinger's suave well groomed appearance and carefully controlled speech is a pimp. He's still just a pimp trying to turn a buck at the expense of human lives.

I hear you. But the added dialogue for HBO LF seems baffling to me when there are better ways to do it without sledgehammering the point through. There were many ways they could have done that - I'm sure you could also imagine a number yourself. We already knew that LF was a treacherous bastard in Season 1. If they wanted to have him be seen as a cold heartless pimp - a brief scene could be shown where he's letting a pado-Lord into a room filled with terrified very young girls - after taking his payment. Door closes. Girls start to scream horribly. Viewer's imagination takes care of the rest. LF walks off, jiggling his gold purse and not giving a damn.

The problem with the HBO dialogue and the Ros crying scene- not to mention the semen wipe - is that it unnecessarily takes away time that could have been devoted to other important events - like explaining who or what were Mel and Stennis and Dragonstone etc..etc..

Yeah I get it that it serves to titillate the audience. But really that's plenty of other opportunities for that. I always thought that the sex scenes in the books served to show how wretched the lives of the ordinary folk were and how horrible things could get when violent men were unleashed - hello Ramsay Snow.

Frankly I'm still upset about 201 when LF openly mocks Cersei and then compounds it with a condesending lecture on knowledge and power - in the same way he did with Varys in Season 1 - anyone familiar with the books would realize that LF was much too clever to do such a stupid act.

Having said that- I'm not too surprised because HBO chose to revamp Renly into a stereotypical gay character. I really wanted to see someone that looked like a younger version of Robert - and who would otherwise seem a sterotypical "king" candidate - ie like the actor who plays King Henry 8th in the Tudors. Then we find out later he's gay - now that's a big surprise we didn't get. Instead we get gay blow jobs and semen wipes. Sorry didn't mean to offend.

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Perhaps there is a gender division here, with the ladies describing LF as a predator and some of the guys not quite seeing it?

He is my favourite character in the book but I see him very much as a predator. In my view he is clearly "grooming" Sansa, depriving her of her family roots, hedging her around with threats, isolating her physically and psychically... In order to become the focus of her existence.

I'm a woman BTW.

I agree that Littlefinger is a predator. He finds and takes advantage of mistakes made by his opponents. He also pretty exploitative and he's got low moral standards. That doesnt necessarily make him a sexual predator though. That term has a pretty specific meaning. It's not just the word sexual thrown together with the term predator on a whim.

We don't really know what's up with Sansa yet. His focus on her might be sexual, or it may be that hes using her to accumulate more power and influence. He may have no sexual interests in Sansa. The bottom line is that we really dont know what's going to happen with that storyline yet, never mind figuring out Littlefinger's motives behind it. Using Sansa to call Littlefinger a sexual predator is just conjecture at this point.

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