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Envie

[Book Spoilers] Crying Ros Scene

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Well, my definition of pimp states that this is a guy who exploits whores and takes away the money they earn for his own benefit. Littlefinger does not command Sansa to have sex with other women. Thus he is not a pimp in his relationship with her. He may want to take her into his own bed eventually, but I very much doubt he intends to make her a prostitute.

Well but at the same time - don't you think he is trying to manipulate her for his own ends? Of course ,he doesn't command her to have sex with him but his careful manipulation of the young girl's emotions is surely wrong don't you think?

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You clearly havent looked up the term sexual predator yet. Go do that and stop trying to redefine the word. Go look up mastermind while you're at it.

Here, taking from the exact same site I'm sure that you used. "The term sexual predator is used pejoratively to describe a person seen as obtaining or trying to obtain sexual contact with another person in a metaphorically "predatory" manner. Analogous to how a predator hunts down its prey, so the sexual predator is thought to "hunt" for his or her sex partners. People who commit sex crimes, such as rape or child sexual abuse, are commonly referred to as sexual predators."

Unless you seriously want to argue that rape and child abuse have sex as a primary motivation then you need to realize that a sexual predator is a person focused on control and power rather then sex. Kind of like how a person might use a naive woman's love to further his ambitions or play kissing games with a girl one minute and insist she call him father the next or runs brothels that includes exploiting young girls.

I understand you don't want Littlefinger being thought of as only a sexual predator and that's fine. Mastermind is going a little too far to though. He's a little man playing little games.

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You clearly havent looked up the term sexual predator yet. Go do that and stop trying to redefine the word. Go look up mastermind while you're at it.

I agree that Littlefinger is a predator. He finds and takes advantage of mistakes made by his opponents. He also pretty exploitative and he's got low moral standards. That doesnt necessarily make him a sexual predator though. That term has a pretty specific meaning. It's not just the word sexual thrown together with the term predator on a whim.

We don't really know what's up with Sansa yet. His focus on her might be sexual, or it may be that hes using her to accumulate more power and influence. He may have no sexual interests in Sansa. The bottom line is that we really dont know what's going to happen with that storyline yet, never mind figuring out Littlefinger's motives behind it. Using Sansa to call Littlefinger a sexual predator is just conjecture at this point.

I don't know what kind of "definition" you found that seems to make you believe that the only way we could classify LF as a sexual predator is if he outright has sex with Sansa. The book has shown the man kissing her and making her sit on his lap. It is truly mystifying what it is about that you find hard to consider as being sexually exploitative, in addition to running brothels, training young girls to be sex workers, and sourcing boys for a paedophile. Sexual predators often don't have to take their pleasure from sex either, but can rely on touching, kissing, intimacy, and other such activities and situations to abuse their victims.

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I really couldn't agree more, with the amount of time it took up they could have spent more time elsewhere. Considering they've got so much to get through...

I dont know if it is worse if you've read the books, because you're there at the screen shouting what on earth is this, why has this been featured!

I spoke to another massive GoT fan and he said he was really happy with it all, I guess I need to look at it from the point that some of the viewers won't have read the books so maybe they need a little bit extra to be able to keep up with what has been missed out. But thinking about it more, there's stuff that happens later in this book which will paint Littlefinger to be not that pleasant.

There was a scene from last week when he was with Cersei and they had a bit of banter, I thought for what purpose is this really!

I don't seem to be as near as critical as I was last week, hopefully as the episodes come and go I'll be a bit more relaxed about it all.

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Here, taking from the exact same site I'm sure that you used. "The term sexual predator is used pejoratively to describe a person seen as obtaining or trying to obtain sexual contact with another person in a metaphorically "predatory" manner. Analogous to how a predator hunts down its prey, so the sexual predator is thought to "hunt" for his or her sex partners. People who commit sex crimes, such as rape or child sexual abuse, are commonly referred to as sexual predators."

Unless you seriously want to argue that rape and child abuse have sex as a primary motivation then you need to realize that a sexual predator is a person focused on control and power rather then sex. Kind of like how a person might use a naive woman's love to further his ambitions or play kissing games with a girl one minute and insist she call him father the next or runs brothels that includes exploiting young girls.

I understand you don't want Littlefinger being thought of as only a sexual predator and that's fine. Mastermind is going a little too far to though. He's a little man playing little games.

Here, taking from the exact same site I'm sure that you used. "The term sexual predator is used pejoratively to describe a person seen as obtaining or trying to obtain sexual contact with another person in a metaphorically "predatory" manner. Analogous to how a predator hunts down its prey, so the sexual predator is thought to "hunt" for his or her sex partners. People who commit sex crimes, such as rape or child sexual abuse, are commonly referred to as sexual predators."

Unless you seriously want to argue that rape and child abuse have sex as a primary motivation then you need to realize that a sexual predator is a person focused on control and power rather then sex. Kind of like how a person might use a naive woman's love to further his ambitions or play kissing games with a girl one minute and insist she call him father the next or runs brothels that includes exploiting young girls.

I understand you don't want Littlefinger being thought of as only a sexual predator and that's fine. Mastermind is going a little too far to though. He's a little man playing little games.

What's troubling to me is the blatant dismissal of textual evidence which shows how the man is grooming Sansa and beginning a pattern of abuse that will in all likelihood escalate. What does this mean for the real world when some of us can't even recognize the signs of sexual abuse. When a grown man is using his power to make a young girl sit on his lap, taking kisses from her under the guise of being "daddy" and we still can't recognize that person as a sexual predator. It's honestly scary.

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I never doubted that Littlefinger takes advantage of and manipulates Sansa. That's not the point here. My point is that TV Littlefinger's treatment of Ros in 'The Night Lands' is out of character for Littlefinger.

1. Littlefinger is no pimp. He owns brothels, but he does not run them personally. This includes that Littlefinger does not punish/teach his whores personally. This was (somewhat) weird last season in the brothel scene, but this was too much in my opinion.

2. Littlefinger is motto is not 'Knowledge is power'. If he had a motto it would be 'Money is power'. The man buys and manipulates people, he is not Varys 2.0; which means, his brothels are not Littlefinger's private secret service thing.

3. Littlefinger would not treat his confidants/lieutenants this way. Besides all talk about 'You can't trust anyone'-stuff, Littlefinger (and Varys) are more dependent than anyone on trusted and loyal servants/tools/right hands. Littlefinger does trust people like Lothor Brune or Oswell Kettleblack, and he is also likely somewhat idolized by these people. They are, after all, more or less lowborn scum like he, and together they rise against the establishment. 'The North remembers' indicated that Ros apparently feels similar towards Littlefinger when she instructed Daisy about 'Lord Baelish' and was confident that Slynt would back down when she mentioned Littlefinger's name.

I'm not that sure about that sexual predator thing. Littlefinger is not motivated by sexual desires all that much. He did not even treat Lysa like shit. He married her, and he made her (somewhat) happy. He would not killed her had she not threatened and tried to kill Sansa. His affections/desires toward Sansa are somewhat weird, but this is not a pattern in my opinion. He is only attracted to Sansa because she is Catelyn 2.0, and he honestly loved Catelyn. Despite owning brothels, Littlefinger does not care about sex and women. That was even established with TV Littlefinger back last season when he rejected Ros's invitation to join them.

TV Littlefinger is just a weird and inconclusive character. The subtlety of book Littlefinger would have worked in the series just as well. Considering Gillen's screen time they would have more than enough to hint his true intentions. Especially since they are doing exactly the right thing with Varys, so I really don't see the point with stupid/clumsy Littlefinger...

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What's troubling to me is the blatant dismissal of textual evidence which shows how the man is grooming Sansa and beginning a pattern of abuse that will in all likelihood escalate. What does this mean for the real world when some of us can't even recognize the signs of sexual abuse. When a grown man is using his power to make a young girl sit on his lap, taking kisses from her under the guise of being "daddy" and we still can't recognize that person as a sexual predator. It's honestly scary.

That's a whole other issue of indiffrence and apathy that that allows that kind of abuse to go many times for years. It's also a prevalent misconception that sex crimes actually have anything to do with sex. We even use the word to preface terms like sex crimes or sexual predator so anyone unable to look past the words into the actual meaning of these acts is just going to keep believing the false notions using the word sex implies.

This also has nothing to do with transferring modern day values onto Westeros. Good grief even Tyrion, who is one of the last people I'd want to use as a moral compass, considers Sansa to be too young to be taken advantage of. I need to find and read the part again but I also seem to remember Cersei not wanting to be told what Littlefinger was going to do with Jeyne Poole even though she alread knew.

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That's a whole other issue of indiffrence and apathy that that allows that kind of abuse to go many times for years. It's also a prevalent misconception that sex crimes actually have anything to do with sex. We even use the word to preface terms like sex crimes or sexual predator so anyone unable to look past the words into the actual meaning of these acts is just going to keep believing the false notions using the word sex implies.

This also has nothing to do with transferring modern day values onto Westeros. Good grief even Tyrion, who is one of the last people I'd want to use as a moral compass, considers Sansa to be too young to be taken advantage of. I need to find and read the part again but I also seem to remember Cersei not wanting to be told what Littlefinger was going to do with Jeyne Poole even though she alread knew.

Tyrion's motives for his sexual stance with Sansa are debatable. It's reasonable to think that he doesnt want to take advantage of Sansa because she is too young. It's also reasonable to think that age has nothing to do with it, and Tyrion doesnt want to take advantage of Sansa because his family murdered her father and holds her prisoner. It may have more to do with the fact that Sansa, regardless of age is still a virgin and an overall innocent and decent person in a horrible situation.

I'd wager that Tyrion's motives lean toward not wanting to litterally screw a sweet girl that his family has already figuratively screwed. That's because his character has typically distanced himself from his family. Tyrion sees himself as having more honor than his brother and sister and father.

I think the focus on Sansa being young is more of a projection made by readers because they feel that any 14 year old girl should not be having sex. It's an understandable emotion, but it's not really relevant to Westeros society. And it doesnt necessarily correspond to Tyrion's character.

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What's troubling to me is the blatant dismissal of textual evidence which shows how the man is grooming Sansa and beginning a pattern of abuse that will in all likelihood escalate. What does this mean for the real world when some of us can't even recognize the signs of sexual abuse. When a grown man is using his power to make a young girl sit on his lap, taking kisses from her under the guise of being "daddy" and we still can't recognize that person as a sexual predator. It's honestly scary.

There was a good deal of evidence that Littlefinger was helping Ed Stark as well. That didnt bear out in the long run.

Also, you should take heart that this is all just a story and no one is actually getting taken advantage of. If you're really scared by the conversations here you probably need to walk back a bit and remember that this is all just fantasy. We are commenting on our own interpretations of a made up story in a fake world. What Littlefinger is doing with Sansa is going to be what GRR Martin tells us that he does. He does an admirable job making the characters believable. But you can't assume that your interpretations of what's going on is going to be accurate yet. Martin may not see things the way you do, and may write his story to end differently than you assume. Considering the twists and turns that this story has taken, I don't think that's too unlikely of an outcome.

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Have you taken the time to go look up the term sexual predator? It seems like you assume that because Littlefinger has some qualities that seem predatory, and some association with sexual activities, that he can be qualified as a sexual predator because it sounds nice to you. That's not the way it works. I already gave out the definition of sexual predator as I found it online. That term does not apply well to Littlefinger. Sexual predators are focused on sex, and use predatory tactics to stalk their victims. That's not Littlefingers history. He has not been focused on sex at any part of the story to date.

Because the term sexual predator doesnt apply well to Littlefinger, many other terms are better. Calling Littlefinger a criminal mastermind is far more appropriate, for example. But Id wager many people dont like that term as much because it's not much of a personal insult. And what most people are trying to do is cast a character like Littlefinger in the most despicable terms possible, even if they knowingly misuse terms that dont apply.

There is no dictionary, wikipedia article or legal review that will twist the term 'sexual predator' into one you are trying to make it. Sexual predation is not simply about the act of sex itself.

I'm not trying to make LF into a despicable character. GRRM has made him a despicable character. We are given very clear textual evidence that he is despicable. Sexual predation is part of his despicable nature. This does not mean that there is no other term to describe his other behaviors. He's had his hand in murder, exploitation, slavery, instigating war, giving false testimony, political corruption, and betrayal. One can be a sexual predator and still be a criminal mastermind (though I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say he's a mastermind, though he is most certainly head of a pretty nasty criminal ring). LF can be a sexual predator and still be called an economic genius. He can be a sexual predator and also be a good employer to his underlings. He can even be a sexual predator and a predator of the vulnerable. He can even be a sexual predator and a good lover to his wife.

Throughout the series, GRRM has given us a number of subtle hints that LF is a very dirty, despicable sexual predator. We didn't see his sexual predation for certain until he brought Sansa to the Eyrie. It doesn't matter if his future plans include using Sansa in his game of thrones power play, it doesn't even matter if he never sticks his penis inside her vagina. The fact is, he is using every grooming technique in the sexual predators playbook. We know Sansa is not comfortable being stared at as though she's naked, or being made to kiss this man that could be her father, nor being made to sit on his lap. But we also know that LF is making her feel as though she must do it because he's all she's has. Sexual predation 101.

If Littlefinger existed here in this time with our laws, his list of charges would be long and sexual predation would most definitely be on it.

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Tyrion's motives for his sexual stance with Sansa are debatable. It's reasonable to think that he doesnt want to take advantage of Sansa because she is too young. It's also reasonable to think that age has nothing to do with it, and Tyrion doesnt want to take advantage of Sansa because his family murdered her father and holds her prisoner. It may have more to do with the fact that Sansa, regardless of age is still a virgin and an overall innocent and decent person in a horrible situation.

I'd wager that Tyrion's motives lean toward not wanting to litterally screw a sweet girl that his family has already figuratively screwed. That's because his character has typically distanced himself from his family. Tyrion sees himself as having more honor than his brother and sister and father.

I think the focus on Sansa being young is more of a projection made by readers because they feel that any 14 year old girl should not be having sex. It's an understandable emotion, but it's not really relevant to Westeros society. And it doesnt necessarily correspond to Tyrion's character.

It kind of helps that he consistently thinks of her as too young and refers to her as his child bride.

I also want to acknowledge the possibilty that your difficulty in understanding the term sexual predator could be due to a language barrier. I don't know where you are from but here in the u.s. where the term originated it is always understood to refer to a person committing sex crimes. I've already explained how sex crimes, despite using the word sex, have little do with the sex as a primary motivation so I won't go into that again.

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I hear you. But the added dialogue for HBO LF seems baffling to me when there are better ways to do it without sledgehammering the point through. There were many ways they could have done that - I'm sure you could also imagine a number yourself. We already knew that LF was a treacherous bastard in Season 1. If they wanted to have him be seen as a cold heartless pimp - a brief scene could be shown where he's letting a pado-Lord into a room filled with terrified very young girls - after taking his payment. Door closes. Girls start to scream horribly. Viewer's imagination takes care of the rest. LF walks off, jiggling his gold purse and not giving a damn.

The problem with the HBO dialogue and the Ros crying scene- not to mention the semen wipe - is that it unnecessarily takes away time that could have been devoted to other important events - like explaining who or what were Mel and Stennis and Dragonstone etc..etc..

Hi, thanks for putting the topic back on track while it keeps going astray for pages about whether or not Littlefinger is a pedophile or sexual predator. That's all later in the books / series dealing with Sansa and I'm sure there will be exhaustingly long debates raging over how inappropriate or wrong it all is. In fact, i'm curious whether they'll even allow a kiss between the actors for LF and Sansa considering how touchy most are watching anything pedo related. But that's LATER!

My topic is about Ros, and the scene most are voting as unnecessary filler that does nothing to further anyone's opinion of Littlefinger's reputation as most, even those who never read the books, were pretty clear on that from season 1.

I quoted your remark because its a good point I probably failed to make. There are plenty of ways to continue showcasing Lord Baelish and 'money is power' (not knowledge as he says to cersei because we all know LF gets his power from buying people for knowledge). Plenty of opportunities we've already had and didn't need.

I liked Ros in season 1 because she gave much needed sexposition opportunities to reveal bits of secrets and plots that can't otherwise easily be translated from book to film.

In season 2, so far, it feels like they aren't quite sure what to do with Ros anymore, but she's cast for another season so for two episodes they've 'thrown her in' two scenes like some boring side dish just to make the meal look bigger. They left out major scenes with major characters altogether this week (hello what's Robb up to...you know, in the WAR?) in favor of a rather long, tediously whispered scene with Littlefinger being scary little pimp villain? Really? And folks here continue to defend it and the producers opinion of its importance? Whatever.

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In season 2, so far, it feels like they aren't quite sure what to do with Ros anymore, but she's cast for another season so for two episodes they've 'thrown her in' two scenes like some boring side dish just to make the meal look bigger. They left out major scenes with major characters altogether this week (hello what's Robb up to...you know, in the WAR?) in favor of a rather long, tediously whispered scene with Littlefinger being scary little pimp villain? Really? And folks here continue to defend it and the producers opinion of its importance? Whatever.

Do you consider the scene useless in total because you wish the time had been better spent on another character, or because you don't think it portrayed LF accurately. IMO, this whole conversation about Sansa is integral to appreciating the value of that scene, so I don't consider it off topic at all. The scene wasn't about Ros, it was meant to highlight LF, and he is one of the major, major players in the Game of Thrones. Arguably everything that has gone wrong can be traced back to his initial machinations. I think the scene with Ros was meant to parallel the one Varys has with Tyrion and Shae. To show these men appearing to be all charming, but the veiled threats are underneath the surface. These aren't nice men, no matter how much they appear to be so, and in LF's case, seeing him threatening Ros was useful, because he's involved later on in the sexual enslavement of a child - taking Jeyne to one of his brothels to be trained, and in the sexual grooming of another. He abuses women under his control essentially, so we see it now with Ros, and we see it later with Lysa, Jeyne and Sansa. It isn't just simply to highlight that "money is power" to LF and I disagree that this is his motto anyways. It's to show that money, sex, power are all mixed into the twisted operations of this man.

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Hi, thanks for putting the topic back on track while it keeps going astray for pages about whether or not Littlefinger is a pedophile or sexual predator. That's all later in the books / series dealing with Sansa and I'm sure there will be exhaustingly long debates raging over how inappropriate or wrong it all is. In fact, i'm curious whether they'll even allow a kiss between the actors for LF and Sansa considering how touchy most are watching anything pedo related. But that's LATER!

My topic is about Ros, and the scene most are voting as unnecessary filler that does nothing to further anyone's opinion of Littlefinger's reputation as most, even those who never read the books, were pretty clear on that from season 1.

I quoted your remark because its a good point I probably failed to make. There are plenty of ways to continue showcasing Lord Baelish and 'money is power' (not knowledge as he says to cersei because we all know LF gets his power from buying people for knowledge). Plenty of opportunities we've already had and didn't need.

I liked Ros in season 1 because she gave much needed sexposition opportunities to reveal bits of secrets and plots that can't otherwise easily be translated from book to film.

In season 2, so far, it feels like they aren't quite sure what to do with Ros anymore, but she's cast for another season so for two episodes they've 'thrown her in' two scenes like some boring side dish just to make the meal look bigger. They left out major scenes with major characters altogether this week (hello what's Robb up to...you know, in the WAR?) in favor of a rather long, tediously whispered scene with Littlefinger being scary little pimp villain? Really? And folks here continue to defend it and the producers opinion of its importance? Whatever.

You're right of course. I know I personally am going too far afield and looking ahead of where the tv series is. Are my remarks about Tyrion considered spoilers? If someone can let me know I'll delete them.

I keep having this bad feeling Ros is being set up as a foil to Littlefinger. In the first season she is indeed going from one character to the next to reveal a more intimate view of their personalities but now at least so far she's being shown exclusively with Littlefinger and seemingly being setup to be the one that sees beneath his smiles and witty remarks. Hopefully that's just wild speculation though.

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It kind of helps that he consistently thinks of her as too young and refers to her as his child bride.

I also want to acknowledge the possibilty that your difficulty in understanding the term sexual predator could be due to a language barrier. I don't know where you are from but here in the u.s. where the term originated it is always understood to refer to a person committing sex crimes. I've already explained how sex crimes, despite using the word sex, have little do with the sex as a primary motivation so I won't go into that again.

Im American. Im not having difficulty understanding Sexual Predator as a term. In fact, I made sure that I looked it up before commenting on it. Its clear from reading most posts from people who are arguing against me that not everyone actually bothered to find out what the term actually means. It's a bit like people arguing over what a hate crime is and telling me that because someone was hateful and someone committed a crime, that said person committed a hate crime. That's not how things work. The term is what the term is. Littlefinger engaging in activities where other people are taken advantage of sexually do not make him fit the definition of a sexual predator. Saying that littlefinger may have had a factor into selling children into slavery dont make him a sexual predator. Those are despicable activities for sure, but suggesting that they indicate he's a sexual predator only confirms that someone doesnt understand what the term sexual predator represents.

My take was that sexual predator is not a particularly good fit for Littlefinger. If you want to you can make an argument for him being a sex predator, but it's a weak argument that doesnt apply to Westeros at all and can't be borne out by the facts of what's going on in the books. The closest thing you come to is the conjecture that all of Littlefinger's acts are in hopes of bedding Sansa. That may or may not be true. Otherwise Littlefinger has shown very little interest in pursuing sex with anyone.

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Do you consider the scene useless in total because you wish the time had been better spent on another character, or because you don't think it portrayed LF accurately. IMO, this whole conversation about Sansa is integral to appreciating the value of that scene, so I don't consider it off topic at all. The scene wasn't about Ros, it was meant to highlight LF, and he is one of the major, major players in the Game of Thrones. Arguably everything that has gone wrong can be traced back to his initial machinations. I think the scene with Ros was meant to parallel the one Varys has with Tyrion and Shae. To show these men appearing to be all charming, but the veiled threats are underneath the surface. These aren't nice men, no matter how much they appear to be so, and in LF's case, seeing him threatening Ros was useful, because he's involved later on in the sexual enslavement of a child - taking Jeyne to one of his brothels to be trained, and in the sexual grooming of another. He abuses women under his control essentially, so we see it now with Ros, and we see it later with Lysa, Jeyne and Sansa. It isn't just simply to highlight that "money is power" to LF and I disagree that this is his motto anyways. It's to show that money, sex, power are all mixed into the twisted operations of this man.

I'm not going to keep going in to detail why I think they've already showed quite enough for anyone, even those who don't read the books, just how despicable Littlefinger is capable of being. To answer your question, yes, I'm stating Ros and her crying scene wasn't necessary and they seem to think (from the interview clip I linked in my OP) that we all need to be hit over the head with a sledgehammer to understand Littlefinger is a bad man. Yes, I think we've got that now.

Summary bottom line and then I'm done with the thread: 53-59 minutes of filming each week is precious little time to cram in so many details from the second book as it was a whopper of political intrigue and backstabbing leading up to the pinnacle of King's Landing battles. So many people die (important characters), so many people come into power (Tyrion) or lose power. All that massive plot and politics (of which only a fraction has anything to do with Littlefinger), and yet they feel its vitally necessary to waste 5 minutes of an episode on Littlefinger's evil whispers to a whore that didn't even exist in the books.

That's my bottom line opinion. Everyone else certainly has their own as to whether or not its important and again, obviously the producers felt it was important or they wouldn't have taken the time to film it. I have agreed with almost ALL of the scenes cast so far in the series. This one little one annoyed me enough to start a discussion about it. I do appreciate everyone's differing perspectives on it and it has given me some things to think about (as in the future roles LF will take in the series in relation to how he's portrayed in the books) - so its all good!

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Littlefinger is already shown as a 'bad man', but in a series that prides itself on not being just black and white, maybe they're trying to add some refinement to the character. It all comes down to opinion I know but I see Littlefinger as a man that sees people as objects or as he refers to them, as pawns. In the first book the only real reference he makes towards his whores is how they are a solid investment. Now here in the show he is explaining to a whore how she is nothing but an investment going bad and if that doesn't change all he can do is try to recoup his losses. Unless they start flashing subliminal messages of Peter standing over the Red Keep with puppet strings attached to his fingers they have to show some personal interaction with him to show how he sees people and his world.

As for the voyeurism scene I see that as a visual reminder that this is the Game of Thrones, there's always someody watching. They don't seem to be placing the same emphasis on the little birds in the show as the books where no one seems to talk without thinking about how there are always little birds about and there is truly no place private in Kings Landing.

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I think this entire thread, including the parts that veered off into what LF is doing in book 4 has really helped flesh out why this particular scene was included in the episode. It's made me reconsider how necessary this type of scene is for a TV audience. We book readers are given lots of subtle hints about LF's character in the first two books. He's seems like a behind-the-scenes guy in the books because he's not often in the presence of POV characters. However, once he steals Sansa, we learn all. I don't think it would make sense for TV if Littlefinger is never seen to be doing anything despicable and then he suddenly shows up on a midnight boat carrying Sansa off to the Vale and says "surprise. I was totally the man who was behind all the little plots. I'm a dirty scoundrel and, without warning, I'm going to start grooming Sansa in a dirty sexual predator sort of way." The crying Ros scene becomes a pretty important part to building up what we book readers know where LF is going. I'm glad for how far into the future this discussion has gone because it reminds me that not everyone watching the show has or will read the books and I'm learning a little bit about how producers are able to successfully adapt an author's work.

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Hi , am new to this forum so please bear with me,

Have any of you thought LF was telling Ros the story of Tyrions wife Tysha, (maybe a catch up from when Bronn, Shae and T where in the tent before the first battle), and a spoiler of sorts.

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